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Thread: Hagerty guide

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    Re: Hagerty guide

    Interesting, but more than slightly ignorant
    Ed Levin
    Fulvia 1,6 HF

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    Re: Hagerty guide

    Quote Originally Posted by 1,6 HF View Post
    Interesting, but more than slightly ignorant

    I don't know much about the Fulvias..tell me about the ignorance of the article.

    Jay (needing to be enlightened)

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    Re: Hagerty guide

    The Fulvia was introduced during the 1963 Geneva Motor Show as a replacement for the Lancia Appia, and would mark the final application of Lancia's line of narrow-angle V-4 engines that were mounted at a 45 degree angle in front of the transaxle.

    The Fulvia engine was the first--not the final--application with he engine angled over at 45 degrees. The Appia, like all the Lancia narrow-angle vees before it, had the engine upright.

    The first Fulvia introduced to the public was the four-door Berlina sedan with a 97.6" wheelbase, independent front suspension, and disc brakes all around. The original car with its twin-cam 1,098-cc, 58-horsepower V-4 engine was soon joined by increasingly sporty Berlina models such as the 2C, the GT and the GTE— all of which introduced bigger and more powerful versions of the narrow-angle V-4. In 1969, everything came together with the updated Berlina S2 (Series 2), that included a redesigned body to incorporate a longer wheelbase, followed by the 1970 Berlina S2’s large Girling calipers, pads, and a five-speed gearbox.

    The 1091cc (not 1098 ) berlina was introduced in 1963, followed the next year by the 2C (dual carb); the 1216cc (later 1231cc) GT was introduced in 1967. In 1969 "everything came together" with the 1298cc GTE, which is generally the most desirable of the berlinas. The S2 berlina was introduced in 1970.

    In the meantime, other models were introduced, including the well-proportioned 1965 coupe that had a wheelbase shortened by 5.9 inches, and a larger 80 horsepower version of the V-4. Later in 1965, this coupe was reintroduced in a higher-spec HF form and would propel Lancia into the forefront of FIA rallying. This attractive coupe not only won championships, but was lauded by auto journalists as a jewel of engineering and forward-thinking with its front-wheel-drive layout.
    The Coupé, with a 1261cc engine, was indeed introduced in 1965. The Coupé HF was introduced in 1966; it had a more highly-tuned engine, but was a stripped-down, lightweight homologation special, with thinner steel, acrylic windows, deleted bumpers, and no sound deadening. So it was faster, but the opposite of "higher spec". It saw some limited rally success, but didn't "propel Lancia into the forefront of FIA rallying", and it won no significant championships.
    Higher-powered 1.3- and 1.6-liter motors followed,
    The 1,3HF and 1,6HF were the homologation specials that saw significant competition success. The 1,6HF (1969-70) won the first of Lancia's 11 international rally championships, but it didn't win that until 1972.

    along with a beautiful Zagato-styled version of the coupe called the Sport— of which 7,300 were built.
    The Fulvia Sport was its own model; calling it a "version of the Coupé" is like calling the Coupé a version of the berlina. The Sport shared the Coupé's wheelbase and mechanicals, but the platform was different. 7102 Sports were built, beginning in 1965 with the 1216cc engine, and increasing in power roughly in parallel with the standard Coupé.

    A total of over 340,000 1963-72 Berlinas and 1965-76 coupes were produced
    Around 188,700 berlinas were built, along with about 129,600 Coupés, 6500 HFs, and 7100 Sports, for a total Fulvia production of just under 332,000 units.

    , and they are gaining the same appreciation as their rear-wheel-drive Alfa Romeo contemporaries due to their rally pedigree, cutting edge engineering that continues to excite today’s collectors, and the build quality in stampings and castings— often described as Mercedes-like by many of their fans.

    That much is generally true. I believe it was John Surtees who described Lancia as the Italian Mercedes.
    Ed Levin
    Fulvia 1,6 HF

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    Re: Hagerty guide

    Quote Originally Posted by 1,6 HF View Post
    The Fulvia was introduced during the 1963 Geneva Motor Show as a replacement for the Lancia Appia, and would mark the final application of Lancia's line of narrow-angle V-4 engines that were mounted at a 45 degree angle in front of the transaxle.

    The Fulvia engine was the first--not the final--application with he engine angled over at 45 degrees. The Appia, like all the Lancia narrow-angle vees before it, had the engine upright.

    The first Fulvia introduced to the public was the four-door Berlina sedan with a 97.6" wheelbase, independent front suspension, and disc brakes all around. The original car with its twin-cam 1,098-cc, 58-horsepower V-4 engine was soon joined by increasingly sporty Berlina models such as the 2C, the GT and the GTE— all of which introduced bigger and more powerful versions of the narrow-angle V-4. In 1969, everything came together with the updated Berlina S2 (Series 2), that included a redesigned body to incorporate a longer wheelbase, followed by the 1970 Berlina S2’s large Girling calipers, pads, and a five-speed gearbox.

    The 1091cc (not 1098 ) berlina was introduced in 1963, followed the next year by the 2C (dual carb); the 1216cc (later 1231cc) GT was introduced in 1967. In 1969 "everything came together" with the 1298cc GTE, which is generally the most desirable of the berlinas. The S2 berlina was introduced in 1970.

