fsz central track rod

[bmarler]

hey guys,
i need to replace the central track rod on my s1 sport. i should have done this when i replaced all the other tie rod ends, but it seemed fine at the time. anyway, is there anything to look out for when doing this? the repair manual doesn't say much about the proceedure other than use the lancia puller to separate the joint. i used a pickle fork to do the outer ends but i don't think that will work for this job.
can anyone recommend a puller that works for this? does a puller actually fit in there? is it difficult to snake the track rod out and back in?
thanks,
brian

[johnsimister]

I've just overhauled the steering idler box on my car which involved disconnecting the central track rod, and it was easily done with a standard balljoint splitter of the hinged variety like the one in the pic below. I can't guarantee it would be as easy on the steering box side but I don't see why not. Once the ends are free, the track rod should be quite easy to extract.

[bmarler]

thanks john,
i was hoping it would be a relatively easy job. my car is in winter storage now so i can't get a quick look at it before i go to do this swap. i was wanting to gather everything i need before heading to the garage.
i haven't seen that particular type of ball joint splitter before, i'll look to see if i can find one.
thanks again,
brian

[lancialulu]

Brian

I like John have just done an idler box but I used a splitter that sounds like your pickle fork ie it wedges on each side of the joint that you wack with a hammer. Makes a mess of the ball joints but this shouldnt worry as you are changing them!

cant think why there isnt the same limited access on steering box side except you may need to "extend" the end that you hit...

I may be wrong but check on S1 v S2 different trackrod length/shape before buying another.

Tim

BTW Omicron have certain new boots for these ball joints that kinda work if the old ones split for any reason.

[pbharcourt]

I have recently done this job on my Flavia and used the same splitter as john, worked fine but the splitter had to be positioned from the engine side of the ball joint, this made it a little awkward but not impossible.
The reason for having to change the joints was a bit strange, they were not worn or loose in anyway until one day driving along I suddenly had lots of play in the steering, on investigating I found one of the inner ball joints had lots of bits broken plastic in the grease under the rubber boot and the joint was able to move in and out of it's case but was still securely bolted to the arm with it's taper.
I have never had a ball joint fail in this way before so please be aware and if you find strange bits of plastic in the grease change it!

[bmarler]

thanks for the advise all,
i think i will stop by the garage and have a quick look to check the clearance before i tackle this. i imagine i will take my pickle fork as well as try to source this other kind of splitter. (i'm never opposed to have another tool in the box anyway) i think the shape of the track rod is the same for s1 as s2, just different size of joint.
i changed the outer ends shortly after i got the car as it had some on/off throttle steering movement. when i did the outers the central rod seemed firm, but that only lasted for a while. now i have that same problem with the steering and the culprit is the central rod. just goes to show you, when you do this sort of thing you should do all of the affected parts at the same time.
now i'm nervous of the idler box, hope thats not next!

[1,6 HF]

...i changed the outer ends shortly after i got the car as it had some on/off throttle steering movement. when i did the outers the central rod seemed firm, but that only lasted for a while. now i have that same problem with the steering and the culprit is the central rod. just goes to show you, when you do this sort of thing you should do all of the affected parts at the same time.
now i'm nervous of the idler box, hope thats not next!

Brian,

I've always thought that you should consider the two track rods and the center link as essentially a single item. Generally speaking, IMHO the thinking should be "change one, change them all". But there's little reason to worry about the steerng box or idler box. As Tim can tell you, they can fail, but it's a far rarer problem than the rods--mercifully.

[johnsimister]

Before you jump to a trackrod-replacement conclusion, get someone to move the steering wheel back and forth while you're under the car and looking at the idler box, preferably with some weight on the front wheels. You'll soon see if there's any play in the bushes (and indeed the trackrod balljoints). If there is idler-box play it will explain the throttle on/off steering movement. I assume yours is an LHD car like mine, so if it pulls right on deceleration and left on acceleration the idler box is a prime suspect. Mine did that and is now cured.

Ed, I can't say I agree with you about 'change one, change them all'. If it's not worn, no need to change it. Kerbside TREs tend to take more of a bashing and don't last as long, because the edges of a road are usually bumpier than the middle.

John

[bmarler]

i'm going to change the track rod for sure. last time i visited the car i reached down and grasped the track rod and with a little effort i could feel some movement within the ball joints. i will be taking my helper along this weekend when i look at the car and have her rotate the steering wheel while i check for play in the idler box. i suspect the idler box will be ok but i want to be sure before i put in the new track rod. i sure don't want to find the box to have play after putting in new ball joints, there is too much chance of damaging the joints while removing the idler box.
i read somewhere that if a car is put back on the road after a long period of inactivity the ball joints will tend to fail one after another. sure enough that is happening to me. my car sat for many years before i returned it to service. i also have read that the series 1 idler boxes have better bushings than the later ones, and tend to last longer before they need attention. hopefully that will be the case for me. i guess i will know for sure in a couple of days.

