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Thread: Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

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    Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

    I'm putting the pieces together to put TMH taller 5th gears in my coupe. So far I can't find new Lancia type ring nuts to help make the notched wrench the job needs. Lancia nuts have been superseded by a regular faceted Fiat cam nut - which I guess I'll use as replacements - but they're no help making the wrench which is cut using a 1 1/16 inch socket. Does anyone have an old Lancia type ring bolt lying around/buried some where or a wrench I could copy? I'll pay rent! With the end cover off I guess I could mark from the ring nuts in place, but I know it will be more accurate to use a nut in hand. I'll post this too on the Scorpion/Monte forum.
    Johnny Keppelman, 1.3 Fulvia coupe project, 81 Beta Coupe (original owner)

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    Re: Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeppelmanJ View Post
    I'm putting the pieces together to put TMH taller 5th gears in my coupe. So far I can't find new Lancia type ring nuts to help make the notched wrench the job needs. Lancia nuts have been superseded by a regular faceted Fiat cam nut - which I guess I'll use as replacements - but they're no help making the wrench which is cut using a 1 1/16 inch socket. Does anyone have an old Lancia type ring bolt lying around/buried some where or a wrench I could copy? I'll pay rent! With the end cover off I guess I could mark from the ring nuts in place, but I know it will be more accurate to use a nut in hand. I'll post this too on the Scorpion/Monte forum.
    I have a used nut, the socket I made and CAD model of the business end of the thing. I could also make you a measured drawing of the socket if you want. I would prefer not to send the tool itself. My own transmission project is still in the disassembled phase so I'm going to need it to put the thing back together at some point. Besides, it would deprive you of the pleasure of making one :-). If you get desperate, I'm sure we can work something out.


    Did you try Midwest for an OEM nut? They listed it as out of stock but I was able to buy two a few months back. P/N 82310116. FYI, the tool is P/N 88021074.

    Let me know what I can do to help.

    PV


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    1974 Fiat X1/9
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    Re: Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

    I assume I can dispense with the GD&T for this excercise.....

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    1974 Fiat X1/9
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    Re: Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

    Johnny, you should be able to make the tool from LanciaPaul's drawing.
    you can make such tool from a short piece of gas pipe (or other heavy pipe) if you can find one with 31 mm ID. I once needed such tool (but bigger and 6 prongs) for an Alfa , and filed it by hand from a 35 mm gas pipe, a lot easier to work on than a socket. To turn it I used a large pipe wrench , worked fine.
    Good luck, Herb

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    Re: Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

    Paul, thanks for your reply, photo and detailed drawing. I'm not desperate yet but I need to get at it. I'd like to make the ALC west coast reunion in Santa Cruz in early May, a little over a month away and about 1k miles south. Your drawing including the finger widths is especially confidence making! I did try Bayless. They were off to an event but offered to look next week for a used ring nut as a guide. I'll let you know how it goes. I'm eager to find out how much quieter lopping off 700 rpm at 70 mph makes the car!
    Johnny Keppelman, 1.3 Fulvia coupe project, 81 Beta Coupe (original owner)

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    Re: Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

    I made a tool from a inexpensive socket cutting out four sections with a dremmel rotary tool, worked great! On a side note replacing the left stub axel seal and having difficulty finding the correct one. Midwest Bayless has it listed but its too small 53mm OD, my seal is 58mm OD diameter. Are you replacing yours if so did you find a replacement?

    Jeff

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    Re: Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by movingim View Post
    I made a tool from a inexpensive socket cutting out four sections with a dremmel rotary tool, worked great! On a side note replacing the left stub axel seal and having difficulty finding the correct one. Midwest Bayless has it listed but its too small 53mm OD, my seal is 58mm OD diameter. Are you replacing yours if so did you find a replacement?

    Jeff
    The right hand and left hand seals are different. The seal lips are designed for a specific hand of rotation so you need to make sure that the left one goes on the left hand side and the right one goes on the right hand side. Since the lip features that make the seal LH rotation or RH rotaion are very small and not obvious, the Lancia engineers made the OD of the seal cans different so that you couldn't put them in backwards.

