2.0 into Scorpion dipstick/oil questions

[Tony K]

Hello,

The 2.0 from my '79 Zagato is now rebuilt and ready to go into the Scorpion. The following Scorpion ancillaries have been used: water pump, oil pan, oil pump, 1.8 head, intake and carb.

The dipstick tube for the 2.0 is a sleeve that fits into a rubber grommet. The Scorpion 1.8 has a longer tube and stick that threads in. So we're using the Zagato's, the one original to the 2.0.

Not knowing we would need to, we didn't measure the capacity of each oil pan prior to assembly. I realize that at the end of the day, I can just pour the specified amount of oil in and make markings on the stick, but I'm going to ask anyway: Using the 2.0 with its original stick and the Scorp oil pan, are the markings still going to be correct or very close?

And what is the correct measured (quarts) oil capacity? I have the Beta Haynes Manual, but no manual for the Scorpion, so I don't know how much it originally took...

Thanks,

Tony :)

[1,6 HF]

In a situation like this, I wouldn't trust the factory markings at all--a quarter-inch off probably represents half a quart. Why roll those dice? As you say, it's too easy to calibrate it yourself against a known quantity of oil.

[DJ]

Capacities are:

- 5.33 liters without filter change
- 6.22 liters with filter change

As for the dipstick, I recommend that you use the Scorpion tube and dipstick with the stock alternator bracket. It requires that you drill and tap the block for the gland nut but it's really easy to do as the block is actually pretty soft.

The dipstick will then correctly read level because the height of the tube is set perfectly by the angle of the alternator bracket, whether it's a 1.8 or a 2 liter engine.

[riczag]

DJ has given you some capacities but if the oil pan from the 1.8 Scorpion is a different volume to the stock oil pan on the 2.0 liter engine, then those quantities may not necessarily be correct. Just something to consider. I would want to know what the corresponding capacities are for the 1.8 engine before I would be 100% confident on the appropriate capacities.

[DJ]

DJ has given you some capacities but if the oil pan from the 1.8 Scorpion is a different volume to the stock oil pan on the 2.0 liter engine, then those quantities may not necessarily be correct. Just something to consider. I would want to know what the corresponding capacities are for the 1.8 engine before I would be 100% confident on the appropriate capacities.

FWIW, the capacities I quoted are from an Italian Montecarlo user's manual. All Montes had a 2 liter engine and the Monte and Scorpion sumps are identical. The dipstick tubes and dipsticks are also identical. I have sumps, dipsticks, and tubes from both and did lots of measurement and comparison when I built my 2 liter.

[Tony K]

Thank you all for your replies. :)

DJ -- I am taking your advice. Unfortunately, the engine has been rebuilt and assembled already, and I have limited time to work with, so instead of using the gland nut, the Scorpion dip stick tube is going to have to rely on the rubber grommet from the Zagato, perhaps with a smear of silicone seal, too.

One thing I am not clear about is the height of the tube being correct by being set by the angle of the alternator bracket. Let me surmise the following: 1) The height difference in the block doesn't matter because the hole for the dip stick tube is in the same position at the bottom of the block; and 2) The alternator mounting casting is likewise near the bottom of the block, below where it is "stretched", so the adjustment bracket attached to the cam housing will angle lower with the taller 2.0 than the 1.8 . . ??? Am I understanding this, or what am I missing. . . ?

Thanks,

Tony

[riczag]

From what you are saying, I think that it would be best to make your own callibrations.
Set up the tube as best suits the fitting. Pour in 5.22 litres of oil (I am assuming that you have changed the oil filter). Run the engine (to charge the filter). I would warm the engine fully up and then leave it for 24 hours so that the oil takes up its true height. Measure this on the dipstick and mark. This would be the bottom level. Then add a further litre of oil (thereby making up a total of 6.22 litres). Again warm up the engine, leave it for 24 hours to allow the oil to fully settle and then remark the dipstick for your top level.
This would provide you with a 1 litre spread between top and bottom marks. Of course, very often there is a larger difference than that and if you feel comfortable with running the engine with a lower level of oil, you could set say 4.22 litres as the bottom oil mark. The same procedure as above except that initially you would fill 4,22 litres and then subsequently you would add a further 2 litres to ascertain the top level marks.
I am not familiar with the engine and enquire whether it has an electronic sensor for low oil levels. If so, consideration may need to be given to the position/workings of that sensor.

