Some info about the following car?

[rloewy]

Hello all,

Not a Fulvia owner - but I came close years ago when looking for my first sport car - at the time I decided to go for an Alfa Spider because I wanted a convertible. It was a great car - but I always wished I could have both.

Anyway - I am again getting the urge to add an Italian steed to the stable
- have been looking at some Fulvias on eBay to get a feel for the market - and came across this one -

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4584458873&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

It seems that the vendor wants more (a lot more?) than what I have seen them going for - anyone knows what this car's claim to fame is and how it is different from a "normal" 1.3 or 1.3S ?

[A1.6HPE]

Hello,
Potentially this is an interesting Fulvia Coupe. The VIN is not listed in the "Fulvia & Flavia" collectors guide as being a factory competition car. If it was run at Sebring it would have a 1401cc engine which is a very scarce item. The books states that the lightened coupes weighed 780 kilos so I guess that the current value depends upon how much it has been re-created over the years. A privately entered coupe ran at Sebring in 1969 but that was a 1.6HF.
1.3HF coupes are very scarce, I think that fewer than 500 were made and hardly any survive, most people cherish the 1.6HF.

Leo

[ncundy]

The VIN number suggests this is a 1968 car not a 1966 car. If it were a 1966 car it would have a 1.2 engine (the 1.3 did not appear until '67). The VIN 818340...... according to Weernink's book is for the 1.3 HF ('68 - '69). However that said if the shell is in good condition (seams, sills, pick up points) and the drive train is as well prepared as the seller suggests $8,000 does not seem like a bad price - it could I imagine be turned back to a more road focused car relatively easily - and definately resprayed ! Worth checking the VIN as they only produced 882 1.3 HF's so potentially a rare find. Hope this helps.

[ncundy]

Also from Weernink's book - the 1.3 HF weighed 825kg, about 100kg less than the standard 1.3 - due to aluminium doors, bonnet and boot (some may have had plexiglass side and rear windows). It had 101 bhp @6400 rpm (vs 90bhp @6200) and 96lb/ft @4750 rpm (vs 84lb/ft @ 5000 rpm) running a higher (10.5 vs 9.5) compression ratio, and no brake servo. Also lots of works options were availabe on the HF cars (gear ratios, cams etc).

[omicron]

818.340*001164*

818 means Fulvia
340 refers to LHD 1.3HF

001164 is the serial number, starting at 1001. This would be an early 1.3HF assuming chassis number is OK.

Dates are often easily messed about with

Engine number should be 818.342 and this had larger valves than the ordinary 1.3, these large valves carried over into the S1 1.3S and later models, different cams and higher compression ratio, plus more handwork and care and attention during assembly. The engine number will not be the same as chassis number. They never were.

The 1.3HF had no bumpers, aluminium panels and often plexiglass (perspex) side and rear windows. No carpets just rubber mats, plus less interior fixtures and fittings.

If it was a vintage historic racer than there could have been experimental engines fitted of various capacities. There were various upgrades that factory cars with the 1298cc engines received, so the spec could be anything over and above the 101bhp the road cars came with. Note the "we have been told" rather than a definate history.

The chassis number should be on the body as well as the VIN plate. Normally stamped in the bonnet gutter, but the stampings often get filled in with paint and are hard to read. You can often feel the underside of the bonnet gutter to find it.

Lots of things to check but basically

If its a 1.3HF, then this is one of the most sought after Fulvias, rarer than a Fanalone as well and is worth quite a lot of money. Any trick parts adds to the appeal, as does any interesting history. Not keen on the colour scheme though.

Good Find!

[rloewy]

Thanks for the information. I talked to the vendor - he told me that the car indeed started life as a 1.3HF - but currently runs a 1.2 engine (not sure how hot). The price they ask is rather high - but maybe it is worth it - I will try to get there and take a look at it sometime in the next week.

[omicron]

Lots of people get confused over the engine numbers.

The true engine number is stamped onto the flywheel housing near the starter motor. It will start 818 as all Fulvia engine and chassis numbers do, then three digits which determine the type, and then the serial number.

There is a cast in number on the front of the cylinder head which normally confuses people - as the casting number was often used on many models but the basic casting was then machined in different ways.

However, the engine number will only relate to the original specification and not any subsequent tuning work.

Try and find the size of the carburettors as well, this can give a clue.

