Overheating

[Shant Fabricatorian]

Hello everyone. I am relatively new to Betas, having only owned my 1981 HPE FL for about a month, but I have already found the forum very useful, so thankyou for providing such a service :D Anyway, my Beta gave the first hint of serious trouble yesterday, as the temperature gauge went deep into 'hot' territory - as far as the needle could go in fact. Obviously I stopped immediately and waited for the car to cool down, but later that night I diagnosed a broken electric fan. Not a big deal in itself, even if it requires the removal of the radiator...the joys of a cramped engine bay :roll: I wasn't desperately worried, though, until I took it to a mechanic this morning, who suggested a blown head gasket was on the cards. That did have me worried, at least a little :( However, I am a bit sceptical, as none of the traditional symptoms of a blown gasket have appeared - there is no 'soapy' oil, for instance, nor is there excess oil from around the cylinder head, and nor was there undue fluid loss last time I checked (it has been left at the mechanic's garage). My question, then, is have any of you experienced a blown gasket without any of the symptoms described? The mechanic said his suspicions were aroused by the fact that there was pressure build-up when he took the radiator filling cap off (while the engine was still hot - well, duh), and he said that he used a tool which measured pressure build-up to determine that the gasket had failed - I'm sorry I can't be any more specific than that. The car has covered 112,000km, so it is by no means out of the question, but I'm obviously hoping that the broken fan is the only problem. The car is going to get a second opinion on Monday, but in the meantime I'd appreciate any thoughts.

[Shant Fabricatorian]

In addition, there is one thing I neglected to mention. The car had a new cylinder head 14,000km ago, in 1997, so the gaskets would have been replaced at that point, and 14,000km is an abnormally short period for a gasket to last. If the gasket was faulty and/or not fitted properly, it also seems doubtful that it would have lasted that long - or am I mistaken on that point?

[chrisc]

The method your mechanic used to check using a pressure tester would be to put it pressurise the system, then check for fluctuations indicating the system isnt holding pressure (ie coolant going across head gasket). Check it yourself is what id do, and drain the oil and coolant to check those properly. When it comes to expensive work like that, my own opinion is what id trust first. If i had a pound for every time someone had told me I had a blown head gasket when i didnt.. then i wouldnt have all that much money. Id definately have some though!

[rossocorsa]

if your beta got really hot there is a high chance that the gasket will have been damaged , when betas were new failure of the fan to engage when stood in traffic was the #1 reason for headgasket failure. All you can do now really is see how it goes but it's not a major disaster

[Dmitry]

Hellow everybody! I have overtemped my beta HPE 2.0 some times ( to red lite on temp gage) and have not any trobles with gasket-head. I think what not germetisata-ital of gasket take plase in 2 cases: rust of metal rings of cil. and disform of head. It is aviable a hole in head to cooling sistem , but original Lancia head is made by aiuminium and not broken like for ax. Ford DOHC 2.0 made by AL-Mg . I every time chek cooling sistem (for get to it exhaust gas) by chek how pumply pipes in temp below 90 C
IF you did not see output of gas in cool tank and pipes not pumply with closed cooling tank cap when engine runing and temp below 98 C then with gasket and head on your Lancia OK, If not- chek head to sharp when replace gasket! I have observ 10 lancias last 10 years and only one time seen disform of head-thet where Lancia beta cope 1300'79. This head look like head 1600,1800,2000,VX but have lower size valves, and ,i think , made in another teknikal prosses . I wish your replace fan and go to road!
P.S Pass regard to MADMAX!

[andybeta]

Hi Overheated,

I'm sceptical by the claims of your mechanic, whilst excessive over heating can lead to a blown head gasket and also a warped head, I would go with your own gut instincts. Get the electric fan working properly and then see how the coolant level behaves whilst keeping a check on the oil compostition, which you already seem to be doing, and also on the appearance of any oil in the water expansion tank. Beta engines are surprisingly robust. Providing the overheating has not happened on a regular basis you may well be ok. Your mechanic may just be trying to fleece you. What is most likely is that the thermostatic switch on the radiator isn't working so the fan isn't kicking in. You can wire it to check if it is does kick in. If it does then it is your switch. If not, the fan is dead (unlikely in my experience). The thermostat itself could not be opening which will need replacing. All relatively cheap repairs compared to an unnecessary head gasket replacement and all the other problems that could be created.

best of luck,

Andybeta

[Hamish]

A word from hard earned experience :cry: even if you do think the overheat thermo-switch is working by-pass it to a manual switch on the dash, in the long run it's an awful lot safer :wink: and will give you peace of mind when stuck in traffic :evil:

[Shant Fabricatorian]

Just a quick update on the Beta's situation, and thankyou to all those who have put in suggestions.

