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Thread: Need electrical help

  1. #11
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    Re: Need electrical help

    Quote Originally Posted by Akonaut View Post
    Following the wiring diagram of type 818.630 (is that your type?) relays 30 and 31 are fed "permanent plus" through red wires, no ignition switch or anything in between. Relay 32 is fed by a red wire connected to a common connection with the other red wire at relay 30. If you follow the two red wires of r30 and r31 upstream you see that they end at the upstream side of fuse #7, which itself is fed by a big red wire going upstream to the starter, which is directly connected to "plus" on battery. If your wiring is unmodified, you should have "plus" at the three red wired connectors of the three relays.

    R31 has a connector for ground, as said before always worthwhile checking (but I understand you have done so already)


    That is to be checked first. If you do not have voltage there, I would connect a "flying" wire from the described connectors of the relays to "plus" at the battery and try out if things work. Instead you may install new wires from fuse#7 to the relays and test as above.

    If that does not help please report.

    Hubert
    My car is a 818.130 Bought either in the UK or Italy and then imported to the USA in 1973.

    Following your post:

    With key in off position there is:
    power to fuse #7 only
    power at the red wire terminals on relays 30, 31 and 32
    I can make all three relays click by touching a grounded continuity light to some of the other terminals on these relays

    With key on there is: power to fuses #8 and #9

    Still no power at fuses 1 - 6 and no headlights, taillights, license plate lights etc.

    I tried to trace the two black wires from relay 31 but they both disappear up into the dash. It's impossible to see where they go to ground without taking the entire dash apart. Not something I want to do.

    The car will start and run fine.

    Could it be the ignition switch? I kind of doubt it since I get power at fuses #8 and #9 when I turn the key to the on position.

    Did you see the post above about grounding things by tightening the spherical covers over the turn signal/headlight stalk. (The windsheid wipers have never stopped working). I took the advice made them very tight but there was no change. Before tightening them I took a wire brush and carefully exposed raw metal on all the threads that hold the sphere to the steering column head. Seems a strange way to ground something. Am I missing where the grounding point is? Please comment, anyone.
    Last edited by tfradke; 2nd November 2018 at 06:53 PM. Reason: Addition

  2. #12
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    Re: Need electrical help

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguelarroz View Post
    Frustrating indeed! My lights were having the very same issues as yours, dim and generally unreliable or not working at all.
    I started at the tail lights and moved forward freshening up all the grounds. Still not very reliable so I removed the column switches cleaned with electrical cleaner and brightened the mating surfaces as you have done and like you nothing except turn signals. Everything I did made it worse not better....I too felt like setting it on fire.
    Not to be defeated, I started pokeing around with a jumper wire and discovered I could make it all work by artificially grounding the metal part of the switch to a known good chassis ground. Bottom line is I simply had not been able to get the large ringnut tight enough by hand. A friend loaned me a C spanner from his bicycle repair days and I was finally able to tighten it enough to maintain a good ground. Again, it must be very tight.
    Michael

    Could you please give me a clearer idea of what you mean by the "metal part of the switch" please?

    Where do you think the ringnut grounds, the threads or some part of the flange or both? As I mentioned I very carefully took a wire wheel to all the threads both male and female to expose raw metal but no change and I tightened the heck out of what you call the ring nut. I uses a blade screw driver and a hammer to hit the notch on the ring nut moving it noticeably tighter. It seems to me that my wire brushing should have worked as well if not better than tightening.

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    Re: Need electrical help

    Todd
    Metal portion of the switch meaning the stalk itself or the metal socket the stalk operates inside of.
    You should be able to test jump a ground wire from the stalk itself to a good ground and activate the lights relay by sliding the switch to ON. If no joy trouble shoot the slide switch itself by removing the set screw using a jewelers flathead screwdriver and sliding the switch head off the stalk, there are no wires connecting it to worry about. Inside the switch is a brass sleeve that needs to be clean it serves to complete the circuit when the slide switch is moved to the ON position by grounding the center power wire to the stalk surface and trough to the chassis via the column. After you get the switch head off you well see a center contact at the end of the stalk with a small spring, being careful with the spring you should be able to use a jumper or test lead to ground it activating the lights relay. The center contact should always be hot. If the lights relay activates then you still have a grounding issue in the column to resolve. If the relay activates but still no lights then check the grounds at the tails and the ground wires at the headlights and or the contacts inside the relay. Considering your lights once worked and the wire harness is unmolested and the switch is recent, I’m still thinking incomplete ground somewhere. BTW it is important the little set screw securing the stalk head be fairly tight as well.
    Michael

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    Re: Need electrical help

    Todd,

    let me summarize what you have checked with positive result:

    1. Power supply on the relays is ok upstrem of fuse #7, red wires

    2. Ignition switch is ok, serving fuses 8 and 9

    3. Ground of the column switch is ok, at least you have done everything to establish good ground

    4. Ground on relay 31 is there, too.

    5. The column switch looks as new (is new)

    6. We exclude ground problems downstrem the different bulbs, because they would lead to a problem of the related light only.

    Now we may state that both electrical sides (meaning "+" and "-") of the relays and the column switch are ok. Also assuming the switch itself is ok, the only thing remaining is the actuating of the relays, meaning the wires: gray, green, brown, white/black going from switch to relays.

    If we regard your defect as a failure of the complete lighting system (all at the same time) what do you think of the stupid idea, that the four fold connector # 51 in the wiring diagram has disconnected, this carrying all four actuating wires? Maybe it had not been connected firmly enough, when the column switch was changed and after a period of vibrations it fell apart?

    Just an idea!

    Hubert
    Last edited by Akonaut; 4th November 2018 at 01:57 AM.
    Flaminia GT 3C, Flaminia Convertibile 3C, Flaminia Coupé-project-, Flavia Convertibile 1.8, Fulvia Sport 1.3S, A112 Abarth 70HP, Mercedes Benz Unimog U406

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    Re: Need electrical help

    Quote Originally Posted by Akonaut View Post
    Todd,

    let me summarize what you have checked with positive result:

    1. Power supply on the relays is ok upstrem of fuse #7, red wires

    2. Ignition switch is ok, serving fuses 8 and 9

    3. Ground of the column switch is ok, at least you have done everything to establish good ground

    4. Ground on relay 31 is there, too.

    5. The column switch looks as new (is new)

    6. We exclude ground problems downstrem the different bulbs, because they would lead to a problem of the related light only.

    Now we may state that both electrical sides (meaning "+" and "-") of the relays and the column switch are ok. Also assuming the switch itself is ok, the only thing remaining is the actuating of the relays, meaning the wires: gray, green, brown, white/black going from switch to relays.

    If we regard your defect as a failure of the complete lighting system (all at the same time) what do you think of the stupid idea, that the four fold connector # 51 in the wiring diagram has disconnected, this carrying all four actuating wires? Maybe it had not been connected firmly enough, when the column switch was changed and after a period of vibrations it fell apart?

    Just an idea!

    Hubert
    Checked connector #51. All is good. Connection is tight and looks like new.

    I am coming back to a potential problem with relay #31. Large and small red wires to 31 have current. Now when I touch the tip of a continuity light to the connections only one (the marrone wire) makes the relay contact click. When I bench tested relay #31 I seem to remember I could get all three to click.

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    Re: Need electrical help

    Now with the relay active did any of the lights come on? Should have dash lights, tail lights, parking lights and head lights low and high beams when moving the stalk.
    There is only one solenoid inside the relay that moves three contacts simultainiously. All the lights should work unless one or more of the contacts are dirty or out of adjustment.
    Try using the metal part of the light stalk as the ground and touch the tip of your test probe to the marrone connector on the relay. If the relay activates but no lights or some lights, look inside the relay. If no click of the relay then still a ground issue.

