Fiat Spider engine and EFI transplant

[Anonymous]

I recently purchased my first Scorpion. It is a bit tattered and needs lots of TLC. One of the first things I realized is that is rather underpowered and driveablilty would be enhanced with EFI.

I had an 82 Spider several years ago and remembered how much zip it had. I would be thrilled it my Scorpion ran as well as the Spider.

Coincidentally, only a few days after I bought my Scorpion, I found an 81 Fiat Spider said to be in good mechanical order with a 2 liter efi engine. The price was right ($230) so I decided to pick it up. I havent run the engine yet, but if the odometer is correct, I figure a 54,000 mile set up should still have some life in it.

I would like to transplant the entire engine and EFI system into my Scorpion from the Spider. I have heard it can be done.

Would those who have done the conversion please offer advice and discuss the pros and cons of this conversion.

Thank you,

[Allen Lofland]

I have a 2 liter 1981 Fiat Spider engine with dual 40 dcnf's in my Scorpion and there where NO problems....I have a 82 fiat spider parts car with EFI just waiting :) Some prefere the lancia EFI but some prefere the Fiat Spider EFI, I think it is basically Which do you have to work with. The Lancia doese have a removable Throttle body that allows an upgrade to a Webber Big Bore Throttle Boddie and there are lots of good people here to explain that to you ...WILLL...
I would suggest that you rebuild that engine first and insert HC pistons but thats just my preference :) Have fun.And are you a member of Roamin Chariots and are you aware of MOFLO meeting in June in Osage Beach. YOU GOT TO BE THERE :) http://www.mirafiori.com/~kdickson/
There are lots of Fiat/Lancia folks in your area.........

[Will]

Yes, Terry: It works fine. It'll run on the 1800, or you can use the 2L block.
If you use the 2L block, I believe you'll have to mess with the RH motor mount a bit.
Alternately, you can use a Beta EFI setup, which requires a little more fabrication but IMHO is a nicer setup. There are pictures in my photo album on this site detailing the mods you need to make in order to swing this- and I think DJ has posted Mark Rawling's step-by-step article.
If you need a schematic, or need to know how the EFI works just ask, There's a schematic I drew of the Bosch system, also in that same photo album.
You basically need power, ground, and ignition switched circuits for the EFI, and you'll probably also swing over the (EFI) fuel pump to the dual relay provision for it. Not overly complicated.
-Will

[Allen Lofland]

Motor mount was NO problem on my 81 spider 2 liter transplant, bolted right on :)

[John Allen]

If you use a FIAT block, the 'front' mount is OK... it's the Beta (with it's axle carrier bearing) that is the problem...

If you use the FIAT 2.0L, make sure you change the cam towers (since the engine will be rotated back 20deg.). I would use the Scorpion head on the FIAT block for more compression, but you can't use the Scorpion's intake cam mounted distributor with fuel injection - you must use either the early carb'd Beta exhaust cam tower (use with the FIAT exhaust cam and distributor) or the exhaust cam tower, cam and distributor from a fuel injected Beta....

I personally think the FIAT FI setup is easier to adapt to a Scorpion (done both) than the Lancia.

Good luck!

[Will]

IMHO it is NOT necessary to swap out cam boxes- I can see how this got started, since the return holes are at different heights, but having the oil level at a specific height is nearly irrelevant from a mechanical standpoint.
Some later engines do away with cam "oil bath" altogether.
There's enough flow through the bearings to provide adequate cooling and lubrication for the cams, and regardless of the location of the drain holes, adequate oil will be slung for the shim-to-journal surface lubrication.
The intake cam ends up with a little extra level, but so what? As long as there's no dizzy gear there to froth up the oil, 3500RPM on a cam is hardly going to cause problems.
In short, it would be virtually impossible to cook a cam due to retaining the vertical-engine boxes on a Beta setup- although you will doubtless hear otherwise, as somebody noticed the difference, and that was the start of that whole discussion.
Allen told me his FIAT spider motor went in with no hitch, the Beta needs a standoff on the block cut down and a hole rethreaded (easy), but the 131 FIAT block would be VERY difficult to fit!
-Will
PS>If you want to go ahead and swap cam boxes to be pragmatic, great- I was just saying it isn't absolutely necessary to do so.

[John Allen]

I have a 131 2.0L block in my car as we speak, it is physically the same dimensions as the 124... You may be referring to a smaller displacement 131?? Some of those have a cast-on alternator mount........ This is not what the US 2.0L engines have!

As far as the camboxes are concerned, I would agree that the stock design is probably overkill - though the later design has spraybars as well- but I've NEVER heard of a cam lobe failure on a FIAT (being half submerged in oil) and since the wear is so slight, valve adjustment is almost non-existent. The FIAT intake box on a Scorpion will probably result in more oil leaks from the cam cover, as the oil level will always be above the gasket line (as well as a huge mess when you open it up!).

John

[Anonymous]

Is using the 1800 head on the 2.0 block the best option? Is there a better option like a 1600 head?

Im leaning toward using the 1800 head I have as it was recently rebuilt, and as I understand it, will add compression without spending any money on pistons.

As far as rebuilding the 2.0 shortblock, what kind of wear should I expect on a 54,000 mile engine? Should I just expect to have to replace rings, bearings, and oil pump? Or should I expect cylinder and crankshaft wear?

What is different in the 1800 block, and the 2.0? Is it just the crankshaft? Rods? Pistons? What?

Would a 2.0 crank in an 1800 block make it a 2.0?

Thanks, and sorry if some of these questions are stupid.

