Beta Starter Relays for Dummies

[Betazag]

OK...now my 82 Zagato is having that infamous starter problem...you know, when you turn the key and nothing happens(except the fuel pump humming). I believe it is time for a starter relay maybe but this shade-tree mechanic needs some advice on how to buy one and install it. Can you even get to the starter without major surgery? It does not look easy. Share your wisdom, won't you? MR

[Shant Fabricatorian]

Yes, I'm told that once you strip the interior replacing the starter motor is quite easy. Rather inconvenient then that this is a known Beta weak spot.

The good news is that you don't need to do much, yet. I had the same issue not long ago. Next time it happens, get a hammer and tap the end of the solenoid. Worked for me. That'll get a few more starts out of it at least. Eventually you'll need a new one but it doesn't sound like a starter motor failure, I don't think.

[A1.6HPE]

Hello
If you know enough about relays it is dead easy to fit one. If you don't have a clue about car electrics then do not attempt this.
Usually the ignition switch contacts will still be good enough to control a relay so you can use the existing solenoid control wire for the relay. If the ignition switch contacts are completely dead then you would need to fit a push button or similar. On a standard relay the "30" contact should be connected to a permament live using a cable the same thickness as the one that fits onto the spade connector on the starter. A similar cable should be connected from relay "87" to the starter spade. The existing cable going to the spade (or from the push button) goes to relay "85" and relay "86" is connected to ground (cable thickness not important). If you need to use a push button, connect the other connector of that to an ignition circuit - but beware that this will not prevent the starter from being operated when the engine is running.

There is a diagram on http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/leocapaldi/Martini/relay_starter_1.gif


Leo

[dbirrell]

I installed a relay in the sub fuse/relay panel located on the left front inner fender. If you look there you will see a white plastic coated steel plug in place of a relay. It isn't that simple but not much harder to remove the plug, change some wires and install the relay. Cured my intermittant ignition switch starting problems. I'll look and see if I can find the write up on that mod. Drop me a note off list and I'll get it for you.

Dan

[dbirrell]

See if this works. May be the easiest way to get the info out to all.

Instructions for installation of a relay in the starting circuit of the 81 Lancia

Material & tools:
1 headlight relay with terminals 30,85,86 & 87 available at most auto parts stores for about $4.00.
1 push on female spade teminals with locking tab. ( if not available you can cut a 3" section of wire not being used from inside the aux. fuse/relay box as I did.)
3 push on female spade terminal with or without locking tab.
6" # 14 AWG wire.
16 amp fuse
10mm open end, 13mm socket wrench, #2 & #1 phillips screwdrivers, straight seal pick or very small straight blade screwdriver to push in locking tab on wire terminals. Wire strippers and crimpers.
Overview:
The Lancia ignition switch feeds +12vdc from term. #30 to term.#50 while in the start mode. +12vdc leaves the passenger compartment on a red wire yet is a red/black wire on the starter solenoid. The color change occurs in the aux fuse/relay box located under the hood on the left inner fender. There is a small white relay blank pushed into the aux box in place of a relay in the left rear corner that make the connection between these two wires. Please note that the colors of these two wires change once inside the aux box. The red wire changes to green and the red/black wire changes to white. With an addition of two small wires inside the aux box, the relay and 16 amp fuse will be added. After removing the relay blank, I inserted an ammeter in series with the circuit and found that upon starting the car the curcuit pulls about 15 amps for less than one second and then drops condiderably. Remember, this is not the actual starter motor current, just the amount needed to pick the start solenoid and prevent the A/C compressor from engaging when in start mode. In essense, you will be installing a relay to control a relay. You will be moving and adding wires all within the aux box and plugging in a relay and fuse. To get the relay contact numbers, look on the bottom of the relays. #30 is the heavy + load (starter solenoid), 87 is the heavy + feed (from battery), 86 is the ground for the relay control & 85 is the + relay control (from ign. switch). The whole procedure takes about 30 minutes.
Procedure:
Remove - battery terminal & left radiator support brace. Swing brace clear to acces aux box.
Remove aux box plastic cover and white relay blank.
Remove 3, #2 phillips screws hold the aux box to the inner fender and swing aux box up and to the front of the car.
Remove the 4, #1 phillips screws holding the bottom cover of the aux box.
Using a seal pick or other sharp metal pointed object, working from the top of the aux box, push in on the the locking tab on the green/red wire located in term. 85 while gently pulling the wire out from under the box. Repeat removal process on the larger green wire in term. 87. Re-bend the locking tab on this wire and push it into term 85 slot until locked. This is the feed from the ignition switch that will now pick the relay. Make a 3" jumper wire from #14 AWG and put a push on terminal with a locking tab on one end and a standard push on terminal on the other. The locking terminal gets pushed into term. 87 and the standard terminal get pushed onto a vacant fuse terminal inside the aux box. Make another 3" jumper with a standard terminals to go from the other side of the fuse to the + feed terminal inside the aux box. This feed terminal will have three male spade connectors with 2 red wires connected and one space should be vacant. Assemble & install box, brace 16 amp fuse and relay. Keep the - battery terminal loose in case of a wiring error.
NOTE on relay usage. I have many spare relays and do not have a clue what rating they are. I installed a relay marked with a # 107 for testing purposes and it works fine. I intend to find a more suitable relay that is known to be rated for 20 amps for permanent use.