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    Re: Need electrical help

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguelarroz View Post
    Now with the relay active did any of the lights come on? Should have dash lights, tail lights, parking lights and head lights low and high beams when moving the stalk.
    There is only one solenoid inside the relay that moves three contacts simultainiously. All the lights should work unless one or more of the contacts are dirty or out of adjustment.
    Try using the metal part of the light stalk as the ground and touch the tip of your test probe to the marrone connector on the relay. If the relay activates but no lights or some lights, look inside the relay. If no click of the relay then still a ground issue.
    With key on, light stalk pushed down to on position and/or moved forward and back to select between low and high beams and the slide switch on the stalk head to on position, nothing comes on. No low beams, no high beams, no taillights, no dash lights (gauge needles move however). With key on and the continuity light grounded to the *round metal shell on top of the steering column there is current to fuses 7, 8 and 9. There is current to both red wires going to relay #31. Touching the tip of continuity light to the marrone colored wire connector oon relay #31 makes the relay click.

    I have carefully pried open the #31 relay and cleaned the contacts with fine sandpaper. It was several weeks ago but I remember that when I benched tested the relay I could make all three contacts close/click. The relay looks brand new both inside and out.

    Still completely bafflled. What to do next?

    *I am referring to the large raw metal semi spherical shell on top of the steering column. There are two half sphere ring nuts (one large on the left side and one small on the right side) holding the stalks that are threaded into the large shell. The large ring nut fastens the headlight and turn signals stalks in place. The small one fastens the windshield wiper stalk in place.

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    Re: Need electrical help

    Sent you a PM Todd.

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    Re: Need electrical help

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguelarroz View Post
    Now with the relay active did any of the lights come on? Should have dash lights, tail lights, parking lights and head lights low and high beams when moving the stalk.
    There is only one solenoid inside the relay that moves three contacts simultainiously. All the lights should work unless one or more of the contacts are dirty or out of adjustment.
    Try using the metal part of the light stalk as the ground and touch the tip of your test probe to the marrone connector on the relay. If the relay activates but no lights or some lights, look inside the relay. If no click of the relay then still a ground issue.

    Two weeks ago I took the relay apart and carefully sanded each contact to expose clean metal. If memory serves I was able to bench test the relay and it clicked which I assume means it is working.


    Today, with the key in the on position I grounded my continuity light to the headlight stalk and touched the tip to the marrone wire on relay #31. It clicked but still no headlights (low or high beam), no taillights or license plate lights. Power to fuses 7 , 8 and 9 but no power to 1 - 6. I have poured over the wiring diagrams many many times but still do not really understand how it all works. Everyone always says check the grounds n Italian cars. To me with a background in American cars and BMW's that means finding a stud or a sheet metal screw going through the sheet metal of the car or to the engine block with ground wires or straps attached. On the Fulvia I can find nothing like that to check in the engine bay or dashboard apart from grounds at the taillights and side marker lights. I would really like to find out if the problem is relay #31 or a ground somewhere. How do I bench test the #31 relay to confirm it really works or not? What I did two weeks was take the relay out of the car. Cleaned it as descried above. Then I used a variable 12 V power supply and clipped one wire to the the central contact where the big red wire was and then touched the other lead to each of the 6 other contacts. I got clicks.

    Miguelarroz. There was no PM in my inbox as I post this.

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    Re: Need electrical help

    Todd
    Not sure where the PM went I’ll try it again.
    Sounds like you have a complete ground through the coloum from the stalk to the brown wire at position 2 on the relay so that’s good.
    There are two black ground wires on the inside of each headlight door secured to a 6mm stud to check.
    Call me and I’ll be happy to talk about the Issues and fixes I had to get my lights working. Call anytime @ 254 7235791 two hours ahead and retired, so no big deal. Happy to help.

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