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Thread: Electrical issues 69 S1 Fulvia Coupé 1.3S

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    Post Electrical issues 69 S1 Fulvia Coupé 1.3S

    Hi guys,

    I'm busy restoring a 69 Lancia Fulvia and am absolutely stuck with the electrical side of it. I've sorted out most of the wires, but still have lots of issues. By know I know this diagram by heart, but some of the wires seem to be replaced so the amateur that I am, I still need lots of help. I'm just going to start with the first thing right after the battery: How do I know the voltage regulator is working properly.

    Thanks a lot in advance.

    1969 Lancia Fulvia Coupé Series 1 Rallye 1.3S

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    Legendary Lancista bmarler's Avatar
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    Re: Electrical issues 69 S1 Fulvia Coupé 1.3S

    first check would be to measure the voltage. you should see the voltage rise above the resting voltage as rpm's increase. resting voltage can be anywhere above 12.2 volts. usually around 12.5- 12.7 volts. it should rise to around 13.5 to 14 volts when you rev the motor. don't be surprised to see no volt rise at idle. these voltages are approximate and not critical, just an example.
    you can change to a solid state regulator and get improved performance over the old style.
    bmarler/
    1967 fulvia sport zagato
    1961 appia vignale convert.

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    Legendary Lancista Marnix's Avatar
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    Post Re: Electrical issues 69 S1 Fulvia Coupé 1.3S

    OK, since the GENERATOR (not the altenator) voltage regulator on about all S1 cars (except the Fanalone and a rare '69 transion model for Greece) are such an annoying issue, maybe I should expand a bit on them.

    These voltage regulators are electro-mechanical (remember, the transistor was just only invented in the sixties). That means it is done by a relay, that switches all the time (there is a second relay in it, but let's keep things simple). When the voltage gets lower, the relay switches on, and starts applying FULL current to the field winding of the dynamo. When the voltage gets too high it switches off the current of the field winding COMPLETELY. This cycle repeats itself. These things wear out, it is actually quite fast switching all the time, with the battery acting as a huge smoothing capacitor to flatten off the pulses of the on and off switching of the generator. Now they are Bosch, and they usually make good quality, but they are by now 50 or 50+ years old, and who knows how many thousands and thousands times they have switched. When they fail, two things can happen: 1. they no longer switch on, and then there is (almost) no longer generator power (there is still a bit from the generator residual magnetic field in the field winding); that's the least worrying. 2. they don't switch off, and then the field winding in the generator get continous full current and will most likely burn through, if not the battery may get overloaded, and possibly explode. I have seen all this happening on S1 Fulvias around, especially the burnt out generator (you can smell it from a distance).

    I am not an advocate of putting lots of electronics in the Fulvia (S1), but I do advice to change two weak points in it by electronic versions: 1. the ignition, which doesn't age well 2. the electro-mechanical voltage regulator (for dynamo). Bosch makes a electronic equivalent that is the same format. It has two downsides: 1. it is quite expensive 2. it doesn't have the spades connector contacts, screw contacts instead. But it works wonderfully well: it starts charging at a much lower RPM, and what is more, it regulates the current of the field winding in a measured way, instead of on-off. It is much more gentle on the generator and the battery, protects both generator and battery against overloading. Because I get so many requests for the electronic replacement I have arranged to fit the Bosch replacement with the correct spades contacts, so that it becomes a direct replacement for the old regulator, no changes on the wiring needed. I usually have a stock of these for sale, but I have to get new ones, because I have sold out the (small) stock I got (I only keep a small stock, they are expensive. I have to see if I can get new ones and arrange to have them fitted with the spades connectors (it is a bit of work). They are expensive, count something like 150 Euro (shipping not included); it may even have become more expensive when I have to order new ones.

    There is another version, which is not the same format as the old one but does fit anyhow. That one has spades connectors but one (where you need to fit a spade connector yourself). While cheaper, I like this version less, because the body is on live +12V, and is NOT fuse protected. It is mounted with the body barely a mm or so from the chassis. Any contact at the body of the regulator with anything ground connected will give a huge, not fuse protected short circuit. It does work rather well otherwise.

    At idle RPM, the generator will not give enough to charge the battery, and the charging warning light will light up (normally not fully, but faintly). This is normal. Manual warns about that, be it a bit optimistically: "the warning light may come occasionally on at idle". The occasional is a bit over: it always lights up (not fully but "half") at idle on mine, be it with the old electro - mechanical or electronic version. Should go out as soon as you rev up. If it behaves like that, no worries.
    Lancia Fulvia 2C 1964
    Lancia Fulvia Coupe Rallye 1,3 1968
    Porsche 924 1979
    Alfa Romeo 33 1.4IE 1993

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    Legendary Lancista bmarler's Avatar
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    Re: Electrical issues 69 S1 Fulvia Coupé 1.3S

    i run that second regulator you mentioned. i use rubber sheet to protect the thing from shorting out. not on the unit itself as i think it needs cooling, but around it and on the bonnet over the top of it. i don't know why they decided to make the body "live" on this thing, maybe for positive ground design? if i remember right, it was a volkswagen part number, and lived under the rear seat.
    i am actually thinking of making a plexiglass cover for it for better protection but haven't gotten around to it. it does work well though, far better than the original.
    bmarler/
    1967 fulvia sport zagato
    1961 appia vignale convert.