    Part numbers are:
    Output Seal LH 40001600
    Output Seal RH 40001610
    1974 Fiat X1/9
    1981 Lancia Zagato

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    Re: Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

    Yes the 40001600 is 50mm OD and 4001610 is 53mm OD, the Left Stub Axel Seal I pulled off the 79 coupe is 58mm OD, have not been able to source this seal with helix (Rotation) yet, Talked to Matt at Midwest Bayless and he only has the 50mm and 53mm ones, what year was your coupe? wonder if there was change on later models?
    Quote Originally Posted by LanciaPaul View Post
    The right hand and left hand seals are different. The seal lips are designed for a specific hand of rotation so you need to make sure that the left one goes on the left hand side and the right one goes on the right hand side. Since the lip features that make the seal LH rotation or RH rotaion are very small and not obvious, the Lancia engineers made the OD of the seal cans different so that you couldn't put them in backwards.

    Part numbers are:
    Output Seal LH 40001600
    Output Seal RH 40001610

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    Re: Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by movingim View Post
    Yes the 40001600 is 50mm OD and 4001610 is 53mm OD, the Left Stub Axel Seal I pulled off the 79 coupe is 58mm OD, have not been able to source this seal with helix (Rotation) yet, Talked to Matt at Midwest Bayless and he only has the 50mm and 53mm ones, what year was your coupe? wonder if there was change on later models?
    Odd. Any pictures you can share? You have piqued my curiosity.

    There is a four volume parts catalog on-line for the Beta located here:
    http://www.italian-cars-club.com/Squ...Techniques.htm

    The transmission is in catalogue #2
    http://www.italian-cars-club.com/Squ...achees-2-4.pdf

    This is definately pre-1979 and it lists the same part number that I provided above.

    So, there are a few possibilities. Perhaps someone along the line has machined the endplate oversized to accept a seal they had or perhaps it is some odd-ball thing that was only used breifly mid-run? Who knows.

    What you could do about it:
    1. Measure the shaft and the bore and the width of the old seal and buy a bi-directional catalog seal in the right size. Look very closely at your existing seal and it might have the size molded into it. Viton or Buna-N (Nitrile) material. Spring side is the wet side. Looks like the shaft is 35mm so there is a standard seal size that is 35x58x10. Don't know if the width would work for you. https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...x10/18443047-P
    2. Buy a used left-hand endplate (82309345?) that has the "correct" 50mm bore and use the Midwest seal. Problem is that the endplate also controls the diff bearing pre-load so you would have to compensate for any difference in height with shims of by removing metal. Might get lucky and find it dead-on. http://www.ebay.it/itm/Coperchio-Sca...MAAOSw-vlVgsMo
    3. Make a bushing to press into your existing endplate that adapts it down to 50mm. A rule of thumb is .001" press per 1" of diameter for the OD of the bushing. For the ID (where the seal goes) put a 15° to 30° lead-in chamfer and make the bore a nominal press of .005" for a steel OD seal or .008" for a rubber encapsulated OD seal. +/-.001" tolerance.



    I just bought the two seals, but have not put them in yet. The trans is all apart in boxes but I think I still have the old seals so I'll measure my endplates, old seals and new seals and repot back. My car is actually an '81 US spec Zagato not a coupe. It's incognito as a seventy-something Euro Spyder.
    1974 Fiat X1/9
    1981 Lancia Zagato

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    Re: Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by movingim View Post
    Yes the 40001600 is 50mm OD and 4001610 is 53mm OD, the Left Stub Axel Seal I pulled off the 79 coupe is 58mm OD, have not been able to source this seal with helix (Rotation) yet, Talked to Matt at Midwest Bayless and he only has the 50mm and 53mm ones, what year was your coupe? wonder if there was change on later models?
    So I checked out the seal situation last night. The larger seal is actually not 53mm. It is 52mm. The smaller one is 50mm. My used ones match-up with the new ones and obviously, the endplates as well. Like I said, there are standard seals in 35x58x10 and it looks like there are even 35x58x8, but 35x58x9 is an oddball. There is a Japanese (Nissan?) outboard engine that uses one.

    http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/to...7-00121-0.html

    I have no idea if it is directional or if it is, which direction it is for. Be aware that a directional oil seal pumps oil at a high rate. If you put the wrong roation seal in, it will literally pump oil out of the gearbox.




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    1974 Fiat X1/9
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