Reverse lights --Series 2 Coupe

[Rick]

Couple questions-- Where is the switch? I assume inaccessibly attached to the top of the gearbox. The wire diagram links it to an emergency light switch? Hmmm..didn't know about that or where it is. Any ideas on this fix welcomed. Do the lights only work when the running lights are on? thanks as usual. Rick

[Zsport1.3]

Rick,

The reverse light switch is on the gearchange extension, near the gear lever end on the left side. A push-to-make plunger type, operated by a little steel tab.

It's a long time since I did this but I think you can get to look at it by removing the rubber gaiter, but working on it may have to be done from below.

Bill

[riczag]

Rick
Bill has answered your question regarding location.
The lights only work when the side lights or headlights are on.
The Fulvia was very advanced for its time. Not many cars of this era had reversing lights. The thinking behind the fitting of these was that reversing lights are required to help you see what you are doing when going backwards. This is only a problem at night, hence they only come on when the lights of the car are switched on. Nowadays, the modern thinking is that reversing lights are there to warn other users that you are manoeuvring. Often there is only one tiny light on modern day cars, whereas the Fulvia has two decent size lights which at least shed some light on the scene (although on the cars where I have no bumbers, I have fitted an additional red lamp to the offside to be used in poor weather conditions, and an additional wide beam fog light on the near side which comes on in addition to the reversing lights - this really sheds some light and makes reversing even in wet conditions a delight).

[riczag]

Rick
My observations were based upon UK spec cars. Suddenly realised that you have a US spec car. This may well have a different set up, no doubt depending upon whether, at the date of import, there was any compulsory safety legislation dealing with lighting. I would have to look at a US wiring diagram to answer your question regarding the powering of the system.

[Rick]

Rick
My observations were based upon UK spec cars. Suddenly realised that you have a US spec car. This may well have a different set up, no doubt depending upon whether, at the date of import, there was any compulsory safety legislation dealing with lighting. I would have to look at a US wiring diagram to answer your question regarding the powering of the system.


Woe! thanks for the thought but it is a Eyetalian car. Unlike the 1.2 red one FS in Hertford I commented on, this one swam across. I suspect as long as the shift pattern is the same (as it is everywhere, regardless of which way we drive) it should be the same. I suspect the tab is broken ? maybe that actuates the switch. No big deal here as the Road Nazi's haven't added it to the list but they will as it's fresh in the wind.

My Giulia super is the same with the lights on only.

[1,6 HF]

Rick
My observations were based upon UK spec cars. Suddenly realised that you have a US spec car. This may well have a different set up, no doubt depending upon whether, at the date of import, there was any compulsory safety legislation dealing with lighting. I would have to look at a US wiring diagram to answer your question regarding the powering of the system.

Rick has an S2, for which there is no US spec, for the simple reason that US importation of the Fulvia essentially stopped at the end of 1967. But AFAIK all Fulvias have the same reversing light set-up.

It's possible that the shift lever tab is broken, but that's far less likely than a simple wiring issue (bad ground, loose connection), or a case of the switch position needing adjustment.

[davidb]

FWIW I was told by a knowledgable Lancia mechanic many,
many a yr. ago that Fulvia [AND Beta] reversing switches
were prone to failure, i.e. mechanical e.g. stuck plunger, etc.
Both my Scorp. & LBZ needed new switches. Six hrs. for the
LBZ switch replacement! Hayne's manual states: " ... really
well hidden." And I would add: "virtually inaccessible."

[Rick]

FWIW I was told by a knowledgable Lancia mechanic many,
many a yr. ago that Fulvia [AND Beta] reversing switches
were prone to failure, i.e. mechanical e.g. stuck plunger, etc.
Both my Scorp. & LBZ needed new switches. Six hrs. for the
LBZ switch replacement! Hayne's manual states: " ... really
well hidden." And I would add: "virtually inaccessible."

No surprise. thanks

[davidb]

The Road Nazis WILL add it to the list Rick! I failed my
inspection for reverse lights: sometimes they came on,
other times not. Of course NOT during the inspection.
As much as I dreaded doing it I had to put in a new switch.
That said Ed has a valid point re: the shift lever tab.
For your sake Rick I hope it's merely the switch.

[Rick]

The Road Nazis WILL add it to the list Rick! I failed my
inspection for reverse lights: sometimes they came on,
other times not. Of course NOT during the inspection.
As much as I dreaded doing it I had to put in a new switch.
That said Ed has a valid point re: the shift lever tab.
For your sake Rick I hope it's merely the switch.

Massachusetts has the inspection of REV lights in place but my guy never looks. It pays to go to a place where they have some appreciatio for the finer things in life.
Just curious if anyone has the Engine/Transmission laying on the floor and can take a photo of the switch. It would help me to locate it maybe. Thanks

[riczag]

I have seen Ed's point regarding checking first the wiring. I wholeheartedly agree with that comment. Whenever there is an apparent electrical problem, first port of call should always be to check out the wiring. Earth faults are common on older vehicles, but this is unlikely if the other lights in the cluster are working (ie., the rear, stop and indicator lights) since I believe they share a common Earth.

What you can do is bypass the switch (which is item 68) at the 6 junction block (item 27). There you will find the grey (gricio) lead which goes to the back of the car (junction connector 51 drivers side which then goes back to the reversing lights).

The 6 connector block has a number of leads going in/out. Looking at the diagram, and numbering these clockwise from top left 1 to 6 (ie., 1 is top left, 2 is middle top, 3 is top right, 4 bottom right through to 6 bottom left) the lead to the reverse lights is the grey lead position 6. The grey lead picks its power up from a grey/black (grigio/nero) lead (also position 6 the other half of the connector) which is the output from the reversing light switch. The input power lead to the that switch is grey (grigio) lead also to be found in junction box 27 at position 3. The real power into this circuit is the white lead (bianco) which is the other half of the connector at position 3.

Thus the circuit is: power into junction 27 as white lead, out as grey lead to reversing switch, out of reversing switch as grey/black lead which returns to connector block 27 and joins grey lead which runs to back of car to junction box 51.

I do not know whether you have a volt meter/circuit tester or whatever these are called in the States. If you do, it should be easy to check to see positive voltages.

My suggestion is that you open up junction box 27. Couple a lead from the positive terminal of the battery and dab this on the grey lead located in junction box 27 at position 6. This should then power the reversing lights and they should come on. If they do, you know that the wiring from Junction box 27 is in order.

The next test is to bypass the reversing switch (item 68). Disconnect the junction box (ie., pull it aprt/open it). Run a wire from location 3 (ie., the white input wire) to the grey output wire at location 6. This is essentially a repeat of the above test but this time using the embedding wiring. Switch on the lights and the reversing lights should come on as well. If they do not, then it would appear that there is a fault in the wiring from the junction box to the ignition switch (more likely to the on/off switch for the side lights) but it is difficult to envisage that this is a problem since the white power lead at location 3 also goes on (via a white cabale) back to junction box 51 to power the rear lights.

If the reversing lights do come on when carrying out the above test, then the fault is in the wiring from location 3 (the grey wire to the reversing switch) or the switch itself or the grey/black wire from the reversing switch back to location 6.

At this stage, I would consider the problem likely to be a switch problem (mechanical) rather than in the short wiring runs, but who knows, maybe there is a nick in one of these capables or the wire has broken off from the terminal. A physical inspection of the switch at this stage should identify. If you have access to the switch but do not wish to remove this (because of access problems), run a wire directly from the positive side of the battery to where the grey wire is terminated on the switch (just clean the push in terminal/contact). Select reverse (the ignition does not need to be on) and the reversing lights should come on. If they do not, relocate the wire from the positive side of the battery to the grey/black wire terminal. The reverse lights should come on (irrespective of whether reverse is selected or not). If the reverse light did not come on when the positive battery lead is terminated to the grey wire terminal but do come on when the battery lead is terminated to the grey/black terminal it is defintely the switch and you will have to remove and repair/replace.

References are taken from a 1600HF wiring diagram. I don't have ready access to the earlier diagrams (but I expect that it is the same).

I hope that this assists.

[riczag]

I dont know what happened but 68) should have read 68. Item 68 is the reversing switch located at the gearchange extension..

[Rick]

Thanks very much!

[1,6 HF]

I'm not saying I don't completely trust that "experienced Lancia mechanic", but it may not be that hard to unstick a plunger switch. If the rubber boot is missing (easily a 50/50 chance), a little well-aimed WD40 may take care of a stuck switch.

But I'm not at all convinced that it's a stuck switch, for the simple reason that it would mean the switch is stuck in the out position, such that the shift tab can't push it in. And that seems hard to believe.

If the problem is the switch, it's far more likely that the switch has been threaded too far forward, so that the shift tab cannot push it in far enough to make contact. And if that's the case (or if a wire has come loose at the switch itself) and the boot it still in place, it will be hard to access without dropping the subframe (or just the gearbox). If the boot is missing, it might be possible to do it all by feel, but of course that assumes you already know what you're feeling for, as it'll be blind.

In any case, Richard's diagnostic protocol seems like a useful way to approach things.

[Zsport1.3]

I had to fix my switch when I first had my Sport many years ago. I can remember being able to see it, and put my fingers on it from above through the gearchange extension hole. But I think (and my memory is vague as it was 30 years ago) access to remove it was only by getting underneath. It wan't particularly hard though.

I think the switch and tab were mis-aligned in my case.

Most likely culprits are:-
Switch; operating tab; ground wire; connectors to switch and lamp.
IIRC the lamp was grounded through its fixing to the bumper - so there was only one wire to the lamp.

It is possible that a wire has been damaged near the switch or the lamp but it's the least likely unless you have had some work done recently.

