Fulvia 1.3 and Weber 35's

[fay66]

I'm sure we've covered this before but I've just searched and couldn't find anything specific.
I've been asked were Weber 35's fitted to Fulvia 1.3's?
Are they suitable for a 1.3 standard road car.?
will they fit the standard inlet manifold
Any advantage over the Solex 35's?


Brian

[Zsport1.3]

Brian,

I think they may have been Dellorto 35 DHLB - My Weber book doesn't list a 35 sidedraught. I think some Dellorto's were sold on ebay by a member here recently - just as good as the Weber.

As far as advantages over the Solex - they are easier to tune in the sense that if you have something that is not totally factory setup you can adjust the choke sizes, emulsion tubes, jets, air correctors, etc very easily. It isn't so easy on the Solex. I'll bet the components are a lot easier to find as well.

However if you have a factory setup you already know all the settings for the Solex - so there may not be any advantage. They probably have different characteristics - even with the same chokes and jets they are not identical because the emulsion tubes differ and probably the accelerator and idle/progression circuits. This last makes a big difference as it is operation until 2500 to 3000 rpm on a Weber.

Bill

[1,6 HF]

Brian,

Bill pretty much answered this, but Solex were the only carbs fitted to Fulvias by the factory. The Dell'orto 35 DHLB were an aftermarket replacement, and they were specifically designed as a replacement for the Solex 35 PHH on the Fulvia 1.3. The DHLB worked on the stock intake manifold, and they were easier to tune, given their interchangeable chokes and easier jet access.

As Bill says, there is no 35 sidedraft Weber, and the Weber barrel spacing meant that DCOEs (or Dell'orto DHLAs) required a different intake manifold (or a manifold adapter). DCOEs for Fulvia applications were 40, 45, and 48 (the last only for the 1.6 engine). And of course, with Webers, the size refers to the barrel diameter, not to the chokes, whch are interchangeable. With the right chokes, 40 DCOEs could be made to work for a Fulvia 1.3; with the right chokes, even 45s will work, though on a 1.3 they're unnecessary for anything other than racing.

[ncundy]

Webers where fitted to the 1.2 HF by the factory according to the TAV(not clear if they were 32 or 35) but not the 1.3's.

[fay66]

Webers where fitted to the 1.2 HF by the factory according to the TAV(not clear if they were 32 or 35) but not the 1.3's.


Thanks Gents for the information.
Neil,
I've just been consulting La Lancia 2nd edition.
Fulvia Coupe and Sports with the 1216cc or 1231cc engines had Weber 32 DOL 2/3's as an option/ Alternative, while the 1216cc Fulvia HF Coupe had Weber 32 DOL 2/2 as an option/Alternative.
The real odd ball Carburettor of the lot was the Solex C32 PA1A 8 compound twin choke downdraught fitted to the original 1091cc Normale, that went out with the introduction of the 2c, and replaced by 2 x Solex 32 PHH 12/14's.
But I much prefer my Dellorto 32DHLB's!

Brian

[Zsport1.3]

Brian,

With the right chokes, 40 DCOEs could be made to work for a Fulvia 1.3; with the right chokes, even 45s will work, though on a 1.3 they're unnecessary for anything other than racing.

The 40DCOEs are pretty good on a full house 1.3 racing engine - they will deliver enough air and fuel for a 1300 Ford crossflow Kent to push out 150HP! 36mm chokes are used along with 9000rpm - eek!
To give some idea of how good the flow is on these carbs - using one barrel of one 40 Weber is good enough to supply an 1100cc race engine at 7500 rpm - above that that you need to go up to the 45. Yes, it seems weird that one would only use half of a Weber but that's what some crazy race rules are like, and the Weber / Dellorto is the best available for power and tuneability.

[1,6 HF]

Neil's correct, as usual: the 32DOL Weber was available for 1.2 Coupés / HF. And it gives you some idea of their relatively tunability that a 32 Weber was considered a substitute for a 35 Solex.

Running 40 DCOEs with 36mm chokes on a 1.3 Fulvia is a insanity on anything other than a pure racing engine. You may be able to run 9000 rpm, but it'll be at the expense of any throttle response below about 5000 rpm. You can run 40 DCOEs on a 1.3 street engine, but you'll need to run them with much smaller chokes.

