Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16

Thread: Fulvia EFI!

  1. #1
    Senior Lancista Taddraughn's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Madison, MS
    Age
    25
    Posts
    467
    Downloads
    36
    Uploads
    0

    Fulvia EFI!

    Starting this thread because it seems like there are at least a few people here that would be interested in this topic. I've started ordering some parts to play with and have started modeling some things to prototype with my 3D printer so it felt like a good time to start a thread.

    This will probably be a lot slower thread progress and update wise compared to the build thread I have going because that will obviously take priority for me (and my wallet tells me I can't buy an ECU just yet), but here's just a few details about how I'm planning to do it right now.

    I want to run everything with a Link ECU (not sure which one, but I like the brand and the options their ECUs have). Since I want to do sequential injection and ignition, I'm going to use a couple littlefuse brand hall effect sensors that are made specifically for this type of application.

    https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...rrencycode=USD

    One missing tooth type trigger wheel will be on the front of the crank pulley and the other will be a cam angle sensor trigger wheel (single tooth) that runs inside an old distributor housing. The housing will have a custom CNC cap that holds the hall effect sensor (this is what I'm modelling now).

    The hardest bit so far has been finding properly sized throttle bodies for this engine. Not only diameter, but also the spacing. So right off the bat you know they have to be individually cast so that the spacing of the bodies can be reduced. The size dictates that we're mostly talking about motorcycle TBs (maybe also snowmobile, etc), but even those are much bigger than our venturi sizes. It seems to be generally accepted that throttle body size is less critical than carb sizing, but that the larger you go, the more problem you're likely have with "tip in." By that I just mean small amounts of throttle position increase would make you go to wide open throttle (likely meaning you'd need a progressive throttle mechanism to control it easily mechanically). Would love to hear any ideas from you guys regarding the bore sizing of the TBs..

    I opted to go with some 2001-2003 year model Suzuki GSXR600 throttle bodies for now. These are individually cast and 38 mm in diameter so they're quite a bit larger than the 29mm venturi that my 1.3 engine on the shelf has. However, they also are equipped with secondary butterflies. These are installed on several bikes to limit airflow or increase air velocity at lower engine speeds; helping the bike's drivability and control at low RPM. Depending on the bike these are either solenoid controlled or servo/stepper controlled. Unsure which type the TBs I've ordered are because I just ordered them this morning.

    I'd have liked to find something closer to the correct size with only primary butterflies for simplicity, but I just haven't found anything yet. Some of the 400cc bikes have near the same size as the venturis (30 and 31mm) but they're cast to be two barrels in each housing. I suppose you could cut them but it might get ugly.

    Anyway, lots of other details to consider eventually but it's a start. I'll post up some pictures of the models that I make and the prototypes I print. It'll likely be a while before any of this makes it to the machine shop though. I have a great relationship with a local shop that is willing to do small jobs for me like this, but I have to be patient because obviously the big customers come first. I'll probably have them laser but the custom trigger wheels for me and CNC the aluminum cap and other various parts that I'll need eventually.

  2. #2
    Senior Lancista Taddraughn's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Madison, MS
    Age
    25
    Posts
    467
    Downloads
    36
    Uploads
    0

    Re: Fulvia EFI!

    Did a little modelling today since I didn't work on my car. This is my first draft/idea for a Cam angle sensor using the distributor housing and a modified or new shaft with a custom top that holds the hall effect sensor I bought. Probably will go through several versions after 3D printing it to see what works and what doesn't. Anyway here's a couple pictures of the models I whipped up this afternoon.




  3. #3
    Senior Lancista Taddraughn's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Madison, MS
    Age
    25
    Posts
    467
    Downloads
    36
    Uploads
    0

    Re: Fulvia EFI!

    The more I think about this conversion the more excited I get about it.. Which is bad considering it really will be a while before I make the leap and buy the $1000 ECU. However, for now I can dream and amass some of the cheaper components to see if I think it will work/ be worth doing.