[John Allen]

>>Is using the 1800 head on the 2.0 block the best option? Is there a better option like a 1600 head?

The other heads will fit, some require more work (plugging the coolant opening at the front). I'm not sure it will increase the CR that much, as the 1600 engines have a domed piston (where the 1800 & 2000 don't).

>>Im leaning toward using the 1800 head I have as it was recently rebuilt, and as I understand it, will add compression without spending any money on pistons.

I would use the 1800 head (especially if its fresh!). The CR increase is not that much UNLESS you swap out the 1800 pistons (smaller valve cutouts).

>>As far as rebuilding the 2.0 shortblock, what kind of wear should I expect on a 54,000 mile engine? Should I just expect to have to replace rings, bearings, and oil pump? Or should I expect cylinder and crankshaft wear?

I've seen it swing both ways - no wear and a LOT! The crank should be OK (if the thrust bearings are still in place), I've never seen a crank wear out on a FIAT without a major engine failure! I would refresh the bearings and check for wear in the bores, rebore/hone if required....

>>What is different in the 1800 block, and the 2.0? Is it just the crankshaft? Rods? Pistons? What?

The 2000 block is about 10mm 'taller' than an 1800 and the rods are longer, the crank throw larger and the pistons have larger valve cutouts.... so yes, all are different. You can swap out the pistons, but while the crank would 'fit' in an 1800 block & rods, custom pistons would be required to make it work... I think PBS did a conversion like this, way back when....

[Anonymous]

So, the best option for the money would be to use:

2.0 Block, crank, and rods with the 1800 pistons and head? This seems the best bang for buck. Assuming the 2.0 cylinder bores are within spec as well as the crank, all I would need to purchase is rings, bearings, and gaskets. Im pretty sure my 1800 oil pump is fairly new and would transplant it to the 2.0.

What do you think?

[Will]

Been off-list for a bit, sorry;
John- the gasket vs oil level issue you mentioned can be easily solved by drilling a hole or notching one or both of the return webs.
My point was that having the exhaust side welded up to fit a beta isn't really necessary, unless you're just a perfectionist. The motor probably won't care either way.
Terry- if you have a fresh 1800 head, might as well use it- but not because of the compression increase. This due to the fact that the 2L head has a little bit better port design and flow characteristics, they are basically a wash AFAIK, performance wise. Comparing dyno data from similar motors doesn't seem to yeild any appreciable difference, but you could give PBS a call on it, they are IMHO the go-to guys.
Keep the 2L complete bottom end if you can. Measure the bores before making any piston decisions- if you have to get new, might as well go for 9.8's. You can use either oil pump, but the pickup assembly and scorpion oil pan need to stay with the car. Might as well use the scorpion water pump too- bigger impeller to match the convoluted cooling system.
-Will

[Will]

The 2000 block Is about 10mm "taller", but that's OVERALL, don't look for it at the top, it only moves agbout 5mm!
-Will

[DJ]

...Might as well use the scorpion water pump too- bigger impeller to match the convoluted cooling system.
-Will

Just leave it alone and walk away! :wink:

But seriously, this is yet another one of those issues that has been hotly contested by some about the Scorpion (like the bigger valve theory). Some believe it to be an urban legend/myth. Perhaps we could convince our resident Mr. Wizard (Will) to embark on yet another science project (which he doesn't have time for) to clear it up once and for all. :lol:

I suppose we'd need a jig with a motor to drive the pump, an electronic stopwatch, and a calibrated quantity of liquid to run through it or some such arrangement. Just kidding, but it would be somewhat interesting, at least to me.

[Will]

I measured and photographed both pumps for somebody's benefit on another list, they did not believe it but I swear I did not photoshop the pics, one pump (the scorpion's) definitely has a thicker impeller, although it will fit into a standard FIAT block without scraping. How much of a difference it actually makes in flow rate, I have no idea, but the fact that somebody on the design team had bothered producing a dedicated part for this would give me the inclination to use it, personally.
I think the misunderstanding came from the pump in question in this individual's car having been replaced with a standard FIAT item- we all know how short the lifespan of these pumps is, I suspect most of our cars are on number two or three by now! Mine's on at least #2 at 65K.
IAP also lists a different part # for the Scorpion vs Beta pumps, as the mfg numbers are different as well. I'm in the position of having bought BOTH pumps new at the same time, as i used to have both a Zagato and Scorpion. Damn I miss that Zag!
-Will
<busy landscaping in NY- ugh!!!>

[Anonymous]

Ok, I have run across some Beta EFI parts to add to my Fiat injection system. Taking into account the advise that it is not necessary to have the Beta Cam box, cam, and dizzy, I have however, decided it would be nice to have them. Well, if they are not too pricey. Fortunately, I have found these parts for a fair price and have decided to buy them.

Is there any reason I would want the intake cam box? It is from a UK spec engine. I can also get spare ECU. Will this work with my Fiat Injection system? I can also get the Beta wiring harness. Is one harness interchangeable with the other and is one preffered to the other?

How about the ECU? The spare Beta ECU is a UK spec. Is it different than my Fiat US ECU?

[Anonymous]

Will the Beta distributor work with my Fiat Marelli electronic module?

[DJ]

test

[Frezer]

You're right the Montecarlo/Scorpion pump has a bigger impellor. It's the same pump that is used on Beta VX cars.

By the way, I'm also considering EFI on my Montecarlo, altough engine perfomance is not much higher (Euro spec) I think driveability would improve quite a lot. Anyone else done this on a European car?