Larger wheels for Beta?

[Pope1]

Does anyone have experience (and hopefully pictures) of larger wheels (15" or 16") on a Beta? I seen a few with 15" Integrale wheels but that's about it. Just investigating options at the moment but I'm reasonably happy with the current ride/handling compromise so I don't want to ruin it by making an uninformed choice.

Here's a little "experiment" I tried with my car courtesy of Adobe Photshop. No, my artistic skills are not the greatest and I'd want the wheels to have a similar colour to the originals. Have also "lowered" the car by about what I would guess is an inch.


http://home.caribsurf.com/chrysalis/images/vxwheel.jpg

[SubGothius]

I haven't yet "run the numbers" (was never much of a math buff anywho) on what larger wheels would fit, particularly WRT offset and wheelarch clearance, but obviously you'd need to stick to a 4x98 bolt circle, so Lancia, FIAT or Maserati Biturbo OEM wheels or aftermarket-compatibles are what to look for.

Getting the offset correct is the real trick. You'd want any extra width strictly on the outboard side so as not to foul your tires against the strut spring seats, same as the Beta rally cars -- all their extra tire width was on the outboard side, with cutaway and extended wheelarches to clear and cover them. Offhand, I'm not sure how much extra rim width you could accommodate without arch mods, but I'd surmise that 1/2" should be safe, possibly even a full inch-wider rims.

If I'm figuring this right, ideally the new wheels' offset would be less than the stock alloys' 34mm offset by... half their extra total rim width? So for an extra 1/2" (~13mm), you'd want 27-28mm offset; for an extra 1" (~25mm), you'd want 21mm offset. You'd have to compensate any significant variance from those specs with a custom spacer plate appropriately thicker/thinner than the stock plates.

EDITED: Your realistic wider tire sizes would be 195/55R15, 205/50R15 or 205/50R16 -- the first two would be slightly smaller than stock diameter (the middle one moreso), whilst the last one would be very slightly larger. 205/45R16 is feasible but at the limit for 16x6.5" (1" wider) rims and even smaller than stock tire diameter, which would help clear your lower arches but also drag the car a bit lower to the ground as well and make your speedo Speaker of the Optimists Club (the 205/50R15 would be President)! :lol: Sensibly, I think the way to go is 195/55R15 on 15x6" or 15x6.5" -- rim width I s'pose depending on compatible offset you can find; the former would theoretically give better ride, or crisper handling for the latter.

As for wheel style, purely a matter of taste, but I'd personally prefer to stick with an 8-spoke style to maintain the traditional Lancia look. ;) Some olde-skoole Minilite-styled (http://panasport.com/street.html) wheels might look rather nice, and I've often thought that the late '85 Pininfarina (nee FIAT) Spider 15"ers (http://fiatplus.com/wheel30.htm) might look pretty sharp, too (offset permitting)... Just my buck two-eighty, natch. ;)

[Pope1]

I would imagine the bolt pattern is the biggest limitation. Would not want to go too wide for the reasons that you mentioned (it's tight with the 185/65-14 and 34 offset) but as you said there is some room to move out.

I figured that 195/55-15 and 195/50-16 would be the closest matches to the stock wheels.

[SubGothius]

D'oh! Yup, I'd totally spaced over the 195/50R16 (but hey, I've only been up all night :roll: ); that's theoretically very slightly larger than stock, but well within the margin of variance among diverse tire models of the "same" size. 195s would play it safe with arch clearance, as well...

Y'know, the more I think about those Panasport Minilites (http://panasport.com/street.html), the more I'm likin'em... 8)

[Pope1]

Funny you should mention being up all night, because I really got into the Photoshop thing last night and suddenly realised that it was 2 a.m. 8O .

My tyre options had absolutely nothing to do with my own mathematical abilities (although they're not bad) and everything to do with this site http://www.tyresave.co.uk/tyresize.html. I normally go to this one, or one like it, to explore my wheel and tyre options.

