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Thread: Timing chain lubrication

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    Timing chain lubrication

    Does anybody know the correct diameter of the hole on the oil spray nozzle for the timing chain?

    It is 1.5mm on mine and is this correct?

    I'm not sure what mods a previous engine builder may have made.

    If it is too big it is an obvious cause of lower oil pressure.

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    Legendary Lancista Marnix's Avatar
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    Re: Timing chain lubrication

    I have not the faintest idea, never measured it. But I have a NOS crankcase, never used or manipulated, (for Fulvia S1, I don't know if the nozzle would have changed over time)) laying around in my workshop. Will see if I can measure it this afternoon.
    Lancia Fulvia 2C 1964
    Lancia Fulvia Coupe Rallye 1,3 1968
    Porsche 924 1979
    Alfa Romeo 33 1.4IE 1993

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    Re: Timing chain lubrication

    Damn, seeing this thread, I forgot to have a look and measur when I was at my workshop Sorry.

    I will see if I can have a quick check tommorow.

    But as far as oil pressure is concerned, I can give some tips:

    1. the oil pressure instrument is from "Veglia", and as Martin from Omicron used to tell me, the indication is rather "vague". Lancia only gives as indication that at 100km/h it should be at or above the 30 mark. I always found it strange they specify a car speed rather than an RPM. Let's say: above 3000 RPM. Even when the instrument indicates zero at idle, there is still considerable oil pressure actually (switch off the engine, and you will find the needle drops to below zero). Do not trust the values given by the instrument of the car, the pressure sender has tendency to age and give wrong values. The car instrument is only good at indicating if there is some oil pressure at all, and if it behaves correctly with engine RPM (rising when RPM goes up). Only way of having a reliable reading is actually connect a more accurate external pressure reading device. A drag to connect it tho.
    2. first suspect of low oil pressure is the oil pump itself: when it starts wearing out, some of the oil being pumped leaks back inside the pump, resulting in less oil pressure.
    3. if there is consistently rather low pressure, could be the overpressure valve in the oil filter mounting block stuck (partially) open.
    4. If there is generally low pressure, could be the bearings at the pistons on the cranshaft being worn out, and leaving too much opening to keep up the pressure. Same for the valve trains in the head. Or the water pump drive gear. Or the hydraulic chain tensioner.

    My engine was rebuild to virtually new by Huib, and we painstakely checked all tolerance specified by Lancia on all parts that are oiled by oil pressure (and it was a pain, I can tell you). With a rebuild oil pump, and all tolerances to new, I have oil pressure going over the 30 mark slightly below 2000 RPM, and at almost full scale anything above 3000 RPM (it is actually at max, the overpressure valve opens).
    Lancia Fulvia 2C 1964
    Lancia Fulvia Coupe Rallye 1,3 1968
    Porsche 924 1979
    Alfa Romeo 33 1.4IE 1993

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    Re: Timing chain lubrication

    Quote Originally Posted by Langap View Post
    Does anybody know the correct diameter of the hole on the oil spray nozzle for the timing chain?

    It is 1.5mm on mine and is this correct?

    I'm not sure what mods a previous engine builder may have made.

    If it is too big it is an obvious cause of lower oil pressure.
    I soldered mine shut and redrilled With 1,0 mm. drill. I got this info from experienced engine builders on this forum.
    Even 0,5 mm. should be ok according to a well known engine tuner..

    But mostly you loose pressure to the cams. They can do ok With less flow.

    Cheers

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    Re: Timing chain lubrication

    Soldering or welding shut and then drilling a less than 1mm dia hole will be more than ok if you can find a drill that small ( Used a drill for carburator jets (0.5mm). Together with reduced oil passages to the head (you need to have the cilinderblock off) this will dramatically increase oilpressure and is a cheap and very worthwhile modification if you are rebuilding your engine anyway.

    cheers,
    william

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    Re: Timing chain lubrication

    Maybe I should explain the reason for my query.

    I'm rebuilding a 1.3 rally engine, 818303, which has a nicely ported cylinder head, webers and exhaust manifold. I'm fitting new cams as one of the old cams wore one of the lobes on the exhaust cam. The cam follower wore through the hard face of the reprofiled cam. I'm cautious therefore about reducing oil flow to the cylinder head.

    The nub of the problem is oil surge under cornering and braking and I want to ensure that the available oil gets to the right places.

    I cannot do a track day or hill climb without getting the 15 psi oil light flashing. I have excellent oil pressure on start up and normal running.

    I've tried to improve the sump baffle as in the attached photo. Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ZV  sump.jpg 
Views:	25 
Size:	176.6 KB 
ID:	12394

    Has anybody got a better design or mods to the standard sump?

    I've also just got an S3 sump which has the drain plug at the end rather than the middle of the pan which might be a slight improvement.

