Died, won't restart

[SubGothius]

Something really perplexing has grounded me now -- this, after being off the road for well over a month until last week, when I'd finally acquired and installed new OEM tie-rod ends in my Zagato (full backstory on that debacle in "lanciabeta" Yahoo!Group (http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/lanciabeta/) archives, before I joined here) and then thoroughly enjoyed a glorious few days with my newly-precise steering, until...

This past Monday morning, when I started up the car to return the loaner tools to AutoZone to get my tool deposit back, it died on me half a block up the alleyway from where I'd parked and started it up, and then refused to restart. I got some help pushing it back into a parking space to tinker with basics underhood and keep trying, but no joy. Went out to tinker and try some more yesterday morning, and again a few moments ago, but still no joy; it'll shudder and "clear its throat" a couple-few times at first crank after sitting a while, like it's about to fire up, but then eventually does nothing with continued cranking. :evil:

It's a 1979 2L w/ stock Weber 30/32DHTA carb (Cali garrote), electronic (non-points) ignition (I think identical to, or at least replaced by, a GM Camaro coil and control unit), and electric fuel pump (mounted in back). I have verified that: Fuel is flowing all the way to the carb; The strainer at the carb's fuel fitting is clear; I can see fuel squirting down the primary carb throat when I move the throttle arm by hand (while the fuel pump's running, natch); I get spark by grounding the coil hot lead while cranking the engine; I get spark by grounding each of least two (#1,2) sparkplug leads (couldn't back the plug boot off the other two leads enough to see spark); Accelerator pedal does actually move throttle arm; ;) Timing belt appears intact. :D I suppose the next step is to check the plugs, but I wouldn't expect them all to have fouled, so shouldn't it at least start and run, albeit perhaps poorly? Eneywho, I wanted to solicit other suggestions first -- y'see, when I had the pre-purchase checkup done this past February, the shop had said that after doing a compression check (all good and even, BTW), they needed to chase the sparkplug threads to get the plugs back in properly. They'd recommended just leaving the plugs in until I could get the plug holes Helicoiled (or I'd prolly do Wurth Time-Serts (http://www.timesert.com/sprksert.html) myself instead), so I've been putting off even removing the plugs, let alone redoing the threads, until absolutely necessary.

Have I overlooked anything, or will I have to bite the bullet and take the plugs out, then risk being stuck anyway until I can afford to order and install a Time-Sert kit if the plug threads are dodgy? :(

Speaking of plugs, has anyone tried using the Lodge Golden HL plugs with the 4-ground surface-gap design? Alfas like running these supposedly because the design works well with hemi-heads, so with the Lancia hemi-headed design, I thought I'd give them a try... 8)

[abaturbo]

hello it sounds kinda fuel related although how did it die on you?
if you pump the accellerator a few times before turning the engine does it try to fire?
also is there another fuel filter between the pump and carb?
as i had a similar problem with a mitsubishi colt turbo many years ago and it turned out to be not getting enough fuel to run as the fuel pump had a built in filter which was rather dirty.

[SubGothius]

hello it sounds kinda fuel related although how did it die on you?
if you pump the accellerator a few times before turning the engine does it try to fire?
also is there another fuel filter between the pump and carb?
as i had a similar problem with a mitsubishi colt turbo many years ago and it turned out to be not getting enough fuel to run as the fuel pump had a built in filter which was rather dirty.I started it up, ran a bit rough and phlegmatic-sounding at first as usual when waking up in the cold (don't we all ;) ), then I pulled out of my space and turned down the alleyway, and then it passed out in the alley before reaching the end of my dozen-space parking row -- I started out at one end of the row and am now parked near the other end, right by where it nodded off.

It seems like it's trying to fire up at first, but I don't get more than a couple-few coughs/sputters; after that, I'm just wasting battery power cranking the engine any further (all I get then is that clackety-clackety sound that says I've already cranked too much so stop cranking already :roll: ). It's like hearing someone clearing his throat like he's about to speak but then remaining silent. :evil:

The fuel filter underhood, inline before the carb is fairly new, but I think there might be another filter mounted at the tank/pump end in back. However, I do get a steady stream of fuel from the very end of the fuel line (pulled directly off the carb), and when it's attached, operating the throttle does squirt fuel down the primary barrel.