Got the car back from the mechanic's this morning, without having any work done, as I wanted to have a better look at the car myself. Once again, there is no leakage, as far as I can tell, from around the cylinder head (apart from the usual amount of spilled oil down there), the oil in the sump is 'clean', and again, the sump and coolant tanks haven't lost any discernible amount. Furthermore, there wasn't any oil in the coolant tank, as andybeta suggested there may be...does anyone get the impression that perhaps nothing is wrong with the gasket? :wink:

The car, to the best of my knowledge, hasn't suffered any previous overheating problems - certainly, I've been driving it for a few weeks now without any trouble - and I think I've managed to get away with it. As for the fan, I did check it, and it's not a thermo-switch problem, but rather either a fan motor or solenoid fault (I haven't had a chance to check the latter, but it seems unlikely). Cheap compared to a gasket.

As an interesting post-script to this episode, my mechanic suggested it would be cheaper to get a new engine rather than replace the gasket, as he would have to (poor diddums) drop the engine out, and because it’s, ahem, wet sleeve (???) adjust the sleeves from underneath (don’t know what he’s playing at there, but I’m relieved the car is back in my hands, put it that way). As a show of good faith, he was looking around for a new lump, reporting back that he had found one for $1500Aud. For you over in the UK, that's around 450-500 pounds, give or take, and that's frankly ridiculous, not far off half what I paid for the car.

Moral of the story: shop around for a good mechanic, and ask lots of questions. It will save you time and money in the long run.

[rossocorsa]

I think your 'mechanic' is a bit mistaken? the fiat twin cam does not have wet liners (I presume that is what he is on about) and why on earth would he want to take the engine out just to remove the cylinder head? I get the impression he thinks it's an Alfa Romeo..........

[Will]

Or maybe he thinks it's an Esprit- they have wet liners! Or perhaps he just thinks you are a total idiot- In any case RUN LIKE HELL!
Don't let that moron touch your car!
-Will

[Hamish]

I'm inclined to agree with Will :wink: this 'mechanic' seems more of a liability than anything else :!: Mind you, he could be right - the head gasket could still be blown :cry: but it sounds hopeful :P

[peter_coupe]

Mate, change your mechanic....RIGHT NOW.
It is evident that he have no idea about these engines.
As for the second hand engines, they are like a box of chocolate, you never know what you will get.

He said 1500AUD for second hand engine what is his cut there 150%.
You can get running engine $500AUD (not fitted), check Yellow Pages I was in Melbourne few times, there is Abarth (Emilio P) and also Mille Miglia (he can be expensive).
Shop around, for $2300 AUD someone was selling 83 coupe in good condition.

Ciao
Peter

Peter - I deleted the duplicate of this post. Hamish

[Shant Fabricatorian]

Your advice concurs with my own opinions, there’s no way the car’s getting within spitting distance of said ‘mechanic’ – probably further.

Some domestic issues have recently come up, so the car’s a bit of a low priority, but it shouldn’t be too expensive a fix. However, although I’ve diagnosed the fan motor as broken, or at least non-functioning, I’m thinking it might be a thermostat problem also – it would explain why the car heated up so quickly in traffic, but again, not a big problem. Presumably this is what they mean when they say Italian cars are characterful…or is it just that you need to have a strong character to own one? :wink:

[rossocorsa]

if it heats up real quick in traffic it could have a partially blocked up radiator but first I would get the fan working and see how it goes, if it runs ok at speed I think it's unlikely to be the thermostat

[Will]

My experience with betas is that the fans don't run at speed, only when sitting. I drove a Spider 150 miles with no fan and no problems, only started getting really warm below 40MPH. Above that I don't think the fan should cycle at all, provided the radiator is healthy.
ALSO I had a bugger of a time with mine, if i recall the thermoswitch on the radiator doesn't provide ground through its own body, but a second wire that goes to a hegehog assembly of ground terminals near one of the headlamps. I also discovered that if you disconnect both the fan and the thermostat polarized connectors, it is also possible to revers both sets of polarized connectors and actually get a situation that makes the fan run BACKWARDS
8O
Hope this helps somewhat.
-Will

[Hamish]

I still think it's both prudent and wise to fit a manual overide switch to the radiator fan - this has proved to be damn handy on my current holiday in the depths of Southern England :wink: - and I have used it at speed to cool things down after getting stuck in 'slow' (ie: 30-40MPH :evil: :evil: ) on the motorway; when temperatures have risen above what I'd ideally like to see :wink:
I agree with Will about the earthing though :x it drives me potty :!: and after this quick holiday with 'Mario' I can see the electrics are going to get some serious work done.... :oops: AGAIN :cry: