Engine swaps

[lazy]

Hey guys, Just a quick question reguarding Beta engine swaps and what is possible/works best.

I'm thinking of putting a newer, more powerful and economical engine in, but am not sure what kind of dimensions the engine bay has. If anyone can help me out with these that would be good.

Also if anyone has any links to people that have previously done engine swaps, or to information to engines that work well with the Beta bay, please let me know as it will be much appreciated!

cheers :D

[SubGothius]

Many/most FIAT-Lancia Lampredi twincams should/may work (prolly w/ at least some modification), and some have mentioned trying an Alfa twinspark (is this our block with an Alfa-designed twin-plug head, or not?).

Personally, I'd like to see someone try a 3.0L V6 from an Alfa 164. This transplant has been done to at least one Montecarlo or Scorpion (see the Lancisti Gallery pages), but not to any FWD Beta that I know of, and the164 transaxle was even derived from the Beta unit, so seems plausible in theory at least. Would be nice too, if possible, to retain the Beta's jointed rightside driveshaft setup to mitigate the torque steer which had plagued 164s... 8)

[Shant Fabricatorian]

Alfa V6 might be a tight fit...? :?

Two versions of the Alfa twin-spark. The 75 and 164 have a twin-spark head on the old Alfa twin-cam (1962cc) block, 84mm bore and 88mm stroke. I believe (though don't quote me on it) that this was stroked on early 155s to a spooky 90mm, thereby creating a 1995cc capacity... 8O

That was replaced post-1995 by a brand-new engine developed from the then-new SuperFIRE family (same family as the five-cylinders in contemporary Lancias). 1970cc, 83mm bore and 91mm stroke, the block is unlike the 1.8TS (1747cc) in that it isn't used in any other cars, the 1.8 with normal cylinder head is used in lots of Fiats and Lancias. Though the Alfa engineering is largely in the twin-spark head, the capacity was created by stroking the 2.4 Kappa engine and chopping off a cylinder. That basic motor has been used in every post-GTV/Spider Alfa, now upgraded with direct injection (JTS).

Ok, enough of that. Funnily enough, chatting to an owner of a 20VT Fiat Coupe he mentioned that the mounting positions for that engine are exactly the same as the old (Integrale) motor, so (his words) a five-cylinder transplant should technically be feasible into a Beta?

That said, FWIW I'm personally of the school of thought that says one should enjoy the Beta for what it is. A good-looking and nicely-balanced sports saloon, but one which is nevertheless front-drive and moderately-powered (thinking specifically here of the Betagrale...). If you really want to muck about with Alfa motors, buy an Alfa (or a Thema V6).

[omicron]

Rather than subsititute the engine, what about conversion to an alternative fuel such as LPG?

Here where I am in the UK a litre of petrol is between £0.82 and £0.90p (thats roughly AU$2 per litre) depending on the grade. LPG fuel is currently less than 40p per litre, and if you're lucky enough to have space for a tank at home, can get it at around 25p per litre

LPG returns roughly 10% less power and fuel consumption increases by roughly 10% as well, but the cost saving is undeniable.

[Maigret]

To fit a V6 it would be advisable to fit a radiator similar to VX which is fitted further forward and gives more space.

[lazy]

Thanks for the replies guys, I was actually thinking more along the lines of a newer sporty 4-cylinder engine (like Black beta from beta-boys) where an SR20DE was put in. I'm not really sure what the power comparisons between an newer 'popular' engine like this would be compared to the Alfa engines you guys are talking about, but the popularity of such engines brings a lot of extras with it (cheaper parts, more modifications and more choice on such matters)

I'm not sure if many of you know much about these types of motors, but I would really appreciate any input or suggestions you have :D

cheers

[Frezer]

Alfa V6 might be a tight fit...? :?
Ok, enough of that. Funnily enough, chatting to an owner of a 20VT Fiat Coupe he mentioned that the mounting positions for that engine are exactly the same as the old (Integrale) motor, so (his words) a five-cylinder transplant should technically be feasible into a Beta?

Don't forget that the more modern (delta, thema, fiat) engines have intake and axhaust swapped compared to a Beta. Now, if it would be possible (I don't know this) to fit the head the other way around, to Beta layout, you will have intake and exhaust manifolds sticking out in the wrong angle.

I think the only way to fit them is using the same layout as the modern car uses (thema, delta, which use the same layout as the Fiat Coupe), and I think the engine mounts are a direct match to the Beta ones.

[Frezer]

Rather than subsititute the engine, what about conversion to an alternative fuel such as LPG?

Here where I am in the UK a litre of petrol is between £0.82 and £0.90p (thats roughly AU$2 per litre) depending on the grade. LPG fuel is currently less than 40p per litre, and if you're lucky enough to have space for a tank at home, can get it at around 25p per litre

LPG returns roughly 10% less power and fuel consumption increases by roughly 10% as well, but the cost saving is undeniable.
In Italy you could even order a Beta with LPG from new. Here in the Netherlands it is/was also very popular, most Beta's my dad drove 15-20 years ago where LPG fueled.