I'd also pulled out each of the screw-in jets, only one of which seemed to have any schmutz on it, which I cleaned off. Also, the fuel cutoff solenoid does click when I dis/reconnect its wire while the key's on.

[Fingers]

Have you run it very low or out of fuel recently, sometimes there may bit a bit of debris hanging around in the tank that has just moved and may intermittently blocking something. While we're on the subject does your fuel pump run continuously? I'm having trouble getting fuel to my carb and I'm wondering about the pump, seeing as you're having a bit of trouble you may now be intimitely aquainted with it.

[SubGothius]

It's got about 1/4 tank now, was sitting parked for a month or two with about 1/2 tank until I successfully installed my new tie-rod ends last week, then I drove it around town a bit for four days, including a good "Italian tune-up" blast around the western foothills Sunday night before stopping by the grocer then returning home.

The aftermarket electric fuel pump seems rather sensitive to overall load on the electrical system (as described in more detail in this thread (http://www.lancisti.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1224), which you may find helpful), but it does at least run constantly whenever the ignition is turned on (i.e., it doesn't cut out or run intermittently, nor is it wired dependent on anything beyond igniton-key accessory power). The flow of fuel at the carb end of the line seems constant, not exactly blasting outta there nor a mere trickle, just pouring smoothly without apparent surges or hesitation.

[Fingers]

Thanks, yeah have read that thread now, I had a quick look last night and couldn't find anything, I'll get under the car this weekend and check out the wiring and pump, and with any luck it's just dirty connectors. I'm going to replace the fuel line all the way through to the engine too, just incase, it was in storage for four years while I was away from home. As for your trouble, dunno? Maybe it's best just to start at the tank and check everything until you get to the engine(that's what I'll be doing), luckily it's not a complex system.

[SubGothius]

I just looked for a second fuel filter back by the tank or pump and didn't find one, so I guess I was misinformed about the car having two filters on the fuel line, since I didn't find a second filter mounted up front, either.

By now I'm inclined to think fuel delivery is unimpeded, so my problem may well be spark-related. True, I got spark from the coil lead and from the #s 1 and 2 sparkplug leads, but how strong that spark actually was(n't), I couldn't tell, nevermind what might (not) be going on with #s 3-4.

Also, I've suspected my carburetion has been at least a tad rich (even tho' it's adjusted as lean as it'll go), as I get dismal fuel economy (15-18mpg city, 20s hwy) and have nearly unavoidable lift-throttle backfires out the exhaust, particularly when the engine's cold, moreso lately in chillier weather, so I s'pose the plugs could be fouled enough to keep startup ignition quenched until it's soundly flooded.

Unless someone comes up with another idea to check first, I'm going to remove, inspect and, if necessary, clean or replace the distributor and rotor (gonna need to borrow a longer screwdriver to get it undone!). If it still won't start fter that, I'll have no option but to pull the plugs for inspection and hope I can get them or replacements back in soundly!

[sickchilly]

I'm pretty sure they didn't have a 2nd filter by the tank or pump stock. Mine purchased with under 40k miles from teh original owners sure didn't. But after cleaning a tank that sat for almost 8 years with less than 1/8 a tank of old fuel, you bet your lifesavers I put on pre-pump just to be sure!

[cthargiss]

From the symptoms,and what you have already checked, It sounds as if the timing belt might have jumped a couple of teeth on the exhaust cam. Check to see if the timing marks line up correctly. How many miles on the belt? I consider 40K to be absolute maximum!
Craig

[SubGothius]

Someone else had also emailed me privately to suggest a similar, obscure timing-belt issue, namely stripped teeth on an otherwise-intact belt. I really wasn't expecting such problems, as the timing belt was among the many items listed by the car's meticulous restorer/PO as having been replaced since the odometer rolled over at 100kMi, and it still hasn't passed 120kMi yet; however, I gather the car was not a daily driver and thus may well have more age under its belts than actual mileage alone would suggest.

Eneywho, just went out and had a close look -- tough to see with all the plumbing in the way and had to crank the engine'round a few times before it stopped someplace where I could compare timing marks, but...

The cam cogs do appear considerably more than "a couple teeth" out of sync. I gather the hole in each cog should align with the protruding marks cast into the end of their respective camboxen, i.e. so those timing holes would appear tipped towards each other; instead, the timing holes appear in roughly the same absolute positions, i.e. both pointing at "1 o'clock" past a vertical orientation, so the exhaust cam is about as far past its mark as the intake cam is behind its mark!