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    Re: Electrical issues 69 S1 Fulvia Coupé 1.3S

    Okay, first of all thanks for all the info, this surely helps a lot in preventing or recognising issues in the future. As I can not start the engine though, due to leaking carbs and oil filter housing, I'll have to find a way to test the regulator on the battery alone, is this possible? Maybe it helps to add that some components that are wired already work just fine like the blower fan and wipers.

    1969 Lancia Fulvia Coupé Series 1 Rallye 1.3S

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    Re: Electrical issues 69 S1 Fulvia Coupé 1.3S

    You can hardly test the regulator without the dynamo turning. It may be you are on the wrong track, with the engine not running, it is hardly likely the regulator is doing anything wrong (or right for that matter). It is not clear to me why you are pointing towards the regulator for any fault. On the diagram you can see it actually is not in the circuit for anything else than the dynamo, and the battery.
    Lancia Fulvia 2C 1964
    Lancia Fulvia Coupe Rallye 1,3 1968
    Porsche 924 1979
    Alfa Romeo 33 1.4IE 1993

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    Legendary Lancista Marnix's Avatar
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    Re: Electrical issues 69 S1 Fulvia Coupé 1.3S

    Actually, if you suspect anything with the regulator, and engine not running anyway, you can just disconnect the regulator. Disconnect the battery first, disconnect the wires on the regulator, AND MAKE VERY SURE THE UNINSULATED SPADE CONNCTORS ON THE THICK RED WIRES GOING TO THE BATTERY CAN'T TOUCH ANYTHING (but do connect them to eachother as they were on the regulator). Connect the battery again, and all circuits of the car will (should) operate as if the car is running. The absence of the regulator (and now the dynamo for that matter) doesn't make any difference without the engine running for all the rest of the electrical circuits.
    Lancia Fulvia 2C 1964
    Lancia Fulvia Coupe Rallye 1,3 1968
    Porsche 924 1979
    Alfa Romeo 33 1.4IE 1993

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    Re: Electrical issues 69 S1 Fulvia Coupé 1.3S

    Okay,

    I'll just assume all is well and if anything occurs in the future, I'll know what to check, thanks!

    Moving on to the next issue: I'm seeing those 4 cables coming thourgh from the dash cable tree. The two yellow ones are connected to the rear brake switch and one of those two black/red to the bobbin (picture 1). But I don't know what the other one is for. As I already followed every other red/black cables coming from the fuse box and engine compartiment, I can only assume it's one of the two red/black cables that come from or go to the steering wheel. Both of them are for the main beam/headlamp flashing control but I cannot fidure out where that one black/red cable goes. Also what switch exactly controls the horn and which one controls the headlight? I'm also stuck with this strange fuse? underneath the steering wheel (picture 2), I cannot figure out what that is for and where to connect it.

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    Thanks a lot in advance.

    1969 Lancia Fulvia Coupé Series 1 Rallye 1.3S

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    Re: Electrical issues 69 S1 Fulvia Coupé 1.3S

    Quote Originally Posted by SanderVdW View Post
    Okay,

    . . .

    I'm also stuck with this strange fuse? underneath the steering wheel (picture 2), I cannot figure out what that is for and where to connect it.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thanks a lot in advance.
    Your car is equipped with a Bloster steering lock. When blocking a spoke of the steering wheel with it, the switch at its back is engaged short circuiting the contact breaker point of the ignition so the engine will not fire up.

    Hubert
    Flaminia GT 3C, Flaminia Convertibile 3C, Flaminia Coupé-project-, Flavia Convertibile 1.8, Fulvia Sport 1.3S, A112 Abarth 70HP, Mercedes Benz Unimog U406

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    Legendary Lancista Marnix's Avatar
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    Re: Electrical issues 69 S1 Fulvia Coupé 1.3S

    Quote Originally Posted by SanderVdW View Post
    and one of those two black/red to the coil (picture 1). But I don't know what the other one is for. As I already followed every other red/black cables coming from the fuse box and engine compartiment, I can only assume it's one of the two red/black cables that come from or go to the steering wheel.
    I am pretty sure the red wire with black line that is hanging unconnected is the ignition connection wire that should be connected to the coil. I am not sure what that other wire is they did connect to the coiul, but it isn't the original ignition (contact switched) wire. It may also be the reason that the coil seems to be under power even with the contact switch off as you mentioned in PM.

    I have seen on some car that they installed an hidden manual switch to act as a primitive car deft obstacle. Maybe they changed the wiring for that reason.

    For all the headlight switch stuff, I would need to go look into it again, it is ages since I have been there.
    Lancia Fulvia 2C 1964
    Lancia Fulvia Coupe Rallye 1,3 1968
    Porsche 924 1979
    Alfa Romeo 33 1.4IE 1993

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