    The throttle bodies off the 01 GSXR 600 came in today and they look pretty good for their age. Not much fuel varnish, etc. Some back of the napkin type calcs that I've done using a few different equations I've seen online actually make it seem like using this size throttle body will be a good idea.

    The calcs were based on size of the engine (either the bore, stroke, and number of cylinders, or just the size in liters) and also the rpm that you will be making peak power. Calcs for the 1.3 Fulvia engine and the 600cc GSXR actually yield about the same result (38mm and 36mm respectively) because the rpm for peak power on the GSXR is about double the Fulvia at ~12k rpm. The question that doesn't really answer is why then is the carb on the fulvia so much smaller than this throttle body? Maybe the answer has to do with volumetric efficiency of old vs modern engines? In that case maybe the head of my 1.3 will need some porting and 1600 valves to be able to flow some more air? Not sure what the answer is...

    Anyway, here are a few pictures showing the throttle bodies and measurements of the spacing of the bores on both the solex carbs and the TBs







    So, physically I just need to get rid of 20mm in between the bores. It really doesn't look that bad to me.. I'll just have to figure out exactly what to do with the throttle linkage connections between each bore.

    The partially open butterflies that you see are the secondary butterflies. They are operated by a 12V solenoid and are either partially open as shown here or fully open (Not really sure if they could be opened to different lengths with different voltages, but this could maybe be done with a PWM table in the ECU).

    Only time will tell, but It may be that the fulvia is happy without the secondary butterflies restricting airflow at low rpm. Certainly it would make the tuning easier if I didn't need them. In any case, my outlook for this conversion is good so far! Theoretically everything seems like it should work.


    EDIT: After thinking about this for a while, I decided to purchase a set of GSR 400 TBs. These are 30mm diameter bodies and will have to come from Japan. These bikes seem more rare than most sportbikes (tbh I'd never heard of this bike before looking for small throttle bodies) so there were only 2 on US ebay. I grabbed a set that are complete with injectors and everything.

    I'll probably try out the 38mm TBs with the secondaries, while I'll probably remove the secondaries from the 30mm TBs. Can't see much use in keeping them when the sizing will be almost identical to the factory sized venturi.
    Last edited by Taddraughn; 21st June 2019 at 12:52 PM.

  4. #4
    Legendary Lancista bmarler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    olympia,wa
    Posts
    765
    Downloads
    44
    Uploads
    1

    Re: Fulvia EFI!

    i had a chance to test fit the vw coils and they could work if you're going to do cop ignition. .they poke out a bit, but a shroud could be formed and mounted to the valve cover studs with grommets placed to stabilize the coils and provide a way to lock them down.
    bmarler/
    1967 fulvia sport zagato
    1961 appia vignale convert.

  5. #5
    Senior Lancista Taddraughn's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Madison, MS
    Age
    25
    Posts
    467
    Downloads
    36
    Uploads
    0

    Re: Fulvia EFI!

    Quote Originally Posted by bmarler View Post
    i had a chance to test fit the vw coils and they could work if you're going to do cop ignition. .they poke out a bit, but a shroud could be formed and mounted to the valve cover studs with grommets placed to stabilize the coils and provide a way to lock them down.
    Awesome! If it isn't too much trouble do you think you could snap a picture of how they look/ how far it would stick out?

    I was tentatively thinking to use LS1 coils because they are logic level and pretty cheap. Of course that would be Coil-Near-Plug (the wires would only need to be a few inches long though) but I was thinking about cutting a nice bracket out on the plasma table to hold the coils with the valve cover studs as you say above. I think the VW COP set up might give a neater appearance than the LS coils since they should be a lot smaller

  6. #6
    Legendary Lancista bmarler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    olympia,wa
    Posts
    765
    Downloads
    44
    Uploads
    1

    Re: Fulvia EFI!

    Quote Originally Posted by Taddraughn View Post
    Awesome! If it isn't too much trouble do you think you could snap a picture of how they look/ how far it would stick out?

    I was tentatively thinking to use LS1 coils because they are logic level and pretty cheap. Of course that would be Coil-Near-Plug (the wires would only need to be a few inches long though) but I was thinking about cutting a nice bracket out on the plasma table to hold the coils with the valve cover studs as you say above. I think the VW COP set up might give a neater appearance than the LS coils since they should be a lot smaller
    i did take a couple of pics. i'll upload them when i get a minute.
    bmarler/
    1967 fulvia sport zagato
    1961 appia vignale convert.

  7. #7
    Experienced Lancista
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Hoschton, GA, USA
    Posts
    62
    Downloads
    30
    Uploads
    0

    Re: Fulvia EFI!

    I'm watching this conversion with interest. Not because I would do it, but love seeing someone push to make their classic drive-able in today's world. One thing you might want to look into (if you haven't already), Borla makes some throttle body and kits for doing Weber and Solex conversions:

    https://www.borlainduction.com/2900-series.html

    Correction - just noticed the spacing. Looks like they are too far apart. But maybe you can find something on their website that may help.
    Life's too short to drive boring cars. Nothing boring: 1968 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1.3, 1969 Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce, 1973 Opel GT, 1973 Porsche 914, 1973 Triumph TR6, 1979 Triumph Spitfire, 1966 Lotus Elan, 2005 Lotus Elise, 2003 Jaguar XKR

  8. #8
    Senior Lancista Taddraughn's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Madison, MS
    Age
    25
    Posts
    467
    Downloads
    36
    Uploads
    0

    Re: Fulvia EFI!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrinkMan View Post
    I'm watching this conversion with interest. Not because I would do it, but love seeing someone push to make their classic drive-able in today's world. One thing you might want to look into (if you haven't already), Borla makes some throttle body and kits for doing Weber and Solex conversions:

    https://www.borlainduction.com/2900-series.html

    Correction - just noticed the spacing. Looks like they are too far apart. But maybe you can find something on their website that may help.
    Thanks for linking that; That carbon fiber airbox looks pretty awesome IMO. Also looks like they only do down to 40mm bores, but still all the images are useful for me.

    I could make a manifold with larger spacing and use off the shelf parts, but I'd really like to keep the factory spacing and "envelope" of the carbs for a few reasons. Of course, I obviously have a long way to go so who knows how all this will really turn out in the end. I'm having fun with it though!

  9. #9
    Legendary Lancista bmarler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    olympia,wa
    Posts
    765
    Downloads
    44
    Uploads
    1

    Re: Fulvia EFI!

    here's a couple of pics with the vw coil installed. i also ran into a friend who's doing a miata turbo install, and snapped a pic of the coil setup. it must be a wasted spark ignition by the look of it.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMAG2291-20190627-065823827.jpg 
Views:	24 
Size:	997.3 KB 
ID:	14878Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMAG2290-20190627-065823409.jpg 
Views:	22 
Size:	817.6 KB 
ID:	14877Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMAG2333-20190627-065822982.jpg 
Views:	23 
Size:	556.2 KB 
ID:	14879
    bmarler/
    1967 fulvia sport zagato
    1961 appia vignale convert.

  10. #10
    Senior Lancista Taddraughn's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Madison, MS
    Age
    25
    Posts
    467
    Downloads
    36
    Uploads
    0

    Re: Fulvia EFI!

    Quote Originally Posted by bmarler View Post
    here's a couple of pics with the vw coil installed. i also ran into a friend who's doing a miata turbo install, and snapped a pic of the coil setup. it must be a wasted spark ignition by the look of it.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMAG2291-20190627-065823827.jpg 
Views:	24 
Size:	997.3 KB 
ID:	14878Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMAG2290-20190627-065823409.jpg 
Views:	22 
Size:	817.6 KB 
ID:	14877Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMAG2333-20190627-065822982.jpg 
Views:	23 
Size:	556.2 KB 
ID:	14879
    Thanks for posting up those pictures; Stick out is really not too much at all. I forgot that the coils would be in line with the cylinder angles; that makes the job of securing them properly a little more difficult but not impossible.

    I like how neat plug wiring is on that Mazda engine; It does appear to be a wasted spark set up as I can only see two coils and looks like 1&4 and 2&3 to the same coils.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •