Distributor springs /weights..

[ecohen2]

Last weekend I took my distributor apart and noticed that the two springs that hold the weights were quite different. One of them was very soft and was holding the weights in. The second was loose and a much stiffer spring but didn't seem to have any impact on the weights, unless you really opened them up far.

I looked in the book, but could not find a good description of these.. Does this sound right?


Anyway, I am now ready to attempt to set the timing or at least check it.


Ed

[bjmarsh]

Normal, the two different springs are used to set the advance curve. BTW the next time you need to set your timing you do not need to take your distributor apart! :)

Barry

[ecohen2]

Thanks for the advice!

Actually I took it apart to make sure the weights and springs were moving properly...

I am still trying to figure out why my car seems to have even less power then a normal Lancia has.... It really has a hard time especially in the upper RPM range.


Ed

[bjmarsh]

Lot's of "low power" culprits: insufficient fuel delivery, if you have the original fuel pump (rotary), it maybe worn out, clogged fuel filter, dirty air cleaner, improper float setting on carb, incorrect "rejet" on carbs. retarded cams (altered during a cam belt change?) clogged catalytic converter. High Mileage (may be just worn out). Vac leaks from the various hoses, leaks from the carb to intake manifold etc, etc.........

It's not that fast to begin with. Is it slower compared to other Lancias or other Scorpions? Get a compression check, both a timing light and a vac gauge can also help you to diagnose possible problems. Any other symptoms other than an unwillingness to rev?. Good luck

Barry

[SubGothius]

FWIW, low power combined with running hot (heating up quickly and then either overheating or running at the hot end of the gauge) would indicate retarded timing. When I replaced the timing belt on my Zagato, the dizzy (left as installed by a PO) was not at all correctly oriented when the aux cog was aligned "by the book", so I aligned the aux shaft by eye to get the dizzy timed rightish (didn't have a light at the time to mess with refitting the dizzy); the car then ran, albeit hot and rough with low power and fuel economy. Haynes tipped me off to retarded timing, and sure enough, when I finally got a timing light, it was firing at prolly about 5 deg. past TDC! 8O Putting it back to about 12-13 deg. BTDC (for my elevation) put things right again. ;)

[ecohen2]

Thanks for the info...

I am beginning to think it is fuel related. Like I stated earlier, the car runs well at 3500 RPMS and below. Above that it sounds like it is running very lean, kind of like I was feathering the throttle, but I am not. Even under full throttle, it doesn't sound like I its running very hard.

* The catalytic converter is new and the pulse coming out of the tail pipe is quite strong.

* I have replaced all of the fuel lines and vacuum hoses.

* It runs better with a full tank of gas then it does with a 1/3 tank of gas.

It is possible that the previous owner put hotter cams in the car. The reason I suspect this is that they are painted and at idle it sounds uneven, but its not missing. Kind of like when I put hotter cams in my fiat years ago.

I will try to do a compression check this weekend as well...

Its cold, wet and kind of snowy so I am not sure how much I can do...


Question: When you check your timing, do you take the rear wheel off or can you shoot the gun through the wheel well?

Ed

[bjmarsh]

Ed,

I just use the pointer on the flywheel and check it through the access port on top of the the bell housing. (this only works if a P.O. did not remove the flywheel pointer or re-installed it incorrectly). You are aware there is a black rubber oblong plug on the transaxle that is removable right? You can use your light to verify the timing against the marks on the transaxle. May not be accurate for setting TDC when changing the timing belt but I find it's good enough for setting the ignition timing. BTW, I assume that by now you have "invested" in the appropriate manuals? :)

[ecohen2]

I have two manuals, the shop manual and the parts manual. Neither of them are very good if you ask me, but I guess that is reall all there is.

I know the little hole and I am missing the rubber plug. In the manuals it shows watching the timing off the belt pully and going against the markings on the belt housing. It didn't look like that would be particularly accurate.

Ill try and watch the timing through the hole and see what I can see. If not, I just invested in a good floor jack and 4 jack stands. I should be able to lift the car and try timing it off of the other marks as well.

