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  1. #671
    Legendary Lancista bmarler's Avatar
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    Re: Taddraughn's Fulvia Coupe: Progress Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by lancialulu View Post
    I think the term now is a swirl pot(may be wrong) but for example my Flavia Iniezione (Kuglefischer mech injection) has what can be described as a upturned pot c 3" wide at the centre of the base of the inside of the fuel tank with a hole in the top and the feed and return fed into the bottom of this pot.....
    you are absolutely correct. swirl pot is the correct term. if i were going to set up a fuel tank for efi on a fulvia i'd just fab a new tank so i could put the fittings and pump where i wanted.
    since the tank austin has is already sealed with the renu product i think he'll come to the same conclusion. i had my appia tank done that way (tank renu) and it's really nice.
    bmarler/
    1967 fulvia sport zagato
    1961 appia vignale convert.

  2. #672
    Legendary Lancista bmarler's Avatar
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    Re: Taddraughn's Fulvia Coupe: Progress Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Taddraughn View Post
    I did some searching and it appears you are definitely correct that this will be a necessary modification for EFI. Still being new to the details of EFI systems, I hadn't given the tank much consideration. After reading up it makes sense that carbs can handle some air pumped into them since they have the float bowl full of fuel. I think I'll probably leave the tank as is and use a swirl pot meant for external use. I think I should be able to use my Facet pump to pump at low pressures into the swirl pot and then go to the high pressure pump from there. Some of these pots have 1 to 1.5 liters of capacity so they should hold enough fuel for any air pumped by the facet into the pot during cornering or low gas, etc.
    i think you'll find the complexity of a separate swirl pot to be a negative. having two fuel pumps just seems like a system built for trouble. if you're going to do it, do it right.
    bmarler/
    1967 fulvia sport zagato
    1961 appia vignale convert.

  3. #673
    Legendary Lancista Taddraughn's Avatar
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    Re: Taddraughn's Fulvia Coupe: Progress Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmarler View Post
    you are absolutely correct. swirl pot is the correct term. if i were going to set up a fuel tank for efi on a fulvia i'd just fab a new tank so i could put the fittings and pump where i wanted.
    since the tank austin has is already sealed with the renu product i think he'll come to the same conclusion. i had my appia tank done that way (tank renu) and it's really nice.
    EFI is a long ways off so I'll cross that bridge when I get there. I'll probably realize it will be easier to make a new tank than use the existing one but it does seem possible to use two pumps and an external swirl pot like this one:

    http://atlinc.com/atl-swirl-pot-st540.html

    I had Moyer tank repair do the Renu process on my tank and it turned out awesome. I would recommend it to anyone with an old rusty tank that needs repair.

  4. #674
    Legendary Lancista bmarler's Avatar
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    Re: Taddraughn's Fulvia Coupe: Progress Thread

    seems like we're typing at the same time this morning.
    i used moyer too, and second the recommendation.
    bmarler/
    1967 fulvia sport zagato
    1961 appia vignale convert.

  5. #675
    Legendary Lancista Marnix's Avatar
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    Re: Taddraughn's Fulvia Coupe: Progress Thread

    This is far my area of expertise, the racing stuff. But I do know a bit about carbs in non-racing applications.

    The fuel return line is (in non-racing applications) to avoid fuel evaporation due to heat ("vapor lock"), forming fuel gas bubbles under the bonnet in the fuel lines. The fuel return line arranges that there is a constant slow stream of cooler fuel circulating.

    My S1 doesn't have a fuel return line. I never had fuel evaporation in the fuel lines (engine running) on my car, not even in the 35+ Celsius heat of some of our trips to Italy.

    I am not sure about cornering. The twin choke carbs have their main fuel passages right in the middle of the float chamber (NOT by coincidence). The idea is that any sudden pull (acceleration, braking, left or right cornering) will leave more less the correct fuel level in the middle, the fuel sweeping to one side, but being at the same level in the middle, and hence the fuel feed should remain more or less adequate (at least for a small period of time). The split arm design of the float does something similar with the fuel level: when turning hard, one leg gets higher fuel level, but the other leg gets lower. The design is so that gravity versus floating more or less will cancel each other out (the side with the higher level will try to go up, threatening to lower the fuel level; but this is counteracted by less upward lift at the side where the fuel level goes down, making the float material at the high side go deeper as it gets seeminly "heavier" by the higher pull on the other arm).
    Lancia Fulvia 2C 1964
    Lancia Fulvia Coupe Rallye 1,3 1968
    Porsche 924 1979
    Alfa Romeo 33 1.4IE 1993

  6. #676
    Master Lancista boulderz's Avatar
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    Re: Taddraughn's Fulvia Coupe: Progress Thread

    Got to feel great to get some paint on the car!

