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Thread: Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

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    Re: Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

    Ok, back to the original subject for a minute. John Stuckey lent me a wrench I only needed to customize slightly to remove the 5th gear ring nuts. The Fiat hex nuts Obert sent we're way too large so we reused the Lancia ring nuts staking them (inevitably, it seems) in new spots. The gears are as advertised taller by 700 rpm at 70. So at 3X rpm in 5th the car is going about 73 mph. As I had hoped it's noticeably quieter!
    Johnny Keppelman, 1.3 Fulvia coupe project, 81 Beta Coupe (original owner)

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    Re: Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

    Your right its 52mm my mistake, anyway here's some photos of the seal from the right stub axel which is 38x58x12 along with the housing which neither that or the axel look to be altered and or machined. Thanks for all your help so far, there is is company I going to contact Friday to see if they have one with the proper helix.

    Jeff

    Quote Originally Posted by LanciaPaul View Post
    So I checked out the seal situation last night. The larger seal is actually not 53mm. It is 52mm. The smaller one is 50mm. My used ones match-up with the new ones and obviously, the endplates as well. Like I said, there are standard seals in 35x58x10 and it looks like there are even 35x58x8, but 35x58x9 is an oddball. There is a Japanese (Nissan?) outboard engine that uses one.

    http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/to...7-00121-0.html

    I have no idea if it is directional or if it is, which direction it is for. Be aware that a directional oil seal pumps oil at a high rate. If you put the wrong roation seal in, it will literally pump oil out of the gearbox.




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    Re: Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by movingim View Post
    Your right its 52mm my mistake, anyway here's some photos of the seal from the right stub axel which is 38x58x12 along with the housing which neither that or the axel look to be altered and or machined. Thanks for all your help so far, there is is company I going to contact Friday to see if they have one with the proper helix.

    Jeff

    First, thanks to Johnny for reporting back on the 5th gear conversion! The thread has indeed wandered. I think as there is very little traffic on the forum, we tend to analyze what traffic there is.

    So the seal....
    Wow! How on earth did you end up with a 38mm ID? Is there some bizzare, 1979-only variation of the transmission? This isn't an automatic, is it? Did they bush a 35mm stub shaft up to 38mm? I'd measure the shaft and see if it truely is 38mm, if it isn't, a 38mm seal will barely touch a 35mm shaft (if at all).

    Also, the seal you show in the picture has the wrong roation for a LH shaft. LH shaft seal should be CCW as viewed from the air side (CW as viewed from the wet side). As you know, what makes a seal unidirectional are those little helical sipes around the lip. If you look at yours an imagine the LH axle shaft rotating in the bore as you drive down the road, the shaft would rotate CW as you were looking at it. The sipes on the seal you show would tend to push oil to the dry side in that situation. The shaft would also be rotating counter to the arrows molded into the dry-side of the rubber. You can't simply install it backwards to fix the situation either as there are other design factors that determine what side is the wet side and what side is the dry side (bascally it is the axial location of the garter spring relative to the actual sealing lip).

    You have a lot of options like I listed. There is nothng wrong with a bi-directional seal if you can get one. If it were me, I think I'd be trying to put it back to stock (assuming your set-up isn't) with a new endplate and a new stub shaft (if yours isn't 35mm) but I can see where the differential bearing preload issue might be a deterant if you didn't have a lot of experience.

    Good luck with it!
    1974 Fiat X1/9
    1981 Lancia Zagato

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    Re: Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

    This is my first post here, so bear with me if the topic has been covered elsewhere. I'm thinking about changing the fifth gear in my scorpion to the taller Monte Hospital gear. I have no idea why I think about such things at 2:30 AM. Has anyone done this and how difficult is it? Also, as the prior post suggests, I haven't been able to find the OEM crimp nut anywhere, though I just started looking. Does anyone have any suggestions - other that Midwest? Is it the same as the Ferrari ring nuts that are found in many places in the 308 and 246 engine and trans? If it really has been replaced by a Fiat cam nut, does anyone know the part number? If you use the cam nut, do you red loctite it to the shaft?
    Thanks in advance.

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    Re: Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

    Welcome to the forum! For a description of the 5th gear swap go the the transmission/gear box parts section of TMH website and read the instructions. They're detailed and good. I started the job and found that my old back wouldn't tolerate the crouch so passed the job to a friend. You don't need new ring nuts because they won't retighten to the same spot with the new gears on the shafts so you can stake them again. The swap went as described in TMH except that the keyway on one of the new gears smaller than the key in the shaft. It's odd that someone taking the trouble to do something as difficult as designing and building these gears would get the keyway width wrong. Some careful work with a flat file on half the key fixed it though.

    I'm pleased with the swap as I said above. No gear whine and the car is noticeably quieter now at speed. I'm using 4th gear more. The car was geared so low my upshift was usually 1-3-5, skipping two gears. I wouldn't recommend the change if you plan track days or competition events because I think your elapse times will be down. Makes for much more pleasant driver though.
    Johnny Keppelman, 1.3 Fulvia coupe project, 81 Beta Coupe (original owner)

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    Re: Beta/Scorpion trans. ring nut, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by ossa View Post
    This is my first post here, so bear with me if the topic has been covered elsewhere. I'm thinking about changing the fifth gear in my scorpion to the taller Monte Hospital gear. I have no idea why I think about such things at 2:30 AM. Has anyone done this and how difficult is it? Also, as the prior post suggests, I haven't been able to find the OEM crimp nut anywhere, though I just started looking. Does anyone have any suggestions - other that Midwest? Is it the same as the Ferrari ring nuts that are found in many places in the 308 and 246 engine and trans? If it really has been replaced by a Fiat cam nut, does anyone know the part number? If you use the cam nut, do you red loctite it to the shaft?
    Thanks in advance.
    I'd seen the Ferrari parts that look very similar. Searchng for "Ferrari ring nut" on eBay yeilds a lot of interesting parts. Some of them have a different locking mechanism instead of the stake-in-place design. The thread on the Lancia nut is M22x1.5 so I imagine if you could find a Ferrari nut with the same thread, it might work....might be the same part only in a Ferrari box. Also, the tools for the Ferarri nuts seems available, albeit at a king's ransome. Random samples from eBay below....
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tool-for-FER...ODJ36Yp98tEG5Q
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ferrari-328-...VXknZg&vxp=mtr
    I personally wouldn't rely on chemical thread locking. I'd be more inclined to take the old nut to a machine shop and have duplicates made. It probably is just plain carbon steel without quench and temper. I base this on the fact that it is a very large thread for the tightening torque and requiers the collar to be deformed. Probably could have them make extra to get the piece price down and then sell them on to a vendor to pay for the costs.
    1974 Fiat X1/9
    1981 Lancia Zagato

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