Thanks for the Panasport link. Will experiment with those in Photoshop too, although I have a leaning towards the Chromodora Daytona kind of star shape. The Daytonas are very similar to the ones on the Ferarri 308 which have always grabbed my attention for some reason.

By the way, The Lancia Chromodoras are supposed to weigh 11.5 lbs each which I think is pretty good. I'd imagine that almost anything else is going to be heavier and will increase the rotational mass so acceleration and fuel economy may suffer. Just another consideration with regard to the whole wheel thing.

[Fingers]

Hi Chris, I've been thinking about new wheels for the VX for a while too, I really like the Delta HF wheels as you mention above, I also think the later Integrale multi spoke wheels would look good. Like these but not white or five stud pattern, there were some on ebay a couple of weeks ago but I can imagine shipping to NZ would be rediculous.

But I think the best ones if you can get some would be these, but again if you can, they'd be pretty pricey

http://www.guy-croft.com/img11537.jpg


http://koti.mbnet.fi/joonasl/coupe_sin/thumbnails/tnIMG_4818.JPG

There are larger pictures of the blue coupe at this site with a number if different wheels on. http://koti.mbnet.fi/joonasl/

[Shant Fabricatorian]

G'day Chris,

A similar tyre calculator can also be found here: http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html

Also useful as it gives a graphic representation. A bit of fooling around says that for a Volumex (stock size 185/65 R14), a 195/55 R15 is a good size and for all intents and purposes gives an identical speedo reading. My HPE, which was originally fitted with 175/70 R14 Michelin ZXs (funny tyre, look to be more a 165 by modern standards and have a higher sidewall than you'd guess for a 70-series) had 195/65s P4000s on the original 14-inchers by the time I got it, and there were no problems with fouling at all.

When time came for replacement I actually took the unusual step of taking it down a size, to 185/65s Yokohama A539s (which, for the record, is a fantastic tyre, comprehensively un-unstickable, now replaced by the C-drive which is supposed to be even better) on the original Cromodoras. The grip, unsurprisingly, is on another level from the vulcanized Pirellis, even if the Yokis are slightly narrower, but it was actually a practical reason why I did it. Because my car is used everyday and doesn't have the power steering the car has to be driveable in traffic - anything wider than 195s are out of the question if this requirement is to be satisfied and even 195s make the steering more than heavy enough. For my requirements at least, the 185s are a very good balance between ease of driving and keeping the standard, excellent, ride/handling equation intact. For yourself, it would seem that 195/55 R15 might be the way to go - a bit more rubber, but virtually identical diameter and circumference.

Just my 2c though. Incidentally, Tye, I've seen, and liked, Minilites on a Fulvia 1600. But those 131 wheels are highly tempting...

[Pope1]

Some guys in the US are also running 195 tyres on the standard Beta rims but I'm not too comfortable with that idea. I think that 185 is the practical maximum for a 5.5" rim, beyond that I suspect that you get too much sidewall flex and don't benefit from the additional width. I don't have any evidence to support this, it's just guesswork on my part from looking at the way that the 185 tyres fit on the rims. I too used to have 175 tyres on my previous Beta, about 10 years ago now!

I think that you're right 195/55 on a 15 x 6 rim is probably going to be the best compromise if I'm going to change from the standard wheels, especially with the poor roads over here.

Paul, thanks for the photos. It really is a small world. I first saw that gorgeous red Fiat just two nights ago, believe it or not, but the blue Lancia is new to me. Will check out the link.

[Fingers]

Hi Chris, I had an old FIAT 124 sport years ago that had 205 60 13's on the standard 5.5" steel wheels(like that when I bought it) I didn't really notice too much sidewall flex, but I was quite young and new to cars, and it didn't look too flash either really. I've currently got 195 60's on the VX and it seems ok, but I wouldn't go any wider on these rims either.

I'd give my left testicle for a set (5) of those Abarth wheels.

[Pope1]

Be careful what you wish for! :D

[SubGothius]

Funny, I was using the tire calculator at 1010tires.com (http://www.1010tires.com/TireSizeCalculator.asp)! :D Nice, gave me dimensional differences, speedo variance, comparative pix of the side and footprint views between any two tire sizes.

All this classic wheel nostalgia (and the "give yr left one" comment) takes me back to the Slotted Mags (http://fiatplus.com/wheel40.htm) (made by American Racing (http://americanracing.com/), IIRC) mounted on my folx' blood-red '71 124 Sport Coupe, back in Tha Daye (for which car, my Dad would give his left one to get back again! :lol: )... Purportedly, nobody makes the classic 5-jellybean-slot mags like that anymore, so I've heard... :?:

I think the Ferrari 308s' wheels actually were Cromo Daytonas. While they're quite dashing on other cars and in their own right, I personally (and meaning no personal aspersion against anyone ;) ) wouldn't want them on my own car for the same reason I wouldn't want my car painted red -- IMHO, nothing says, "I wish this was a Ferrari I'm driving" (or worse, "I hope you think this is a Ferrari I'm driving"!) like a red paintjob with Daytona wheels. I love my Lancia, and owning and driving it, plenty much thankyuhverruhmuch, no need for wishful thinking or posing otherwise (and I also rather relish public bafflement over just WTF kind of car it is... :D ).

Now, by mention of putting 195s or wider on the stock 5.5" alloys, there was considerable chitchat about this over on the lanciabeta Yahoo!Group (http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/lanciabeta/) some time ago, for which I know Chris Pope was present there, but I thought I'd invite "the rest of the class" here to review a particular posting of relevance; quoting my intro to that post:

This comes from a man retired from Pirelli R&D, the previous owner and junkyard-saviour/restorer of my Zagato, and an avid participant in American Lancia Club meets and SCCA and club racing/rallying, John Hafkenschiel. Suffice to say, this man KNOWS his tires, almost certainly better than any of the rest of us -- his former vocation depended on it, as do his continuing avocations -- and he is also intimately familiar with FIATs, Lancias and Betas in particular, so I ran my inquiries/speculations by him to solicit his feedback, reposted here with his permission for your consideration... I hope you may find this information both interesting and useful...
Read: Tire wisdom from an expert (http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/lanciabeta/message/6459)

[Pope1]

Many thanks for the reminder Tye, I'd totally forgotten about that posting. :oops: Will go and read it again.

[Fingers]

That is a very interesting article. And yeah he sure knows his stuff. I was offered quite a good deal on my tyres, I wanted to replace them after I got my car out of four years of storage. I was offered these GT Radials that are supposed to be pretty good, I've got the top of their range in my size and they are terrible in the wet. I had Goodyear Eagles on previously, and they were much better. Many a time I have rounded a high speed corner on the open road here in the rain and suddenly been in the other lane, I don't drive it in the wet now if I can help it. We don't have any highways in the South Island, they're all just one lane each way and mostly quite windy, it's great, you can have a lot of fun even below the legal speed limit.

[Shant Fabricatorian]

Concur with the above, a fascinating read, thanks for posting it Tye.


I love my Lancia, and owning and driving it, plenty much thankyuhverruhmuch, no need for wishful thinking or posing otherwise (and I also rather relish public bafflement over just WTF kind of car it is... :D ).

Hmm, mayhaps. I've lost count of the number of times when I've been asked what I drive, reply, "A Lancia", with the inevitable reply coming back: "Oh, a Lancer?" (as in Mitsubishi). As a result these days I do a quick character assessment and determine whether the person asking is likely to know what a Lancia is. If not (as for most), then the reply is altered: "It's a Fiat." This has so far not caused as many problems. Sacrilege, I know, but I figure having it called a Mitsubishi is even worse...

[SubGothius]

Mitsu is a bit of an also-ran Stateside, and many folx here would ID "Lancer" as being an '80s Dodge sedan, but I still say I drive a Lancia (pronouncing it like "Launcher" sans the "r" and emphasizing the hard "ch" ;) ) and then watch their face for either bafflement or distantly vague recognition, and I explain "it's a glorified FIAT, kinda like Audis are to VWs" (a historically-congruous parallel). Then their lightbulb goes on. :idea: Or they ask what a FIAT is, and I roll my eyes :roll: and shake my head in sad dismay as I walk/drive away. :?

Since we're segueing from wheels to tires, I've been doing advance research on replacing the Bridgestone Potenza RE92s that came with my car -- actually been meaning to replace these months ago, but has been a moot point with my Zag laid up most of the past few months (http://www.lancisti.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1292), so I've had a lot of time to research and consider my (eventual) purchase. Here are my leading best-value (great performance without overpaying) candidates for new 185/65R14 tires on our stock 14x5.5"J alloys:

In descending order of price: BFGoodrich Traction T/A H-rated (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=BFGoodrich&tireModel=Traction+T%2FA+H) - top-rated in its class, rave survey reviews, much cheaper than the bigger-name competition, but ride could be slightly to the harsh/jittery side, possibly some subtle treadhum noise (the T-rated version (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=BFGoodrich&tireModel=Traction+T%2FA+T) is due for production in our size this month, has a phenomenal 620 treadwear rating, purportedly better street handling and ride than the H and should be slightly cheaper as well);
Yokohama Avid H4S (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Yokohama&tireModel=Avid+H4S) - survey-rated close to the BFGs and slightly cheaper, a very slight tradeoff of traction/handling in favor of smoother ride and less treadnoise (desirable qualities for an open-top car! ;) );
Falken Ziex ZE-512 (http://www.1010tires.com/tirereviews/Falken_Ziex_ZE-512_tire_reviews.html) - cheaper than the above, favorable reports from Beta/Zag owners running these in a 195/60 size (which may be closer to other brands' 185/65), reportedly great grip/traction, but I have reservations regarding potentially unstable handling and poor longevity (treadwear apparently accelerates with mileage);
Kumho Ecsta HP4 716 (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=ECSTA+HP4+716) - the real shocker, survey-rated very close to the Yokos, track-tested roughly equivalent to the Bridgestone Potenza RE92s on my car now (thus my reference for acceptably adequate handling), a bit less treadwear longevity, but at 65% of the BFGs' cost or 75% of the Yokos and RE92s, could be worth a try;
Kumho Touring A/S 795 (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=Touring+A%2FS+795) - another shocker, even cheaper than the 716s and IMHO more attractive sidewalls, but I might find traction/handling a bit wanting, could be worth a "30-day test drive" if available, and if they don't pass muster, try moving up to the 716s or better (mind that these may be similarly undersized as the Falkens).At this point, I'll be waiting for the BFG Traction T/A T-rated to enter production in our 185/65R14 and see at what price it gets listed among the rest of the pack; if it's price-competitive with or undercuts the Yokos, I'll prolly go with this tire.

[_JL_]

Those Fiat 131 wheels are only 5,5x15", offset is too big in the front. Wheel comes littlebit out of the arche.

Later type integrale wheels 16" would be nice or 7x15" wheel with offset 25. Now I have those integrale 6x15" offset 40, there are little space in the back, with spacers. My tires are Barum Bravuris 195/50/15.

[Pope1]

I also do an assessment of the person asking the question (especially as I have the only working Lancia of any kind over here) and have been known to reply "It's a grey one!" and leave it at that :D. It really does get tiresome to hear "oh you mean a Lancer" as though you've got a speech impediment or something.

[Pope1]

Tye, when you were doing your research did you come across anything on Toyo tyres? I was thinking about them to replace my ancient Pirellis as they're available locally and are supposed to stick like the proverbial stuff to a blanket. Don't know much about them though.

[Pope1]

Now I have those integrale 6x15" offset 40, there are little space in the back, with spacers.