[Tony K]

Well, of course I am going to check the stick markings against the actual measured amount of oil I put in the engine, but I still like to know and understand things, and if I can possibly use the stick with its original markings, I would like to. :)

[DJ]

Well, of course I am going to check the stick markings against the actual measured amount of oil I put in the engine, but I still like to know and understand things, and if I can possibly use the stick with its original markings, I would like to. :)

You can certainly go through all the evaluation and calibration you want. But if you simply use the original tube, dipstick, and alternator bracket you can use the factory markings with no worries.

If one were to take a completely stock engine and try to do precise calibrations against the dipstick markings and the precise amount of oil specified in the users manual you'd still find some amount of variation.

I wouldn't get too hung up this. Just make sure you have enough oil as specified in the manual and make sure the dipstick markings are close and that you maintain good oil pressure.

You should really put more effort into making sure your oil pump clearances are within specs.

[riczag]

Tony
If the height and/or angle of the tube is different to original spec, the dipstick will inevitably not be lying in precisely the same location (as per its design location) and therefore the fixed markings will inevitably measure differently to original spec. If the height and/or angle are radically different, it is conceivable that the bottom marking on the dipstick could in fact be the full 6.22 capacity of the engine/sump.

The point is that if there are differences in the height/angle of the tube, you will never know how accurate the markings on the dipstick are without measuring these against a known quantity of oil.

So one method would be to fill the enginne with 6.22 litres of oil. Make sure that the oil filter is fully charged and then adjust the position (height/angle) of the tube until the dipstick picks up the top marking.

[riczag]

Tony

I have just seen DJ's comments and I am fully with him that you should not get too hung up on this. Obvioulsy, you do not want to run the engine with too much oil and definitely not with too little, but in practice there is a wide latitude between these extremes such that the margin of accuracy does not have to be so high.

[DJ]

One thing I am not clear about is the height of the tube being correct by being set by the angle of the alternator bracket. Let me surmise the following: 1) The height difference in the block doesn't matter because the hole for the dip stick tube is in the same position at the bottom of the block; and 2) The alternator mounting casting is likewise near the bottom of the block, below where it is "stretched", so the adjustment bracket attached to the cam housing will angle lower with the taller 2.0 than the 1.8 . . ??? Am I understanding this, or what am I missing. . . ?

This goes to a long-standing myth about the Scorpion and Montecarlo engines that states that if you install a 2 liter engine in the Scorpion you need to either use a Montecarlo dipstick or recalibrate your Scorpion dipstick because the 2 liter block is taller than the 1.8 block.

However, the Scorpion and Monte dipsticks are identical. This was a bit confusing at first until I figured out that the design engineers already covered this contingency with the simple and ingenious adjustable height tube and alternator bracket arrangement. (This flexible arrangement also allows you to adjust the tube enough to compensate for any differences in level markings on the stick should you want to attempt a really precise calibration. Not necessary IMO, though.)

I have some old pictures some where to prove that the dipsticks are the same. And FWIW, the oil pan/sump part numbers are identical for the Scorpion and Montecarlo.

The only part of the block that is any different is the very top with a bit more cylinder length added. The lower part of the castings are identical between the two engines.

On a 2 liter engine the alternator bracket simply sits at a slightly different angle (steeper, if you will) because of the taller block. Because the dipstick tube is captured by part of this bracket, it's height is set by the angle of the bracket.

You should be able to use the rubber grommet at the block with the Scorpion tube. However, you will not have anything that holds the tube firmly in position. You also won't have the round metal cover to seal the top of the grommet like the Beta tube has so you may experience some leakage around it.

You could resolve the issue with holding it in place by using a clamp on the underside of the hole where it goes through the alternator bracket. That would prevent the tube from moving upwards from vibration and or when you remove the stick for checking level.

Just get the alternator belt in place and tight, then make sure the tube is set all the way in so that the expanded part at the top is firmly set against the rubber grommet in the alternator bracket. Then clamp it underneath to keep it from moving back up.

[Tony K]

On a 2 liter engine the alternator bracket simply sits at a slightly different angle (steeper, if you will) because of the taller block. Because the dipstick tube is captured by part of this bracket, it's height is set by the angle of the bracket.


So, then, basically what I surmised is correct?




You could resolve the issue with holding it in place by using a clamp on the underside of the hole where it goes through the alternator bracket. That would prevent the tube from moving upwards from vibration and or when you remove the stick for checking level.


Yes, this is what I am planning to do.

[Tony K]

Tony

I have just seen DJ's comments and I am fully with him that you should not get too hung up on this. Obvioulsy, you do not want to run the engine with too much oil and definitely not with too little, but in practice there is a wide latitude between these extremes such that the margin of accuracy does not have to be so high.

Don't worry -- I don't get hung up on these things; just whenever I learn something, I prefer to understand why, as opposed to simply remembering. ;)