Thanks,
Ed

[bjmarsh]

Ed,

You should also have the technical manual (available in the download section on this site), if you contemplate any major repairs (it contains the important torque settings). If smog is an issue the Beta emission control systems manual, although not Scorpion specific does a good job explaining the emissions system. Get the Haynes manual for the Lancia Beta series (76-80). The Scorp is NOT covered but the chapters on engine, transaxle etc are very useful (body, braking, electrical diagrams etc are not). It often shows up on E-bay for sensible money. Get the wiring diagrams, you will need them sooner or later.

I am missing the rubber plug as well (does anybody still have theirs?) I have probably gone through 4-5 in the car's history, not a big problem just don't stickyour fingers in there or wash down the engine w/o covering it.

With the transaxle timing method, you can leave the car in nuetral and on the ground. It's easy to move the throttle and watch the pointer on the flywheel to ensure you are getting advance. It's always been accurate enough for me.

The jack and jackstands will serve you well and are a good investment.

Unfortunately there is no Robert Bentley style manual for these cars, but over time you will acquire most of what you need. The hard to find instruction book is also useful. You can always ask both here and at the Yahoo Lancia Scorpion site. Use the lousy weather as a time for research and to acquire the tools/ parts materials you need.

BTW, the 3 marks on the transaxle are 0, 5,and 10 degrees. the first is 0 (towards the fire wall). Good luck!


Barry

[Will]

You'll find a timing wheel in the downloads section, you can take the scorpion timing advance "curve" off of that. I used quotes on "curve" because it is more like a ramp. It's also in the tech data manual, I can fax it to you if you decide you need it.

[ecohen2]

Hmm... I think I might have a problem in one or two places..

I have the timing gun on the first spark plug wire as the manual says.

When I shine the timing light in the crank case hole, I see a black metal U shaped arm. Is that the timing mark? I don't actually see any marks on the flywheel. Is this a problem?

When I shine the light on the pully at the bottom of the crank, the mark lines up with the top or smallest mark on the timing belt cover. This is correct.

When I shine the light on the intake cam, the mark lines up with the valve cover case as it should. This is correct.

When I shine the light on the exhaust valve cam, it doesn't quite line up with the valve case mark. It looks like it could be a tooth off, but the manual says "about lined up" and it is pretty much lined up...

I used a DWELL meter and that seems to be right at 55.. So that seems correct.

I think I can take pictures of this.... I am going to try in a little bit, if so ill post them tonight...

[bjmarsh]

Ed,

There are no marks on the flywheel. There is a "bracket" with a pointer attached that is the TDC indicator. There are actually 3 plates or brackets that hold the clutch to the flywheel secured by a total of 6 bolts. One of these brackets is elongated and has the pointer. If a P.O. incorrectly reinstalled a new clutch these brackets might have been swapped and will no longer indicate TDC. The pointer is clearly shown in the shop manual in illustration 01 2/68,

You can check all three timing marks statically there no need to use a light. If the exhaust pulley is off one tooth of it could very well be a problem. A classic sign of a mis-timed valve train is an unwillingness to rev. Rotate the engine by what ever method you choose until you have TDC, if both cam marks are not aligned you will have to refit the timing belt. Some people use the pointers on the bracket, some use the lines on the cam towers, whatever you use, both cam pulleys must be aligned when the engine is at TDC, or your valves are mistimed.

Barry

[ecohen2]

Interesting....

I had a shop that new what they were doing put a new timing belt on the car. Ill double check it tomorrow..

So the black metal U shaped thing could easily be that bracket...Ill double check and make sure that does or does not have any markings on it..

Hmmm... My manual doesn't seem to have that page....

Thanks again for all of your help...

Ed

[SubGothius]

FWIW, in most reference photos I have seen and on my own '79 Zagato, the camwheel timing holes don't exactly line up with the cambox pointers. As you look at the marks from one end of the engine, they tend to appear both slightly inward of the cambox marks -- i.e., the camwheel holes are rolled slightly in towards the sparkplugs and each other -- rather than both outside of the pointers or both to one side or the other of the pointers.

[ecohen2]

Hmm... Mine appear to be on the outside of the marks on the cam covers...