Well, then. :evil: I guess I can at least give thanks for the non-interference top-end design of the 2-liter engine, and be glad that the belt didn't actually break and risk the crank smacking into the aux-shaft lobe... :roll:

Seeing as I can't afford to have a pro correct this for me, looks like I'll soon be initiated into the Esoteric Order of DIY Beta Cambelt Refitters... Ah well, I guess that Tercel cambelt I replaced for a friend several years ago was kinda karmic warmup for this challenge, but this job will prolly have to wait for the New Year unless I can somehow get my shiznit together for this next week...

[abaturbo]

i notice there is a picture of the timing assembly in rossocorsa's Albums in the gallery if this is of any help :?:

[Fingers]

I have a sneaking suspicion that not everytime they pass the timing marks on the castings that the cam wheel timing marks will line up, becaus they go at half the crank speed, but it does sound like yours are out, but check after doing a few more revolutions anyway, just to be safe.

[Hamish]

......Well, then. :evil: I guess I can at least give thanks for the non-interference top-end design of the 2-liter engine, and be glad that the belt didn't actually break and risk the crank smacking into the aux-shaft lobe... :roll:


Errrr, it's not a non-interference top-end....... 8O At least, when it happened to me :oops: (stripped belt on n/a 2 litre) there was indeed damage to 2 exhaust valves :cry: So I hate to be pessemistic, but unless there's a major difference between North American and Euro engines (that I'm not aware of :oops: ) then the head should come off for inspection - or am I worrying too much :?:
Guess it depends on just how much cranking you've done to try and start the old girl up :?: 8O

[SubGothius]

Hrm, ye sure that was a bone-stock 2-liter, then (no high-comp pistons, 1800 head, big valves)? I'd read all over that the 2-liters (at least the lower-compression US version ;) ) have nominally non-interference tops, but rare circumstances could violate this -- i.e., snapping a belt in exactly the wrong way at high RPM, or in cases where the engine has been modified with non-stock components that interfere. I suppose it's possible this "common wisdom" only applies to FIATs, proper, and not to 2Ls with the different Lancia heads... :?:

The cam cogs are the same size and thus should stay in sync with each other, regardless of in what ratio they turn relative to anything else.

[sickchilly]

The US-spec 2-liter is non-interference as far as piston to valves goes. But there is interference elsewhere. #2 big end can still smack the aux shaft fuel pump lobe (yes it's there still even in FI cars) and potentially put a nice big hole in the side of your block.

Also there is valve to valve interference. I doubt it can really cause valve damage, but I suppose if you snapped a belt at very high rpm, maybe the valves could have enough energy to collide with enough force to cause some damge, but that's not very likely.

In the US, we got 8.5:1 pistons on our 2 liters. I believe the rest of the world got 8.9 or 9.1. So the greater world's 2 liters may well be able to smack valves with those pistons.

[Maigret]

The holes on the cam pulleys and the pointers should line up every 2 revolutions. Set to TDC and make sure they line up. Do one extra revolution if necessary. If you have a block mounted distributer you will need to check alignment of Aux pulley too.

I replace my cam belts every 2 years regardless of mileage as the belts age and get damaged with oil dust etc.

[Will]

Trent's on the right track- the US 2L has got deep valve cutouts in the piston top. The piston crown height and combustion chamber (head) volumes are identical, and this DOES account for the different CR's .
The intake valve can hit the piston on a small-cutout piston that lacks the big US-spec "safety cut". I think the same is true of the Vx dished piston but I'm not sure. The bigger supercharged systems (Abarth R10,etc) go back to a flat top piston with the small cutouts, so timing is again an issue.
On stock 2L head, the valves should (barely) clear each other, I have got them close to touching but can't actually "hang" the valves up on each other on a 2L. If a valve were floated or dropped though, then yeah, valve to valve clearance could get ugly really fast.

[SubGothius]

The latest in this saga:

I finally got all the bits and tools I need to replace the timing belt, but ran into one obstacle and made one alarming blunder.

First, my boneheaded blunder. I'd taken the plugs out so I could turn the crank by wrench, and stuffed some paper napkins in the plug holes to prevent any debris from falling in. You may recall that I was dreading removing the plugs, as I knew from the pre-purchase shop inspection that at least one plug hole was nearly stripped and would likely need to be rethreaded with inserts.