[Zsport1.3]

Neil's correct, as usual: the 32DOL Weber was available for 1.2 Coupés / HF. And it gives you some idea of their relatively tunability that a 32 Weber was considered a substitute for a 35 Solex.

Running 40 DCOEs with 36mm chokes on a 1.3 Fulvia is a insanity on anything other than a pure racing engine. You may be able to run 9000 rpm, but it'll be at the expense of any throttle response below about 5000 rpm. You can run 40 DCOEs on a 1.3 street engine, but you'll need to run them with much smaller chokes.

Well, racing is pretty insane so I guess that fits well! You are about right with the power band but its not all-or-nothing like a 2 stroke. A 4000 rpm rev band is good on a race engine but as you say, not so great on a road car.

[1,6 HF]

... but as you say, not so great on a road car.

"not so great" would be a real understatement; undriveable on the street would be more accurate. 36mm chokes are pretty marginal even on a street 1.6--been there.

[Fulvia-hf]

Hi Guys,
The HF1200 fitted with Webers used not the DOL 32 but the DOL 34mm fitted with an 28mm choke. The alternative was the common Solex 35mm with 29mm choke. As the 1200 Hf was released in 1966 it was the first Fulvia to use the Solex 35mm as the Coupe Ralley 1.3 fitted with the same 35mm carbs wouldn´t come out before 1967.
The HF1300 was the first Fulvia to be fitted with the Solex 35mm but with 31mm chokes. These carbs would become standard fitment on the later 13S engines.
Speaking of the HF models as homologation specials!
Cheers,
William
HF1.2
PS For competition use both the HF1200 and the HF1300 could be had with special Solex DDHF40mm carbs. These carbs are basically the same as the DDHF42s as used on the 1600 but a tad smaller and only on special order.

[1,6 HF]

Hi Guys,
The HF1200 fitted with Webers used not the DOL 32 but the DOL 34mm fitted with an 28mm choke. The alternative was the common Solex 35mm with 29mm choke. ...

PS For competition use both the HF1200 and the HF1300 could be had with special Solex DDHF40mm carbs. These carbs are basically the same as the DDHF42s as used on the 1600 but a tad smaller and only on special order.

Tav. 10 of the parts catalogue indicates the 1.2HF carb as a Solex 35 PHH-21, and gives a Weber alternate without any additional information--it just states "Weber" with no size or model designation. Weber 32 DOL-2/3 is indicated for "GT-Coupé1,2-Sport 1,2".

The Solex 45 DDHF for the 1.6 variante 1016 is listed in the catalogue along with the standard 1.5 42 DDHF, but there is no indication at all of 40 DDHF for any application.

[ncundy]

Those type of things are usually detailed in the homologation papers and their addenda rather than the TAVs. I haven't got them for the 1.2 & 1.3 HF but that's where I'd look for starters.

[1,6 HF]

I have the homologation sheets for the Sport 1.3S, and the only alternate carb listed is a Weber 35--no 40 DDHF Solex. Possibly, as you say, the 1.2HF or 1.3HF sheets are different, though I would have assumed any carburetion homologated for the 1.3HF would also have subsequently found its way to the Sport.

But, of course, we're discussing both homologation and Lancia, two subjects where certainty is often elusive.

[Fulvia-hf]

Hi Ed,
so proof is what you need!
I you check Enzo Altorios book you will find both the 35mm solex as the Weber DOL 34 listed for the 1200HF.
For the Solex DDHF 40 see the attached specsheet for the semi-works 1300HFSpeciale. (sorry but it is in French)
Cheers,
William

[pbharcourt]

Very interesting William. Does anybody have homologation papers for the Flavia rally cars?

[1,6 HF]

William,

As I said, the parts catalogue clearly indicates a Weber alternate for the 1,2HF, without indicating its size. As the standard Coupé1,2 is indicated as using a Weber 32 DOL, it's no great surprise that the 1,2HF would use a 34 DOL (which Altorio does indeed confirm).

