Engine oil/filter

[SubGothius]

On the heels of our recent discussion of gear oil (http://www.lancisti.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1209), I thought I'd start this dedicated thread to ask which engine oil and/or filter ye've been most satisfied with using for your Betas.

Let's make this a true International effort for the benefit of all, as most oil brands aren't available worldwide, and of those that are, different products are often found in different countries under the same label -- e.g., the discussion forums (http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi) over at BobIsTheOilGuy.com (http://bobistheoilguy.com/) are rife with praise for GC -- not Guy Croft, much as we may praise his name here :), but rather, German-made Castrol Syntec 0w30 (tho' I'm inclined to suspect this oil may not be ideal for our engines).

For starters, I've read that our beloved Lampredi DOHC engines prefer thicker oil (e.g., Castrol GTX 20w50) and ample oil flow over the finest-grade (thus restrictive) oil filtration available -- not at all surprising, given the olde-skoole Italian penchant for designing competition-bound engines with fairly loose tolerances to allow for thermal expansion in racing and wide oil galleries to keep the oil flowing copiously.

I'm now using Valvoline MaxLife 10w30 (mixed 1-qt. full-synthetic to 4-qts. regular MaxLife, which latter I think is a syn-blend anyway), but that's primarily because of a recent full-price rebate promotion, so I think I'll at least be moving to a thicker grade next change-out. I was fairly satisfied with the Mobil DriveClean-Plus synthetic-blend high-mileage formula 10w40 I was using before; it even seemed to stop some oil loss (consumption/seepage) I'd noticed since getting the car this past February (no idea what oil it came with), and the latest GL-4-compliant MDC+HM reformulation looks to be even better.

I've been doing a lot of research about suitable oil filters, as the venerable Fram PH7 is often tough to find at retail and, as I've discovered, Fram's reputation among lube/filter cognoscenti is that, well, "It's not Scottish (http://snltranscripts.jt.org/91/91escottish.phtml)" 8O (audio link (http://sounds.wavcentral.com/televis/snl/scottish_crap.mp3) :lol: ). Last time, I'd tried a Purolator PureOne filter for its ultra-fine filtration-test results, but I wasn't completely comfortable feeling it might have been too resistant to oil flow. Since learning more on the subject, I've now changed to a Baldwin B2 (http://catalog.baldwinfilters.com/PartSpecification.asp?partnumber=B2) as of my latest oil change (altho' their BT5 (http://catalog.baldwinfilters.com/PartSpecification.asp?partnumber=BT5) is the more exact swap for a Fram PH7), and I can expound on the many reasons behind this decision later, but so far I'm quite satisfied with it (in theory and in practice ;) ) as an optimal choice among filters available in the USA.

[Shant Fabricatorian]

I think for any car as old as the Beta and with its state of engine tune (i.e. not unduly stressed, certainly not in the manner of a blown Delta motor or high-tune BMW Motorsport motor, for example) a mineral-based oil is the way to go. Semi-synthetic if you must, but personally I'd avoid fully synthetic, it's just too efficient for the engine and is not good news. And it costs a fortune, which is important if you're tight, like me. (I was chatting to my mech recently and was informed that the Selenia synthetic which all 156s MUST run on if they aren't to blow up costs no less than $70 per litre 8O ) However, that said, if you do have a modern car that needs fully synthetic, I'm reliably told that Agip does it better than most.

My preference for Australia's climate is an Australian brand, Penrite's HPR 30 20W/60, for both engine and gearbox: http://www.penrite.com.au/nextpage.php?navlink=db/productview.php&id=5 Main reason for this is because, unlike a foreign oil, Penrite is designed specifically for Australian conditions, and isn't a Euro or American oil with a few additives thrown in to make it work in Australia and our unique conditions. That alone should make it better, but Penrite is also a dinkum company which is basically just interested in developing oils that work for people like us, so I like to support them.

I agree with the analysis of the Lampredi twinks needing thicker oil. Also bear in mind that ultimately we are talking about a 1972 design here - anything with the viscosity of water (like 0W/30, for example) is just not going to suit it.

My knowledge of filters is limited so I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts on the matter.

[duncan23]

Fully synth not good for the engine? Huh?
I can understand not using the 0W30 type of fully synth, but you can get 10W40 and 15W50 in full synth (and I think I have seen 20W60 as well). Isn't the factory reccomended oil 10W40? So what's the problem with using a fully synth with the same viscosity as the reccomended mineral? OK, so it's more expensive, but it should last better meaning you can have 6000 mile changes instead of 3000 mile ones.