BTW, Guy Croft himself (via email) warned me off the Wurth Time-serts for this application, as the counterbore tends to go too deep for proper plug seating and they can unthread too easily. He recommended Recoil Plug-Saver (http://www.alcoa.com/fastening_systems/commercial/en/brand.asp?parent_cat_id=685&cat_id=685&prod_id=1103) inserts instead, which are solid like Time-serts (and unlike Helicoils, tho' apparently Helicoil sells these rebranded under their own label, but I digress...) but they have a knurled section of threads to resist unthreading. Amazingly enough, I found a $30 kit with step-tap and a selection of inserts, house-rebranded at the local AutoZone (a US discount autoparts chain store), so was no big hassle to get "the good GC-approved solution".

Anyway, back to my blunder, the stripped plug hole was #4, and with all the plumbing and whatnot in the way, I simply could not get my hand in there well enough to start the tap properly. So I decided to pull off the heater hose emerging from the head right next to it. Of course, a fair amount of coolant splashed out before I could get the disconnected hose upright, and said coolant, of course, drained to where? You guessed it, right into plug hole #4, soaking right thru the paper napkin loosely stopping the hole, and trickling right down into cylinder #4. 8O I will pause a moment now, so you can finish laughing and regain some composure. :lol:

Of course, my battery's dead from all those cranking attempts, so I couldn't just crank it'round a few times with the plugs still out to blow the spilt coolant (or most of it) outta cylinder #4. So I resorted to sticking long strips of cotton rag (actually cuts from an old cotton sock) into the plug hole, extracting it, wringing it out, lather, rinse, repeat, until a dry rag re-emerged barely damp. There may be a couple-few CCs of coolant left in there, for all I can tell, but will it do much damage to leave things like this? Or so long as there isn't enough to hydraulically block cylinder compression, would it all just evaporate and burn away when I finally fire up the engine again, no harm done?

Now, for the obstacle: I cannot seem to figure out how to get the A/C compressor belts off. Yes, beltS -- plural. One goes around the crank pulley, P/S pump and A/C compressor, and the other just goes around the crank pulley and A/C compressor alone. I slacked off the only two bolts I could find on the outboard side holding the comp. to a bracket -- the lower bolt hole on the bracket is slotted and would apparently allow the comp to pivot towards the engine slightly to remove the belts, but the comp still won't move. Are there other bolts, perhaps on the inboard side somewhere, that I'd need to slacken, as well? I saw some "maybes" in the region of the oil filter (horizontal filter pointing to front of car), would prolly have to remove the filter to get at those properly...

Thx for any advice you could provide!

[SubGothius]

The latest in this saga:

FYI, to get the A/C and P/S belts off, one needs to slacken a turnbuckle of sorts that pivots the A/C and P/S pumps together to adjust belt tension (the turnbuckle nut moves clockwise, as viewed from above, to loosen ;) ). This turnbuckle is accessible with a very long 12mm wrench thru the front facia under the bumper (the longest 12mm wrench I could find at a reasonable price was the PowerBuilt polished combo wrench sold at Checker/Schuck's/Kragen: $~6 for the one or $~20 for a nice set). However, the turnbuckle was well near seized up, so a liberal application of PB blaster was allowed to soak in, then I had to use a crowsfoot socket on a footlong extension coming down from above on a large ratchet handle to break it gradually loose -- that was a real piece o'work! :evil:

After I finally got all the belts off, I discovered the tensioner bearing was well and truly shot (I'm guessing the shop to which the PO took it for its last t-belt replacement, less than 20k ago, charged him for a new tensioner bearing that they didn't actually install, thinking the old bearing seemed good enough still...) -- so that certainly explains how the belt slipped by several teeth over the exhaust cam cog! Finally located an OEM bearing assembly (complete with shell and lockring), so now to put everything back together again (hoping this will be like the drive home, which always seems quicker than the drive out! :lol: )...