[badboyboogzy]

the delta engines and themas would be a real problem as exhaust and intake etc are all bak to front as for putting in a nissan sr or rb 20det its realitivly easy but a shame the car is front whell drive and made to handle a certain amount of power ie the best bet would be 2L engine fuel injected with a supercharger from sprintex but to do this you are looking about 15000-20000 aud for the swap and all the other stuff even using a sr or rb nissan you are looking about 10000aud for the transfer by the time you have change pumps electics computer intakes exhausts mounts permits drive shaft mods brake mods suspenson mods strengthensubframe and chassy rigidity roll cage etc etc thats some serious work and money right there but if you got it do it i suppose my opinion would be use the mitsi VR4 gallant 2L 4G6SE or some such thin it east west 2L tubo and not too big where as the nissan odule although they will fit are gettting old especcially the sr and the rb20 well the money you would spend would buy you a skiline gtst a whole one on the road and running why not try simple methods of more power but keep the original engine juuts replace old with new port and polish balance blue print twin carbs or fuel injection depending on the age you wou woud be surprised what these old twin cam lancia/fiat engines can roduce power wise if you want a drag car swap out the engine with a rotory but if you want a street stip hill climb club meet sprint type thing you can drive every day stay with the original unit and rebiuld it with some new injunuity there is fiat tourge in nsw i think and tony lucente in perth i mean he has a car that would blow your mind 124 sports with a turbo pumping out i think in the 300 plus kw regeion it can be done with the old twin cam mill and then instead of a bitsa you still have a lancia
2L with a 16valve head conversion a delta turbo and a few other goddies from the same car bit of grease a computer bang all lancia but fast as youll take V8s and chew them
do a bit more research onthe original engine and what can be acheved before you start thinking of changining it get the GC book have a look at some of those cars go to fiattorque.com check them out sorry if i rant a bit but lancias are lancias for a reason you swap the engine its not a lancia anymore i mean if you a heart condition would you want a human heart transplant or a pigs hear transplnt
im not knoking the nissan engine or mitsi or any other newer japper i think the power they can produce is incredible but like i said a lancia is a lancia because it has the heart of a lancia (or fiat dependinghow you choose to look at it) so have a look into upgrading your present engine before you go swapping them out for rice rockets and if it were a v6 to e used go ferrari
renay
bbb

[Betzie]

Hi all,

my beta will be coming off the road soon for a freshen up, was hoping to give the engine an upgrade to a 16v head with a low boost turbo and injection, but its concerning me that the exaust/intake are reversed in more modern lancias. :?

which 16v head should i be looking at exactly?

[Frezer]

There are no direct fit 16v heads, because of reversed exhaust and engine tilting to the other side.

I believe in the 70ties some Coupes were build with 16v heads for rallying, but if they are still aroud prices wil be major!

[Wallace]

16 valve heads the "right way around" sometimes come up - Chad fell over a couple - but they went for around 5k each . . and that was about 3 years ago . . ..

Modern Thema type heads will bolt on - but the I think the oil drains are wrong and the exhaust / inlet manifolds are back to front and you'll need a change of pistons . . .

Worth the effort ? Probably not.

[Will]

The early 16V heads are th"Abarth" head, you'll find them on two cars that I know of, the FIAT Abarth 131, and the Lancia 037.
I think STD may have a couple, as may Volta. You may want to check with Dave Beale or Stan Ramirez, I think they were at Volta very recently and should have taken a good mental inventory. $5K USD is about the going rate, unfortunately. Jeff Davison has a (turbo?) 16V (early type head) motor that he was hinting about selling a while back, you could give him a holler if you are ready to take the plunge. Either way, it'll cost ya.

[Betzie]

had a bit of a hunt around on this Abarth head you mention.

found this car locally with a pic of the engine,

altho its a 131 which is rwd, it seem to me to be still the wrong way around for a Beta.

have i got the right one?

http://www.carsales.com.au/pls/carsales/!unique_content.enquiry?vehicle_id=128567&total_rec=1&current_rec=1&winner_date=08-JAN-2005


since found this one, but no reference to if its 16v or not.. looks oldish

http://img232.echo.cx/img232/2654/resim0187vk.jpg

[Shant Fabricatorian]

The first one is definitely an engine transplant from a newer 'wrong'-way around car. Maybe out of a Thema or Integrale, even a Tipo 16V though the power output suggests it's a turbo motor. It has non-standard cam covers which you can make up easily enough.

Latter looks like a standard 131 Racing which is still an 8V 2.0, basically a 132 motor.

131 Abarth and 037 heads definitely fit correctly but the trouble is if you're going to spend that much on the head alone, you could extract much more by spending the money elsewhere. On the other hand, it is pretty cool to be able to say you have genuine Abarth kit on your car. :D

[Betzie]

ok,

searched for the 037 and found this pic

http://www.lanciamontecarlo.net/Rallye037/Gallery_04_03.html

it looks like there would be potential issues relating to the dizzy (altho there would be room in a Beta engine bay sans the battery)

oh well, most likely keep the old 8v banger

[Maigret]

A quick look at the VX and the clearance would be OK for battery but the water pipes would need rerouting. It has been mounted on the Inlet rather than the Exhaust cam on the VX.

[Will]

Batteries are one of the easiest things to move in a car, so that doesn't bother me- a battery in a hot engine compartment seems like a stupid idea to me, anyway (yeah, I know, nearly every car on the planet has this so your battery doesn't leak into your trunk, and can outgas).

I bought an Optima red top for my scorp, which has the battery up front and the motor in the back, and added a second disconnect in the cabin,OK so it takes a few more feet of #4 to get to the starter, big deal.

Yes, Shant Fab. is right, the '76 you linked to has a late-model transplant, might even be a regular 131 that's "rally-ized".

The second one is an 8v.

The dizzy can go just about anywhere, or be eliminated entirely, so I'd not worry about one of those either. Block mount, either cam, end drive, there are options.

Don't underestimate the size of the 037 blower, or the 131 blower, which is even longer in the tail due to the integral oil pump. I've got one of those and it's been sitting in the garage for three years because I'm dreading having to shoehorn the thing in (a Scorpion)!

Nitrous fits anywhere, gives a nice boost from 4-6K, cheap to install. But you have to follow the rules exactly.