Is the space that you mentioned on the outside (between the tyre and the arch) or the inside (between the tyre and the strut)? What size spacers are you using?

[_JL_]

I mean space with tyre and strut. Spacers are original.

[Fingers]

I have exactly the same thing, and when I say "no Lancia!" the usual repsonse is "Who makes those?" Which is normally followed by Lancia and the whole VW-Audi thing, frustrating.

[andybeta]

7.5" x 17" black alloy Team Dynamic with Michelin F1 215/40 tyres all round. 30% uprated gasmatic shocks and lowered on an HPE.
Result : sticks to the road like choclit to a sofa.

[SubGothius]

Tye, when you were doing your research did you come across anything on Toyo tyres? I was thinking about them to replace my ancient Pirellis as they're available locally and are supposed to stick like the proverbial stuff to a blanket. Don't know much about them though.
:arrow: Lookie here for Toyo driver written reviews and survey results (http://www.1010tires.com/tirereviews.asp?brand=Toyo).

Frankly, I've mostly been focusing on brands available via Tire Rack (http://tirerack.com/), simply because of their wealth of easily-referrable and -comparable online info: in-house track-test articles (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testSearch.jsp), superior format for comparing driver survey results individually (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/SearchTires.jsp) and across application categories (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/), and apparently less-daft driver written review submissions (vs. those at 1010Tires (http://1010tires.com/) -- I only even considered the Falkens because of their favorable mention on Yahoo!lanciabeta).

[Pope1]

Thanks, you're a star.

[Fingers]

There was an excellent article in an Australian car magazine last year, no idea which month, with a giant tyre test it made for very interesting reading. They took a large number of everyday and performance tyres and put them through a huge number of tests, such as wet and dry stopping, wet and dry slaloms etc, running a control tyre through each test both before and after each test tyre. It was the best comprison I've ever seen, and I wish I'd kept a copy. And true to form not always the most expensive tyre won.

Getting sidetracked on tyres again.

As far as wheels for the VX I've always like the classic Itallian wheels, they are more stylish and I think they suit the cars styling more than the newr designs, god forbid anyone should put 18" chromed wheels on, it would just need the oversized tacho on the wrong side of the windscreen.

[betadude]

These might not be everyones cut of tea but here is a set of 16"

http://www.discounttiredirect.com/direct/findWheelsBySize.do?wd=16&bp=4-98&rw=

They are also 4x98mm so they will bolt on direct.
Also you can get adaptors for your wheels that change 4x98mm to 4x100mm and the wheel size and offset is endless. I don't know if they work well but I might try them to put some 205/40/17 on my car.

[SubGothius]

I've finally run some numbers on wheel centerline offset compatibility for wider rims, to maintain inboard-side tire clearance identical to stock wheels and thus avoid rubbing tires on anything inside the wheel wells even during sharp turning. Here are the offset figures and suggested sensibly-widest tires you should be looking for with various upgraded wheel widths -- some tire models may fit wider, but I intend this reference for across-the-board appliciability with optimal handling and wear characteristics (as dictated by the tires' fit on the rim and their shape meeting the pavement):Wheel width -> max. offset, widest tires
5.5" (stock) -> 34mm, 185/65-14 or 185/60-15;
6" -> 27mm, 205/60-14 or 205/55-15 or 205/50-16;
6.5" -> 21mm, 215/50-15;
7" -> 15mm, 225/50-15 or 215/45-16;
8" -> 0mm, 225/45-16.Offset variations within a couple-few mm may be acceptable; wheels with slightly greater offset than listed here may be compensated by doubling-up on wheel spacer plates (which run ~4mm thick and clamp the brake rotor to the hub), or by using custom-fab'd thicker spacer plates, in either case along with slightly longer spacer-retaining bolts for good measure.

Note that the wider wheels listed here may well demand wheelarch extensions/flares, as the point of all this is to put all additional tire width on the outboard sides, in order to avoid rubbing the tires' inboard sides in any condition.