[johnsimister]

Are you sure it wasn't just the track rod rotating on its joints, as it's meant to be able to do? The idler box could well not be OK, even on an S1 with phosphor bronze bushes, especially if it hasn't been greased regularly. Mine has an S1-type idler box and even the small amount of wear it had was enough to cause the steering pull.

Fixing the idler box was no big deal. The balljoints came off completely undamaged with the puller I've already described, and a local engineering shop dismantled the idler box, drove out the old bushes, lightly skimmed the shaft which had slight corrosion, machined and fitted two new bushes, and put it back together. Price including a new grease seal from Omicron was £120.

Good luck - and may your idler box prove not to be playful.


PS - it's also worth checking there's no endfloat in the idler box. You probably know this already, but there's an adjuster on the top which you can see if you remove the battery. Screw it in until it just makes contact.

[bmarler]

the play i feel is not rotation. i can feel a distinct, almost snap action. (hard to describe). be sure though, i will be checking the idler box with a very critical eye.
i am so amazed at the small amount of play that results in a large steering movement. i can almost steer the car into a corner with the throttle. (one direction more than the other) at the moment i can't remember what direction it goes with regards to throttle on/off.
good to know that it's not such a big deal to re-work the box though. i have all the tools needed for that. just finding the extra time is the real problem for me.

[1,6 HF]

...Ed, I can't say I agree with you about 'change one, change them all'. If it's not worn, no need to change it. Kerbside TREs tend to take more of a bashing and don't last as long, because the edges of a road are usually bumpier than the middle...

John,

I only base that on what I've seen. And I did say "generally speaking"; if you've replaced the set fairly recently, and you clout a curb hard enough to bend an outer rod or obviously damage a ball joint, then there's no reason to change anything other than the affected rod. But if it's a change due to general wear or "natural causes", then I still suggest it makes far more sense to change them all.

In any case, I'd entirely agree that the idler adjustment should be checked, and the steering box oil should be checked and the box adjusted, too. As you correctly poiint out, if those are mis-adjusted or knackered, no individual rod or complete set of rods will cure the problem.

[marlboro]

With "on/off throttle steering movement",I would be pretty sure that the idler bushes are worn ,you are better off getting the bushes machined up at a local shop and getting them to cut a sprial in them, I think when I did mine, I may have put in a thrust washer, but that a bit ott.

[johnsimister]

Yes, excellent idea to cut a spiral. My man did that, thus improving on the old bushes which were spiral-less. Should be good for another 39 years now, I hope.

[1,6 HF]

With "on/off throttle steering movement",I would be pretty sure that the idler bushes are worn ...

Sounds like a bit of a leap to me. It's clearly an excess compliance issue, but it could be anywhere in the system--steering box, idler box, or one or more of the rod ends, because I've seen exactly the same on/off throttle problem completely cured simply by replacing the rods and adjusting the steering box. Absent clairvoyance, I'd play the odds, which suggests the rod ends, which typically fail more often than either of the boxes. That said, it makes sense to check all the components.

If it is the box, though, I'd agree that a spiral sounds like a fine engineering improvement.

[marlboro]

Best check all the components,before replacing any!

[lancialulu]

My five penny worth is idler box too! I have had two wear and they both produced the off throttle steering sensation. No big deal to fix as John et al have previously said..

Tim

[1,6 HF]

Best check all the components,before replacing any!

Always the best approach.

[GlynW]

When I replaced my track rod ends 10 years ago, I added grease nipples - easy to tap in. So far so good, and another reason for owning a grease gun, but I'll let you know in 30 years time if it extends their lifetime.

Glyn

[bmarler]

well i did check the car this weekend. sure enough the right side track rod joint is the culprit. it has quite a lot of movement, far too much for me to risk driving the car further. the left has a little play as well, but the idler box is rock solid as is the steering box. fluid level is good in the steering box as well. i think i should have room for either type of ball joint splitter, so maybe i'll opt for the hinged type to start. i almost always prefer a tool that has a controlled motion to one that you smack with a hammer. now i'll wait for the track rod to show up and find the time to change it out.
thanks to everyone for all the input!
brian

[1,6 HF]

Brian,
I can't say I'm at all surprised. And if you feel play in the left track rod, I'd strongly recommend replacing it, as well as the right. Otherwise it's just delaying the inevitable.

[bmarler]

when i say the right side track rod joint i meant the joint on the right side of the central track rod. since i will be replacing the rod, both ends will be replaced. this will make all six of the ball joints new. good lesson to me, i will always replace worn units as a group in the future. now i have to do another alignment as well...

[1,6 HF]

Sorry I misunderstood that, but it only reinforces my earlier point. And, of course, replacing as a group does mean only a single alignment per replacement cycle.