If I can find a local supplier I plan on using Fuchs Unic 10W40 Synth. At under 20 quid for 5l, I don't even have a problem with the price. If I can't find it locally I may end up ordering some from http://www.opieoils.co.uk/lubricants.htm though it starts to become more expensive due to postage.
I guess it's all relative to the local conditions though. I hope standard oils will work here, figure the UK is a fairly standard sort of climate?

[SubGothius]

I think for any car as old as the Beta and with its state of engine tune... a mineral-based oil is the way to go. Semi-synthetic if you must, but personally I'd avoid fully synthetic, it's just too efficient for the engine and is not good news. And it costs a fortune, which is important if you're tight, like me.That's why I'm inclined to go back to the Mobil DriveClean-Plus hi-mile synthetic blend I mentioned. It's actually only about ~20-25% "true synthetic" Group-IV/-V/PAO (polyalphaolefin) base oils -- primo-grade stuff like Mobil1, Redline, Selenia, etc. -- blended with Group-III "quasi-synthetic" uber-processed dinosaur (mineral) base oils. The Gp-IIIs are cheaper and easier to make, and what most the synthetic Johnny-come-latelies are bottling as their cheap (or even expensive!) "synthetic" oil; however, it still counts as dino oil for applications where dino counts, since that's what it's made from (being chemically/catalytically processed, not just normally refined, makes it arguably "synthetic"), whereas PAO/Gp-IVs/-Vs are chemically synthesized from non-oil component ingredients.

The MDC+HM blend is also fairly thick for a 10w40, fairly cheap (US$2+change per qt., even less on sale), and has a nice HM additive pack for engine-cleaning, seal-swelling and wear reduction/compensation. I'll prolly wind up changing-out the MaxLife 10w30 well before its worn out, since it's really too thin to continue using comfortably in my engine by the time things get hot again here in Arizona, so I'll prolly use it to do an Auto-RX (http://auto-rx.com/) engine-cleaning treatment, then switch back to the MDC+HM 10w40, or mebbe a heavier MaxLife. Auto-RX recommends using dino oil after their treatment, and they say Gp-III "synthetics" count as dino for their purposes.
(I was chatting to my mech recently and was informed that the Selenia synthetic which all 156s MUST run on if they aren't to blow up costs no less than $70 per litre 8O ) However, that said, if you do have a modern car that needs fully synthetic, I'm reliably told that Agip does it better than most.Yeah, that Selenia Racing 10w60 is apparently "the shiznit" for new, hi-tune Italian engines lately. I made an interesting discovery on BitOG (http://BobIsTheOilGuy.com/) for good full-synth oil -- apparently Mobil Delvac-1 "diesel" engine oil is better than even Mobil 1; both are pure PAO-based oils, but the Delvac-1 has much higher %age of esters, which are desirable oils in themselves but apparently also help with engine cleaning (why more of it appears in diesel oils, to help with soot) and clings to metallic surfaces much better/longer (why it's appearing in "Startup formula" oils). A UOA (used oil analysis) lab workup is the only real "test" of how well an oil is working for any particular engine, and IIRC, the UOAs on Delvac-1 have been very impressive, as good or better than Mobil 1.

[SubGothius]

Fully synth not good for the engine? Huh?
I can understand not using the 0W30 type of fully synth, but you can get 10W40 and 15W50 in full synth (and I think I have seen 20W60 as well). Isn't the factory reccomended oil 10W40? So what's the problem with using a fully synth with the same viscosity as the reccomended mineral? OK, so it's more expensive, but it should last better meaning you can have 6000 mile changes instead of 3000 mile ones.The true-synthetic PAO/Gp-IV/-V oils are just too thoroughly slippery, even in their heavier weights, so they tend to seep out from aged or newly-cleaned seals too easily (as DJ and Chris/Pope1 discovered with that Redline gear oil), and may do unpredictable things to those seals, especially in older engines that have become conditioned to running with dino oil (different story for a high-mileage engine that's run synthetic oil since it was new, then you could prolly stick with synthetic). As long as you're not overpaying for them, the Gp-III "synthetic" oils are actually quite nice for engines "raised on dino", as you get get dino oil with quality and durability near or equal to a full-synthetic (but having at least a fair shot of PAO dosing-up the mix a bit seems a good thing, too).

[duncan23]

Gp3 oil = hydrocracked mineral oil?
That's what the Fuchs one I mentioned is. I just don't think you can justify spending the 10 quid a litre on genuine ester/PAO oil for something that's not designed to run on it.
I don't see a problem with the milage though - I had a 135,000 mile Honda that ran fine (and never leaked) using 0W40 fully synth. I think it must just be due to seals being worn but held together with old deposits that the new synth oil cleans away. I imagine that if you have new/good condition seals then there's no issue with leaks?