    In the meantime, other models were introduced, including the well-proportioned 1965 coupe that had a wheelbase shortened by 5.9 inches, and a larger 80 horsepower version of the V-4. Later in 1965, this coupe was reintroduced in a higher-spec HF form and would propel Lancia into the forefront of FIA rallying. This attractive coupe not only won championships, but was lauded by auto journalists as a jewel of engineering and forward-thinking with its front-wheel-drive layout.
    The Coupé, with a 1261cc engine, was indeed introduced in 1965. The Coupé HF was introduced in 1966; it had a more highly-tuned engine, but was a stripped-down, lightweight homologation special, with thinner steel, acrylic windows, deleted bumpers, and no sound deadening. So it was faster, but the opposite of "higher spec". It saw some limited rally success, but didn't "propel Lancia into the forefront of FIA rallying", and it won no significant championships.
    Higher-powered 1.3- and 1.6-liter motors followed,
    The 1,3HF and 1,6HF were the homologation specials that saw significant competition success. The 1,6HF (1969-70) won the first of Lancia's 11 international rally championships, but it didn't win that until 1972.

    along with a beautiful Zagato-styled version of the coupe called the Sport— of which 7,300 were built.
    The Fulvia Sport was its own model; calling it a "version of the Coupé" is like calling the Coupé a version of the berlina. The Sport shared the Coupé's wheelbase and mechanicals, but the platform was different. 7102 Sports were built, beginning in 1965 with the 1216cc engine, and increasing in power roughly in parallel with the standard Coupé.

    A total of over 340,000 1963-72 Berlinas and 1965-76 coupes were produced
    Around 188,700 berlinas were built, along with about 129,600 Coupés, 6500 HFs, and 7100 Sports, for a total Fulvia production of just under 332,000 units.

    , and they are gaining the same appreciation as their rear-wheel-drive Alfa Romeo contemporaries due to their rally pedigree, cutting edge engineering that continues to excite today’s collectors, and the build quality in stampings and castings— often described as Mercedes-like by many of their fans.

    That much is generally true. I believe it was John Surtees who described Lancia as the Italian Mercedes.

    Hey Thank you very much! Very enlightening!

    Jay

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    Re: Hagerty guide

    Well done for sorting that out Ed. It was the prices they quote that I was looking at, especially for the 1.6 HF. I wonder where they get them from - are there any real cars that have recently sold for these sums?

    Phil

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    Re: Hagerty guide

    I thought the 1600HF pricing was a low - not sure how long ago the prices were updated, but the quoted price was pretty much what I paid for mine 10 years ago. Also, the guide lists a 1,2 model as manufactured in 1972 and 1973?

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    Re: Hagerty guide

    Quote Originally Posted by phill View Post
    Well done for sorting that out Ed. It was the prices they quote that I was looking at, especially for the 1.6 HF. I wonder where they get them from - are there any real cars that have recently sold for these sums?
    The prices seem pretty far off, but some of them simply make no sense whatsoever as 1969 cars. Some of them are technically correct–in 1969 you could still order virtually every previous version of the Fulvia, as you can see from this November 1968 factory-delivery price list.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    But assuming we’re discussing the most current models, and assuming #2 condition–better than driver condition, and assuming US prices (your market may vary)...


    1969 Lancia Fulvia 1.3 S1 Coupe 4-cyl. 1298cc/87hp 2x1bbl Solex: $13,274
    This one’s pretty clear; either a Rallye 1,3 or Rallye 1,3S, neither of which you can find for $13k these days. I’d say the average price is closer to $18k.

    1969 Lancia Fulvia 1.3HF Coupe 4-cyl. 1298cc/115hp 2x1bbl: $36,576
    The 1,3HF had 100bhp–not 115. I doubt you’ll find one for $45k.

    1969 Lancia Fulvia 1.6HF Fanalone Coupe 4-cyl. 1584cc/130hp 2x2bbl: $106,485

    At least 25% low, which is why the RM Sotheby’s was such a steal.

    1969 Lancia Fulvia S1 Sedan 4-cyl. 1091cc/71hp 2x1bbl: $7,006
    The ‘69 berlina was the GTE with the 1298cc. Very hard to find at all these days; 2Cs and GTs are common by comparison. But they were bought by adults, so if you do manage to find one, it’ll likely be in great shape. It’ll also be likely to take $15k.

    1969 Lancia Fulvia S2 Sedan 4-cyl. 1298cc/95hp 2x2bbl: $7,154
    The S2 berlina was introduced in 1970, not ‘69. But they’re not very low on the price

    1969 Lancia Fulvia Sport Zagato 1.3 Coupe 4-cyl. 1298cc/87hp 2x1bbl Solex: $22,324
    It’s officially "Fulvia Sport" and it’s not a coupé. Last year an S2 sold at Monterey for $49.5k. The average isn’t that high, but it’s nowhere near $22k.


    Ed Levin
    Fulvia 1,6 HF

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    Re: Hagerty guide

    Those prices you quote Ed are what they term as average prices. For instance the best 1.3 HF's they value at $70,000 and 'excellent' cars at about $48,000. What astonishes me is the values they are giving for the Fanalone - $182,000 for the very best cars and $138,000 for excellent. I would think that most cars would probably fall a bit below that so your value of around $125,000 or so would seem to marry up with theirs. Having said that though the RM Sothebys car went for £50,000 ($76,000).

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    Re: Hagerty guide

    Quote Originally Posted by phill View Post
    ... What astonishes me is the values they are giving for the Fanalone - $182,000 for the very best cars and $138,000 for excellent. I would think that most cars would probably fall a bit below that so your value of around $125,000 or so would seem to marry up with theirs. Having said that though the RM Sothebys car went for £50,000 ($76,000).
    Their high number reflects a coupe of sales of works (or semi-works) cars over the past year or so. There's a very original example, with great provenance, available now in the US for just about the "excellent" price. And I'll say it again; the RM Sotheby's car was a steal.
    Ed Levin
    Fulvia 1,6 HF

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