Setting timing

[OperaHawk]

Hi, folks.

This may sound like a stupid question, but how do you set the timeing on these babies? I'm familiar with the 2.2 MoPar engines where you use a timing light on the crank hole just under the left side of the engine, and move the distributor. If this is the same, where's the hole for the crank, and what's a good timing setup? I have an 81 Zag that's been converted to a Weber unit.

Thanks,

Steven Jepson

[Wallace]

Now here's a thing. This is my opinion, but if Will wants to stop downing beer and add to the debate, then do !

Setting an engine to the timing mark makes NO allowances for type of petrol, state of engine, temeprature, altitude etc etc etc . .

And especially in your case where the carb isn't standard. So get the thing running - get compression stroke by sticking a finger in no.1 plug hole and turn over until you feel it come up to compression - then twist the dizzie till the points open - this should be near enough. When running, twist the dizzie til it runs just between the point of smooth running (too much advance) and a little bit lumpy. This will get you into the ballpark.

Now drive it. Retard in stages until it knocks or pinks under load - something like pulling full throtle at 40 in 5th gear - and then move it forward a bit - so it doesn't !!

This is as good as it gets - getting it totally "spot on" (whatever that means) with a strobe is a total waste of time INMHO - there's a couple of degree envelope on the advance curve anyway - and mechanical advance is only a mechanical "best fit" to the actual timing required.

This is how I even timed my turbocharged engine - and I never ever punched a hole in the pistons in 20k miles !!!

[Gregory Smith]

Here's the easy way:

Put front passenger side on a jack stand; remove the road wheel; remove lower, rearmost large round rubber plug in fender liner; clip inductive timing light to #4 plug wire; disconnect and plug distributor advance hose, set timing mark (notch in pulley) to 10º BTDC (lower pointer of 3) at 900-950 rpm. Distributor is held fast by 3 10mm nuts around its base.

The hard way? Dunno never tried it.

[sickchilly]

Easy way?!! What's this about removing wheels and plugs and such? I just open the hood and look down! 8)

[OperaHawk]

Everyone - thanks for the info. The car IS running, and rather well (little bugger pulls like my 86 GLH). The problem is that when it warms up, it likes to stall at idle. So I figure that I'll set the 'dizzy' (love that one) until it even outs at idle.

I'd really love to set the timing (especially if you can do it without pulling the passenger wheel!!!) - there is no timing spot you can see from the top? Grrr... just one of the many Italian quirks I'm learning to live with. The MoPars liked about 12-14 degrees of advance without running too rich.

BTW, any idea on how to keep my tach from jumping? I've never gone from 2K to 7K quicker in my life! :lol:

La forza,

Steven

[Will]

The part about removing the wheel and the fender plug (if your car has one) is to see timing marks on the cover- but there are other ways.

a) IIRC the Zagato has a window in the top of the bellhousing like other Betas, it's just a PITA to see it. Is this correct?:

b) You can drop a dial indicator down through #4 plug hole. 10deg BTDC is equivalent to approx 3.8mm BTDC.

(I just had a discussion on the LanciaScorpion list about this- the spark plug hole is on an angle, but a dial indicator shaft in the "bore" direction fits through just fine- trust me on this.)

I would agree that manual adjustment is pretty much mandatory, advance it till you get the first ping under low rev load and full throttle then back it off a "RCH"- about 2 deg. This equals about 4 crank degrees.

Since the local authorities might frown on you ripping about town with the hood off and your mate giving the dizzy a "rolling road" adjustment, it will probably take you a bit of fiddling to get it where you want it. Or you can just set it to the conservative factory setting and forget it- (most) Betas don't have any power anyway, so if they are running at all then you are better than most :)

FYI I have not yet begun to quaff beer, first I have to wait for the caterer and the guests to arrive at 12:30 NY time, I'm only allowed two "pre-drinks" before the party, so they will be a more effective martini.
I did set up all eleven tables and 40-something chairs on the back patio by 5:30AM though, and if anybody is really interested in catching me quaff beer, part of the patio does show on the webcam. I'll be quaffing all afternoon!
http://www.savetheledges.org/test/webcam/

[monte_giallo]

The way Will and Wallace describe it is the way I have been doing it on my high compression race Monte (was 11.4:1, now less, around 10.5:1).

I wanted to time it to 36 deg BTDC as GC says this is the best timing for maximum power. In practice I had to back it off to 25 deg BTDC to avoid pinking.

I now have some better petrol additive (giving about 102 octane) and cooler inlet ducting, so it should take more advance. Do you think I should time it by the old method for max power, or try for 36 deg as per the book?

Thanks,

Paul

(PS: what's the event, Will?)

[Wallace]

I would set it up by trial and error. - Croft might well have found 36 deg the optimum - but for one particualr engine in one particular car . . . as yours is totally different, it will require ignition timing to suit. Might be worth setting the thing up on a rolling road to optimise the timing at different rpms etc and getting the dizzy modified to suit (change weights, springs etc) But that cost £££££££££££££ !

Can't fit water injection then ?? !!! (even more ££££££££££££££). :wink:

[monte_giallo]

Thanks, Wallace,

I think I'll put in the best possible fuel, then time it by trial and error, so it goes best without pinking.

By the way, is your 'turbo rust heap' the one I saw with another device on it too?

Cheers,

Paul

[Will]

I assume yoiu mean 36 degrees total (mechanical+vaccuum) or have you locked out the vac advance?

Remember, what you are really trying to do here is get the peak cylinder pressure between approx 18-22 crank degrees ATDC.

The milder your cams, the later your exhaust valve opens, which is why the torque suffers on the low end of the hotter cams, but bear in mind this is also going to affect your ignition timing. As your timing gets pushed forward to suit, you start to get pretty close to the detonation edge, so the simplified "answer" is if you have hot cams, just run it up until you just start to get detonation under low RPM, WOT, then back it off a tad.

Since the vac advance and mech advance are only approximations, the elegant solution IMO is of course an electronic ignition controller.

Therefore, at some point you need to make a choice between keeping the car "stock" and original, or making it "modernized". I would not even bother with getting the dizzy dinked around with unless I wanted the car to be original. Instead, I'd put in a digital ignition, or even a DIS.

At $200 for a controller and $40 for parts from the wrecker, this is unlikely to break anyone's budget, although it takes time to install and there's a few new things to learn.

-Will

[monte_giallo]

Hi Will,

You raise a very interesting question: vacuum advance. I had not noticed any fitted to my car. The only reference I can find to vacuum advance is on a breakerless system fitted to US Betas. Perhaps I should have some? If so, where is it?

Yes, I do mean total advance, and I guess when I am timing the car dynamically at 3500 or so rpm (ie, total advance), any vacuum advance (if one is fitted) would not come into play, as the car would not be under load.

My cams are rally rather than race, but definitely hotter than standard.

Personally I don't give a rat's for originality - this is a Fiat (sorry, Lancia)Montecarlo, not a frickin' Bugatti, but the guys who organise my races do, so I can't have any modern systems. I believe I can use 'points-assisted electronic ignition'. I tried to build one, but it didn't work, but I have not had any problems with my points system up to 8,000 rpm. So I can't get rid of my points in any case.

Cheers,

Paul