    I'm wondering whether I have the correct amount of oil in the engine? I know the dipstick collar can't move but could the dipstick tube have been moved down by a previous owner? I filll the engine to 5mm over the full mark on the dipstick. That has helped a little.

    How would one check the oil level is optimal? what is the optimal oil level? should one fill to the nominal sump capacity or a little more?

    Now that I'm rebuilding with a regrind crankshaft I want to get it right, obviously.

    All observations greatly appreciated.

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    Legendary Lancista Marnix's Avatar
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    Re: Timing chain lubrication

    The problem of surging in fast cornering (and probably up hill racing as well) is a known problem of series 1 Fulvia.The strainer comes a bit high (if it is the one with the filter plate fixed with screws to the strainer funnel). Lancia improved on the design in the second series, with an oil strainer that sits lower (the filter plate press fitted). Since now the strainer gets rather low, the oil drain plug was getting in the way (it is in the middle of the sump cover for S1, like I see it on your picture), so they moved the oil drain plug to the rear, out of the way, on second series sump covers. These S2 parts seem to be compatible with S1 engines, so if you can get hold of strainer and sump cover of a S2, you could change them on your engine. Should mostly fix the problem. Never done myself, but I don't go racing.
    Lancia Fulvia 2C 1964
    Lancia Fulvia Coupe Rallye 1,3 1968
    Porsche 924 1979
    Alfa Romeo 33 1.4IE 1993

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    Re: Timing chain lubrication

    Quote Originally Posted by Langap View Post
    Maybe I should explain the reason for my query.

    I'm rebuilding a 1.3 rally engine, 818303, which has a nicely ported cylinder head, webers and exhaust manifold. I'm fitting new cams as one of the old cams wore one of the lobes on the exhaust cam. The cam follower wore through the hard face of the reprofiled cam. I'm cautious therefore about reducing oil flow to the cylinder head.

    The nub of the problem is oil surge under cornering and braking and I want to ensure that the available oil gets to the right places.

    I cannot do a track day or hill climb without getting the 15 psi oil light flashing. I have excellent oil pressure on start up and normal running.

    I've tried to improve the sump baffle as in the attached photo. Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ZV  sump.jpg 
Views:	25 
Size:	176.6 KB 
ID:	12394

    Has anybody got a better design or mods to the standard sump?

    I've also just got an S3 sump which has the drain plug at the end rather than the middle of the pan which might be a slight improvement.

    I'm wondering whether I have the correct amount of oil in the engine? I know the dipstick collar can't move but could the dipstick tube have been moved down by a previous owner? I filll the engine to 5mm over the full mark on the dipstick. That has helped a little.

    How would one check the oil level is optimal? what is the optimal oil level? should one fill to the nominal sump capacity or a little more?

    Now that I'm rebuilding with a regrind crankshaft I want to get it right, obviously.

    All observations greatly appreciated.
    My S1 1,3 HF dipstick measures 402 mm. between the underside of the welded "hat" and MAX level mark. This dipstick have snapped above the "hat" sometime and rewelded. Would be great if someone With S1 car could confirm correct length.

    Cheers

    Tor

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    Re: Timing chain lubrication

    OK, TWO things to check in my workshop this afternoon.
    Lancia Fulvia 2C 1964
    Lancia Fulvia Coupe Rallye 1,3 1968
    Porsche 924 1979
    Alfa Romeo 33 1.4IE 1993

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    Re: Timing chain lubrication

    Quote Originally Posted by Marnix View Post
    The problem of surging in fast cornering (and probably up hill racing as well) is a known problem of series 1 Fulvia.The strainer comes a bit high (if it is the one with the filter plate fixed with screws to the strainer funnel). Lancia improved on the design in the second series, with an oil strainer that sits lower (the filter plate press fitted). Since now the strainer gets rather low, the oil drain plug was getting in the way (it is in the middle of the sump cover for S1, like I see it on your picture), so they moved the oil drain plug to the rear, out of the way, on second series sump covers. These S2 parts seem to be compatible with S1 engines, so if you can get hold of strainer and sump cover of a S2, you could change them on your engine. Should mostly fix the problem. Never done myself, but I don't go racing.
    Marnix and Langap

    Went Down in my shop and bolted the flange of the top end of the filter plate to the front engine cover. Placed it on the sump pan and measured the distance between the gause and the inside bottom of of the sump pan (measured through the hole for the sump plug).

    Distance was 26 mm. at the back without any gaskets. With gaskets perhaps 27-28 mm. Although the funnel had an angle, it sloped a bit closer to the front, I think it is possible to machine a ring to get the gause closer to the bottom.

    Maybe if the ring is sloped same angle, it would lower the intake gause by 15 mm. or so.

    Tor

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