I don't know quite what to make of your French document. It's certainly an official Lancia document, but it's equally certainly not an official FIA homologation document (though some FIA connection might explain why it's in French). And I'm a little unclear on what exactly a "semi-works 1300HF Speciale" is. Neil's point about the FIA homologation documents taking precedence is well taken, but that's not exactly what your document is. And I'd note that many special gear ratios and other parts homologated and intended only for racing do appear in the parts catalogue, typically footnoted as "by request for sporting purposes". It's hard (though not impossible) to imagine the FIA homologating much without a factory part reference. Can you clarify under what circumstances the factory "officially" supplied 40 DDHF carbs that don't appear in the parts catalogue? And what is a "semi-works 1300HF Speciale"?

Please understand that I'm not challenging anyone's information--only trying to understand the context.

I'll go even farther than Phil's question; was the Flavia Coupé ever homologated by the factory? I had thought that the Flavia rally entries were Squadra Corse rather than official factory entries.

[Fulvia-hf]

These documents came with a HFSpeciale delivered to a swiss privateer. I car wich I have seen personally and which fully corresponds to the sheet. It is not a FIA document but a specsheet stating the difference between the cataloqued 1300HF and this competition version. Other pages describe more competiotion parts and modifications to the chassis and equipement. I have a few numbers of those special parts which should correspond to the Tavola but have been deleted in later versions of that cataloque. If you have an older copy (pre '70 print) they could be found. Not in mine unfortunately.
Cheers,
William

[1,6 HF]

William,

You raise an interesting point about the parts catalogue. Mine is late, and looking through it, it seems apparent that some 1,3HF homologation parts must have been dropped in the later editions.

For example, for the 818.540 engine, my catalogue shows two sets of pistons (by which I mean two of each bore/overbore): presumably one standard 10.5:1 compression, and one @ 11.3:1 for the variante 1016. But the catalogue indicates only one set of pistons for the 818.342 engine, and originally there must have been two sets: one @ standard 10.5:1 compression, and one @ 11.3:1, for the variante 1014. And showing 11.3:1 compression and 113 bhp, the documents with that Swiss car mean that it must be a variante 1014.

Interestingly, looking through Altorio and Weernink, I can find no spec for the variante 1014. But obviously it would have had larger carbs than standard. So I think the conclusion must be that Solex 40 DDHF was the carb spec for the variante 1014. Of course we could clear that up fairly easily if someone's got the 1,3HF homologation sheets. (Anyone?)

Do you have something similar that documents the use of the 40 DDHF on the 1,2HF?

[fay66]

I have the early TAV6, do you want me to scan and post the piston information?
Brian

[1,6 HF]

Brian,

I was only using the piston parts numbers as an example of what must be missing. But if you have the carb Tav. from an earlier edition of the parts catalogue, that would indeed be interesting.

[Timo04]

Webers where fitted to the 1.2 HF by the factory according to the TAV(not clear if they were 32 or 35) but not the 1.3's.

Please forgive my ignorance, but what does TAV stand for?

[1,6 HF]

Tim,

Sorry to seem obscure about something simple. "Tav." is just shorthand for an illustrated key page in the parts catalogue.

The Lancia parts catalogues have illustrated key pages with exploded drawings, interspersed with pages translating the key numbers into parts numbers for each model. But where in English we typically use the term "Plate" (abbreviated "Pl.") for such illustrated pages, in Italian the term used is "Table" or "Tavola", and it's abbreviated "Tav.", as here:

3944

[fay66]

Brian,

I was only using the piston parts numbers as an example of what must be missing. But if you have the carb Tav. from an earlier edition of the parts catalogue, that would indeed be interesting.


Hi Ed, I'll have a go within the next couple of days.
On that note if anyone wants anything from the earlier Tav please let me know.

brian

[fay66]

Hi Ed, I'll have a go within the next couple of days.
On that note if anyone wants anything from the earlier Tav please let me know.

brian

Here we go first off TAV13/A Solexes.
for some reason hasn't loaded to here in order I uploaded.:scratch:
0rder should be. 743/744/746/747/748/749/750/751/752/753

Brian

[fay66]

Hi Ed, I'll have a go within the next couple of days.
On that note if anyone wants anything from the earlier Tav please let me know.

brian
Secondly. TAV 13/B Weber Carbs.
Should be 754 - 759

Yet again different to how uploaded:confused:

Brian

[Fulvia-hf]

Found a detail picture of the solex DDHF40 fitted to a semi works 1300HF
Cheers,
William