[rloewy]

Went to look at the car. It indeed has the plexiglass rear/side windows, only minimal rug on the floot, no fenders and aluminum hood (that's bonnet to you Brits ;)) and panels.

The engine has been replaced at some point (more than 10 years ago - that's all the history they really have about the car) with a 1.2L engine - they claim it came from a 1.2HF - the engine number is 818 000 2189762 - can anyone confirm that?

It was raining outside - so I did not get to drive it - hope we get a nice day in the near future so I can give it a try - but I did give it a try - it seems to be big enough for my needs and makes lovely noise.

Anyone has some records to previous sales of 1.3HF and 1.2HF cars - so I can get an idea about previous market values? The vendor defintely want more than the $8K figure mentioned above - and I tend to agree with them - I am just not sure what the market really is for cars like this. There is no real history about Sebring participation - so no real documentation to make it worth a premium.

Overall it seems like a very nice car and I am tempted. It seems like it would be a nice replacement for my 7 - still noisy and a bit hard core - but not as punishing...

[omicron]

Where did the engine number come from? Flywheel housing near the starter motor?

If that number came of the front of the cylinder head, its just a casting number and the number refers to the model it was first used on, the 7 digit number starting with a 2 was a part number. In this case 818.000 was the first Fulvia, 1091cc single carb. The head however could be machined by Lancia into either a 1091cc version or a later version.

The reason for saying so is that 818.000 is the engine code for a 1091cc engine. The 7 digit number staring with a 2 was Lancias part number for that casting.

I did say where to find the engine number in my previous post...

Engine codes:

The engine number was always stamped (not cast) into the flywheel housing, next to the starter motor, with the following format

818.xxx * yyyyyy*

where 818 means Fulvia, xxx from the list below determines the specification the engine was originally built to, and yyyyy was the actual serial number, usually prefixed with zeros.

818.000 - 1091cc from a Fulvia Saloon
818.100 - 1091cc Fulvia 2C saloon
818.130 - 1216cc from early 1200
818.140 - 1216cc 1200HF
818.202 - 1231cc from late 1200
818.282 - 1199cc special engine for Greece tax reasons
818.302 - 1298cc early Fulvia 1300
818.303 - 1298cc late Fulvia 1300
818.342 - 1298cc 1300HF
818.540 - 1584cc 1600HF

Engine codes are different to chassis codes.

[rloewy]

Thanks again. The engine number was given to me by the vendor - but they apparently were using the casting number. It seems that this is a 818 140 engine - 1200HF...

[rloewy]

Update - I am going to test drive this car and if I like it - I suspect that I will give the vendor an offer. The SCM price guide gives a range of $10-14K USD for one - but I have no idea how accurate it is. Any ideas what the value might be from someone that followed these cars better than I did?

Thanks.

[omicron]

The casting could be used on the 1.2HF but also ordinary 1300cc engines. The engine number on the flywheel housing is the only one to go by, but its specification could have been changed since it was originally built.

If, by the engine number, it is a genuine 1.2HF engine than thats also quite special.

Few 1.3HF's were made, and now 35 years on, fewer come to the market, so its hard to give guide prices, a S1 1.6HF with competition parts and possibly history sold at auction in Europe for around £ 40,000 or about US$ 70,000 - although the percieved worth is probably higher in Europe than in the US.

It would be nice to get hold of a genuine 1.3HF motor with the correct engine number, although this would be difficult. It wouldn't be too hard to build a 1.3 engine to HF specifications.

[ecoangel]

another small point - the plastic wheel arches do not appear to be fitted in the original way - notice dimples in front ones and rivetted on style here. I think originals had rubber seams and no visible rivetting.

[FulviaFanalona]

The VIN number suggests this is a 1968 car not a 1966 car. If it were a 1966 car it would have a 1.2 engine (the 1.3 did not appear until '67). The VIN 818340...... according to Weernink's book is for the 1.3 HF ('68 - '69). However that said if the shell is in good condition (seams, sills, pick up points) and the drive train is as well prepared as the seller suggests $8,000 does not seem like a bad price - it could I imagine be turned back to a more road focused car relatively easily - and definately resprayed ! Worth checking the VIN as they only produced 882 1.3 HF's so potentially a rare find. Hope this helps.


Just to point out a mistake in Weerninks book you just reminded of cos its so close

818.360 is NOT 13.HF but 1.3s (how could they build 16,827 cars in just a year!)

Altotios book has it correct on page 269 and describes 818.360 as S1 1.3s