Bill

[ncundy]

The switch is just under the end of where the gear lever the would join the remote (top right of photo). You can only get at it from underneath (put the front wheels on small ramps), but you won't have to take anything off but the rubber shroud.

You'll either find the contacts are dirty or the switch body is buggered. Simple enough to diagnose, getting a new switch is a bit of a pain - I took the guts out of mine and made a new one out of a piece of nylon bar on a lathe.

[1,6 HF]

The switch is just under the end of where the gear lever the would join the remote (top right of photo). You can only get at it from underneath (put the front wheels on small ramps), but you won't have to take anything off but the rubber shroud.

You'll either find the contacts are dirty or the switch body is buggered. Simple enough to diagnose, getting a new switch is a bit of a pain - I took the guts out of mine and made a new one out of a piece of nylon bar on a lathe.

Just checked, and Neil's right--it can indeed be accessed from below without much trouble. And that also applies to the S2 5-speed gearbox, not just the the early piggyback.

[Rick]

Mea Culpa..Asked before I searched. Yep, the switch is easily accessible from below. Without a peak under, one would expect the worst but in fact it is just as Neil and Ed say. I don't have ramps but it was easy to locate with a mirror and a work light.

I started tracing the wires from the engine compartment to it as they are the only two wires feeding back behind the side of the air intake funnel on the firewall along the top of the gearbox as seen from the engine bay.33013302

Sure enough they lead one to the switch. A little wiggle at a connection and it's good to go. These type switches almost cannot fail because they are as simple as a door chime button.

I have taken a few photos, one kind of a "aim and shoot" on my back to show where the switch is and how simple it is to access.

Thanks for all the support and discussion. I'll down load the photos in the Fulvia section.

[riczag]

Rick

Very pleased to hear that it is now working. It sounds like it was a dirty contact. No great surprise there especially given the age of these cars and particularly with respect to items which pick up road dirt/spray etc. Sometimes the simple action of pulling apart a contact/junction box and putting it back again is suffient to clean a contact although spraying with penetrating oil (or better still electrical cleaner) and rubbing lightly with fine emery paper (about 800 grit) is best.

I have owned Fulvias for 35 years and on none of them have I had a problem with the reversing switch. Generally speaking, the switch gear on the Fulvia is very much over engineered (just look at the quality of the switches on the steering column compaered to the flimsey modern day versions and the pull switches which are more like the heavy duty contacts that you see on high voltage applications).

Of course, electrics on Italian vehicles is not without its fault. This is usually due to being overcomplicated (compare the wiring of a 60s Italian vehicle with a British one of the same era) and with complicated solutions, problems arise and when they do arise, they are frequently more difficult to track down.

Whenever there is a fault (and this is particularly so with electrics), my adage is always look first for the simple explanation before tackling the more complicated explanation.

[Fulvia]

Rick

Of course, electrics on Italian vehicles is not without its fault. This is usually due to being overcomplicated (compare the wiring of a 60s Italian vehicle with a British one of the same era) and with complicated solutions, problems arise and when they do arise, they are frequently more difficult to track down.



As the owner of several British Classics over the years, of all levels of sophistication, I must say the one ongoing constant is that the electricals are the one thing that WILL let you down. Unfortunatley for Mr. Lucas (and Sons!) they were forced to build to a price in most situations. This led to quality problems. Hence all the Lucas Jokes (Such as the ever popular Lucas-"Prince of Darkness" T-shirts, and my favorite, a picture of the Lucas factory with the Caption "Jos. Lucas and Sons, Our Motto "Home before dark" and of course the eBay sales of "genuine Lucas smoke" to put back in once you have let it out):). In the Rolls-Royce and Bentley world, after WWII, the majority of problems were due to overcomplicating relatively simple functions (such as the wiper park function on Silver Shadows). On the other hand, I have had very minimal problems on Italian cars I have owned (Alfa, Lamborghini and now Lancia) with respect to electrical issues. Sure most of them don't like to shift into 2nd gear until thouroughly warmed up (not a problem with my Fulvia though!), and some mechanical wear issues due to relatively high revs possible for the period (Lambo heads ran cams in the aluminum without bearings which lead to early wear and smoking (both on the cars part and the owners part while waiting for the bill :)!)
Dave

[Rick]

.....I have had very minimal problems on Italian cars I have ........high revs possible for the period (Lambo heads ran cams in the aluminum without bearings which lead to early wear ...Dave

as do Alfas but they never wear out

[ncundy]

As do Fulvias apart from the nose journal.

[Fulvia]

Well I have no long term experience with Fulvias (and have not had time yet to study the engine!), but my experience with Alfas agrees with what you state. My last was an early 90's spider veloce. Never a problem mechanically. Great car. The Lambo was a great car also, but did wear at the cam "bearings" in the head. Mine was an Espada, fantastic thing, great sound, wonderful handling and amazing luxury and comfort. Still sorry I sold it.