  7. #677
    Legendary Lancista Taddraughn's Avatar
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    Re: Taddraughn's Fulvia Coupe: Progress Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Marnix View Post
    This is far my area of expertise, the racing stuff. But I do know a bit about carbs in non-racing applications.

    The fuel return line is (in non-racing applications) to avoid fuel evaporation due to heat ("vapor lock"), forming fuel gas bubbles under the bonnet in the fuel lines. The fuel return line arranges that there is a constant slow stream of cooler fuel circulating.

    My S1 doesn't have a fuel return line. I never had fuel evaporation in the fuel lines (engine running) on my car, not even in the 35+ Celsius heat of some of our trips to Italy.

    I am not sure about cornering. The twin choke carbs have their main fuel passages right in the middle of the float chamber (NOT by coincidence). The idea is that any sudden pull (acceleration, braking, left or right cornering) will leave more less the correct fuel level in the middle, the fuel sweeping to one side, but being at the same level in the middle, and hence the fuel feed should remain more or less adequate (at least for a small period of time). The split arm design of the float does something similar with the fuel level: when turning hard, one leg gets higher fuel level, but the other leg gets lower. The design is so that gravity versus floating more or less will cancel each other out (the side with the higher level will try to go up, threatening to lower the fuel level; but this is counteracted by less upward lift at the side where the fuel level goes down, making the float material at the high side go deeper as it gets seeminly "heavier" by the higher pull on the other arm).
    I never thought about the float level compensating like that but it does make perfect sense. These are the type things that I don't give much thought to because they seem so simple. Fuel goes down, float goes down, gas goes in... But in reality the design is much more thought out than I've given it credit for.


    Quote Originally Posted by boulderz View Post
    Got to feel great to get some paint on the car!
    Absolutely! I have the whole car to assemble but somehow it seems like I'm almost there lol

  8. #678
    Legendary Lancista Marnix's Avatar
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    Re: Taddraughn's Fulvia Coupe: Progress Thread

    Some funny side note: I imagined for a long time the guy working on carburetor design to be a small, older, grey, partly bald man that accumulated his "witchcraft" of designing carbs by long years of experience. Then I stumbled on a old picture in a factory somewhere (not Lancia or Solex I think), and what did I see? An older, small, grey, bald man bend over a testbed making measures of some carburetor setup
    I should have saved the picture, don't recall where I saw it

    There is a lesson to be learned: tinkering with carburetors is NOT obvious. They are seemingly simple, but there is a lot of factors involved. Most of the expertise is now lost as the "old men" that had the knowledge are mostly gone.
    My experience is: if you get to make them absolutely clean, remove all wear, make sure there is no unduly play anywhere, there are no unwarranted leaks, they simply work fantastic. Even the often despised Solex carburetors, when REALLY returned to "new" (I hate the ones I get in that are so called "restored": not only do I have to do the same work as on "unrestored" anyway, but I often have to "undo" all the stupidities of the so called "expert" that worked on them as well) carbs work very, very good. I have the possibility to put Dellortos in my car if I want to (got about 15 sets of DHLB 32 and 35 laying around). I sometimes drive Dellortos in my car using my car for testing my restorations of Dellortos. They run very well... but the Solexes drive better - the engine turns just that tiny, almost unnoticeable little bit smoother. Only thing I do on the Solexes is take some measures to protect them better against wear. For the rest: I put in the absolutely standard values of jetting, chokes etc, and when they are in absolute good shape, they are very hard to improve. Maybe somebody can, but I for sure know I can't improve them. Even if I myself am turning slowly into a grey, older, balding, small guy bend over the carb testbed...
    Lancia Fulvia 2C 1964
    Lancia Fulvia Coupe Rallye 1,3 1968
    Porsche 924 1979
    Alfa Romeo 33 1.4IE 1993

  9. #679
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    Re: Taddraughn's Fulvia Coupe: Progress Thread

    I'll do a proper presentation once I'm able to upload some pictures of my car on my web server... but the need to congrats Taddraughn is too big.
    Man, you're doing an amazing job! Your skills are impressive, the time you can allow to your car seems huge, and I can't wait to see your little jewel back on the road.
    Keep it up, you're my weekly shot of happiness

  10. #680
    Legendary Lancista Taddraughn's Avatar
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    Re: Taddraughn's Fulvia Coupe: Progress Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by osgii View Post
    I'll do a proper presentation once I'm able to upload some pictures of my car on my web server... but the need to congrats Taddraughn is too big.
    Man, you're doing an amazing job! Your skills are impressive, the time you can allow to your car seems huge, and I can't wait to see your little jewel back on the road.
    Keep it up, you're my weekly shot of happiness
    Wow; Thank you so much for the kind words! I think if not for all the encouragement I've received here on the forum, I would not be nearly as motivated to work so hard on this project. I'm glad you're enjoying the thread and look forward to seeing some pictures of your car once you get them uploaded.

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