[Miriam]

Thank you all for the information and, Dan, your instinct to post the process for all was dead on. I too am slowly working my way into fixing my own car and this post combined with the excellent advice I received when I posted a similar question have been awesome.

Many thanks.

Miriam

[Betazag]

Thanks for all of your help Dan. If it wasn't for guys like you that are willing to go the extra mile to help a fellow Lancia owner, there would be less of them on the road. I will attempt to install a relay myself...can't be any tougher than when I replaced the power steering rack! I will let you know how it goes. MR

[dbirrell]

Call me if you have any questions or problems. On second thought, call before you have any problems! I have unlimited long distance so I can call you back. Dan 740 852 9577 ( house attached to SUE'S ZAG's garage ) 817 307 7949 Cell.

You are very welcome. There are some great people on this forum that have gone out of their way to help me and this is a way of thanking them.

Dan,
81 Zagato
88 SAAB SPG
88 Fiero Formula
89 Honda Pacific Coast
67 Cessna 150G
and many other fossil fuel wasting toys

[jp]

my thanks as well Dan

I bought my 82 Zag with a starter button already in place and it has always worked for 3 years but I nevber really looked into how it was wired

JP

[scbeta]

so will these intructions work for a 76 or 79 beta?

[SubGothius]

This old post of mine may help clarify the starter-relay concept in theory and practice (http://lancisti.net/forum/index.php?topic=2448.msg12398#msg12398), especially if you have an older car or don't want to fiddle with rewiring the secondary relay box (so the '81+ directions above wouldn't apply) and just want to easily splice a new relay into your existing wiring.

Compare my description with the relay wiring image referred to above (link here (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/leocapaldi/Martini/relay_starter_1.gif)), and you should be golden. ;)

[Will]

That's correct for a Bosch relay- if the relay you have on hand is a Marelli,note that Ground and Batt+ (pins 86 and 30) are reversed, and there's no picture on the can to indicate this.

Most auto-parts store relays come with a schematic either molded into the relay or on a blister-pack, which simplifies things if you don't know how to ring out the relay with a VOM.

OK- here's a suggestion I've implemented in my car:
Run a second wire off the trigger pole of the relay to a momentary-contact switch (I used a rubber pushbutton switch from ioportracing). Cut into your coil wire and add a switch in the coil wire, and at the same time run power from the hot side of that switch to your pushbutton switch.

Now I have a pushbutton switch and a toggle switch in a convenient spot in the engine bay. With the ignition off, they are inoperable so nobody can fool with them/steal the car/whatever.

Once the ignition switch is on with the key, the motor can be turned over with the starter (using the pushbutton with the ignition coil OFF)

OR the engine can be started ( pushbutton with coil ON)

OR the engine can be killed ( coil OFF)

This has proven invaluabvle for diagnostics and general service. As many of us do work alone on our cars, we know how hard it is to do simple tasks like manually choke the carb, etc. while trying to hop in and out of the car to start it.

Total cost: about $15

[Betazag]

I ended up using the cheap/quick method to fix this problem. I spliced into the brown wire that connects to the ignition switch...attached a fuse holder w/fuse to a wire that I connected to the + terminal on the battery. Has worked like a charm ever since. MR

[Will]

That's great except you are still pulling solenoid current demand through your ignition switch if you don't have a relay, the rarity and expense of OEM switches is the reason the previous posts suggested a relay. The 124 guys have a problem with voltage drop to the ignition switch that is often fixed as you describe, but a 124 ignition switch is easier to get hold of than a Beta one. If your car is currently running and the ignition switch seems happy, good. If your switch ends up cooked in six months, make a mental note to add a relay with your next switch- which is not a bad spare part to pick up when the opportunity presents itself IMO.

[Jim Keller]

I agree, you need to do Dan's relay fix, I did that quickie wire fix, it lasted a few months then the problem came back, cleaned all the terminals in the curcuit and that worked for a year, stuck in a new ignition switch and that was good for about two years, the relay is permanent! ;D

[Betazag]

Ok Jim, Will and Dan...you were all correct. My quick fix finally failed while I was out of town. I went ahead and installed a relay per Dan's instructions and she fired right up. Thanks for all the input that everyone gave. Now I can move on to try and find my vacuum leak. ???

Mark R.

[osian]

My car started being temperamental and it got annoying having to plan your journeys around stopping as little as possible!!!

I fit the relay and it wasn't half as bad as i thought... It was made so much easier by reading this post so thank you all for explaining it so clearly!!

This is why forums like these are invaluable to us beginners who have an idea what to do, but just need it explained to give us the confidence.

Thanks again guys!!

Osh