Also bear in mind that, with a stock or near-stock engine, wider tires may not appreciably improve handling much if at all -- running good, grippy 185- or 195-series tires on stock 14" alloys, you'll likely run out of guts before you run out of handling grip in most/any situations anyway -- and the added friction drag may actually slow you down; more extensive engine mods, however, may make wider tires more sensible, simply to put that added power to the pavement effectively!

I welcome any further suggestions or critiques in re: the suggested tire sizes, as these were just some best-reckonings I could rattle off quickly for your convenience using an online tire-size comparison calculator (http://1010tires.com/TireSizeCalculator.asp) (the offset figures, however, are pretty much down pat and not subject to further debate :P :lol: ).

[chrisc]

Resurrecting this for 2 reasons - one, its handy!

and second, because I have a new set of wheels winging themselves my way and having read this, I am now worried about the offset and tyre widths - that said ive seen them on an HPE before so they will go!

This is the type of wheel I have bought -
http://home.planet.nl/~koper193/ronal_a1_blackbg.jpg except mine have 'ronal' centres rather than alfa ones.

This is the details as described by someone who uses them on their montecarlo :
The Ronal is 15x7, 4x98mm bolt pattern, 25mm offset. I have Falken Azenis Sports on, I think 205/50-15s

http://www.monkeycage.net/images/09_almost.jpg

My questions are thus - am I going to have problems with fouling the wheelarches at full lock, and also, are 195s too narrow to contemplate on a 7" rim (195s would give me the closest match in terms of speedo accuracy).

I should add that this is the first time ive changed wheel size on any of my cars so err. be gentle if these questions seem a little daft.

[rossocorsa]

195 should be fine on a 7 or 7.5 rim I have 195/45 x 16 on my MG (sorry about that) at the front on 7 inch rims I think can't comment on offsets and so on but i think you'll be pushing it a bit to go wider than 195 and in any case I doubt there is any benefit to going any wider than that

[andybeta]

My questions are thus - am I going to have problems with fouling the wheelarches at full lock, and also, are 195s too narrow to contemplate on a 7" rim (195s would give me the closest match in terms of speedo accuracy).

I should add that this is the first time ive changed wheel size on any of my cars so err. be gentle if these questions seem a little daft.[/QUOTE]


Fitting a 195 width tyre on a 15x7" does seem an odd combination though I think it has been done. The tyre might be a tad narrrow. Check out Chris Long's tyre bible to see whether it is within acceptable margins.

My feeling is that you MAY find the tyres won't hold their pressure compared to being fitted on a slightly narrower rim such as a 6 or 6.5J and also you might find your car has 'strange' handling characteristics. I would have thought 6-6.5J would be the optimum for this tyre size. As I say Chris Long's bible has everything you would want to know about tyres and wheels plus some handy tyre/rim combination calculators where you can input any tyre/rim combination to give you all the info you could ever need such as rolling circumference and % change to standard wheels and tyres for the speedo. For the rear arches of the HPE you may well need a spacer to bring the offset down to about 18mm for a 7J wheel as there is limited space.The back edge of the rear arch near the floor on the inside of the tyre/rim is the critical point where a wider set up can rub. You have to do the calculations. Again Chris' tyre bible is most helpful. The front arches have plenty of space although to retain the same postion of the overall tyre footprint on the road you may wish to fit a spacer. Ultimately it is trial and error to see what works and what doesn't. Go to a local tyre place and see if they can fit you a cheap tyre in the size you want for your rim a part worn tyre just to try on the car and check whether if fits the arches without fouling the body or suspension before you lay out on a full pukker set.

Good luck.

andybeta

[rossocorsa]

i thnk there is unnecessary panic! I had a dedra turbo with 195/50 15 on 6.5x15 standard wheels i fitted momo wheels same tyres but with 7inch rim steering response was massively improved with the wider rim no problem in use