BTW, some other died-won't-restart suggestions offered elsewhere were: Bad engine grounding strap (this apparently runs from the battery (-) terminal to a bolt securing it underneath the battery tray, then from there to a bolt on the top-rear region of the transaxle housing -- some cars may also have another grounding cable going directly to the alternator);
Bad low-oil-pressure sensor -- apparently activating this sensor, aside from lighting the oil-pressure warning lamp on the dash, will also cut the engine as a failsafe (not sure if it cuts fuel or spark?) in case of neglect or sudden oil loss! However, if the sensor itself goes bad, that can also cut the engine "for no apparent reason"; my car's PO had showed me where he pulled the wire and taped over its terminal to eliminate this potential problem, for those of us who actually monitor our car's oil level and pressure; ;)
Wiring connections on bulkhead (fusebox?) awry -- one fellow had tracked this down on his coupe after reinstalling his cylinder head (and thereby inadvertantly disturbing his wiring loom);
Obviously, check distributor cap+rotor for cracks, carbon, gunk, etc. -- in one contributor's case, a hi-output coil had burnt right thru the rotor, shorting the cap to the dizzy shaft itself! 8O Also try replacing the rotor and/or cap anyway, as I remember my father's FIAT 124 coupe had once died, back when I was but a wee lad, due to an invisible, internal hairline crack within the rotor itself.

[SubGothius]

Okay, I got everything reassembled, thought I'd aligned everything correctly, but it didn't fire up and run as expected, not even poorly, just a lotta cranking and a few random huffs and chuffs (similar to, but a bit more regular than, the cranking behaviour evident at the beginning of this whole drama). I'm wondering now if perhaps I got the crank timed incorrectly...? :roll:

Instead of having marks around the 1 o'clock position moulded into the timing belt cover as earlier cars have (and as depicted in the dealer shop and Haynes manuals), my '79 2L engine has a 3-pointed metal indicator mounted at roughly the 10 o'clock position -- presumably, the larger of those 3 pointers would be TDC. Should that largest metal pointer be aligned with the fat, raised line cast into the side flank of the crank pulley, or would that line actually point closer to 1 o'clock (where the t-belt cover pointers of yore would have been found), meaning that the metal pointer should actually align with some other mark on the pulley? :?:

[sickchilly]

2 liters have the setup you describe. It was earlier cars that had the marks on the cover.

So you need to align your crank pulley mark to the long mark about 11 o'clock.

[A1.6HPE]

Hello Tye,
My car is an 1983 1600 HPE. Here is a photograph of the crank pulley when the camshafts are lined up with their pointers.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/leocapaldi/tech/Beta_Crank_Pulley_1.jpg
As you can see the keyway in the shaft point vertically (in relation to the base of the block) when numbers 4 and 1 piston are at top dead centre. You can only see that with the pulley off of course.
The timing setup requires four things:
Camshaft pulleys aligned to pointers
Crankshaft set so that 4 and 1 are at tdc
Auxiliary driveshaft pulley aligned with pointer
Rotor arm pointing to plug lead for number 4 cylinder

When the cars left the factory they were timed on cylinder 4. Sometimes this gets changed to cylinder 1 by untrained mechanics.
Assuming that your car has the block/aux shaft mounted distributor, the distributor may need to be inserted.
Check the thread "Timing Issues (again)" in Beta Forum for more.

Best regards, Leo

[SubGothius]

2 liters have the setup you describe. It was earlier cars that had the marks on the cover.

So you need to align your crank pulley mark to the long mark about 11 o'clock.Right, but which crank pulley mark? Does the big, raised line cast into the side flank of the pulley align with the metal pointer teeth, or would that mark still point roughly where the old cover marks were, with some other mark (e.g. a notch cut into the edge of the pulley?) aligning with the metal pointer teeth?

[sickchilly]

If you have any doubt, put a dowl down the #4 or #1 spark plug hole and adjust the crank to TDC. Then see which mark lines up. Put some bright paint on it for future reference!

With #4 at TDC ready to fire (verify both #4 valves closed) the crank should line up on its mark, the cams should line up on their marks and the dizzy rotor should be pointed at #4 terminal.

[SubGothius]

Gr! :evil: Turns out I had everything right in the first place; i.e., the fat, raised line cast into the side flank of the crank pulley is indeed the TDC alignment mark. Apparently someone prior to my ownership of the car had installed the dizzy a notch or two off-kilter, such that the aux shaft when properly aligned "by the book" puts the hot end of the rotor a bit past the #4 terminal. 8O I could roll the aux shaft back a bit to put the rotor squarely at #4, since it apparently ran fine in that state before my t-belt slipped, but knowing the interference issue with the fuel pump lobe on the aux shaft and having a taste for things being "just so" regardless, I guess I'd rather pull the dizzy and get it well and properly situated to fire #4 when the aux shaft is properly timed.