[SubGothius]

Gp3 oil = hydrocracked mineral oil?Correct, Group-III hydrocracked dino oil can legally be called "100% synthetic" in the US, since it's not just a distilled/refined direct derivative of crude, but in Europe (I think by EU regulation) must be labelled as hydrocracked/HC mineral oil.
That's what the Fuchs one I mentioned is. I just don't think you can justify spending the 10 quid a litre on genuine ester/PAO oil for something that's not designed to run on it.Just because an engine was designed with only primitive oils in mind doesn't mean that engine can't tolerate more advanced oils! That said however, the Fuchs HC (Gp-III) oil you mention may be a good compromise between dino vs. true synthetic, as long as it's cheap and has a good additive pack -- Fuchs/Silkolene seem to have a good name, and their PAO-ester full-synthetics seem well regarded from a cursory search thru BitOG, so I'm inclined to think you're in good hands. Try it for an oil change interval and send a used sample away for analysis, see what the lab tells you about wear indicatiors.
I don't see a problem with the milage though - I had a 135,000 mile Honda that ran fine (and never leaked) using 0W40 fully synth. I think it must just be due to seals being worn but held together with old deposits that the new synth oil cleans away. I imagine that if you have new/good condition seals then there's no issue with leaks?Probably. Depends on the particular engine and seal design, and I think age may pose more of an issue than mileage. The full-syns often do seem to have an deposit-busting effect (prolly corresponding to ester content -- IIRC, that Auto-RX treatment is mostly selected esters), and those deposits may be "propping up" old seals or helping them do their jobs in some cases; in other cases, removing those deposits may actually stop a leak, if they've been interfering with a full seal (e.g. deposits "under" some seals' seats may build up and leak more than where/what the seal is supposed to be sealing against!). However, I think full-syns will more readily seep past already-marginal seals, whereas dino-based oils may not. I think dino may stopper gaps with its more random molecule sizes and propensity to oxidize and harden, but as I said, such deposits can wind up doing more harm than good in the longer run.

[duncan23]

Correct, Group-III hydrocracked dino oil can legally be called "100% synthetic" in the US, since it's not just a distilled/refined direct derivative of crude, but in Europe (I think by EU regulation) must be labelled as hydrocracked/HC mineral oil.

I think the regs are the same as the US, the one I was looking at was labeled "synthetic" despite being hydrocracked.


Just because an engine was designed with only primitive oils in mind doesn't mean that engine can't tolerate more advanced oils! That said however, the Fuchs HC (Gp-III) oil you mention may be a good compromise between dino vs. true synthetic, as long as it's cheap and has a good additive pack -- Fuchs/Silkolene seem to have a good name, and their PAO-ester full-synthetics seem well regarded from a cursory search thru BitOG, so I'm inclined to think you're in good hands. Try it for an oil change interval and send a used sample away for analysis, see what the lab tells you about wear indicatiors.

Lab? I don't know enough about oil to do that. I am gonna try it if I can find some...
It is nice to "speak" to someone who knows what they are talking about though.

[rossocorsa]

can't comment in relation to Betas but my 2000hf has ,in the past, proven to be very oil and filter sensitive. this is, I think, at least partially down to the boxer layout which leads to a greater risk of flow back of oil especially when hot. The original recommendation from lancia was 10w40 so the (then) 10w50 of mobil one ought to have been fine. Certainly oil consumption was not a problem, maybe better, but hot start up knocking was a problem that reverting to ordinary oil cured.
Conversely I use 0w40 mobil one in my delta hpe without any problem and when I had the unfortunate need to lift the head (balancer shaft tensioner bearing failure) the engine was showing no signs of wear.

[SubGothius]

I think the regs are the same as the US, the one I was looking at was labeled "synthetic" despite being hydrocracked.The distinction I meant being that the US doesn't require the HC "disclaimer", so it's harder to determine quite what's in that bottle labelled "synthetic" over here.
Lab? I don't know enough about oil to do that. I am gonna try it if I can find some...

It is nice to "speak" to someone who knows what they are talking about though.You'd just send it off to a lab that does used oil analysis for you for a fee, not sure who'd do it in the UK, but Google should turn something up for you; they may offer some interpretation, or at least call your attention to where results may be of concern. You can also post the lab results to the UOA forum topic on BitOG (http://BobIsTheOilGuy.com/), and the experts and afficionados there can help you with interpretation.

I can't claim to be an expert, but I can play one on the 'Net -- I'm just passing along what wisdom I've picked up over a few months lurking and posting a bit over at BitOG (http://BobIsTheOilGuy.com/). 8)

[SubGothius]

...I've been doing a lot of research about suitable oil filters, as the venerable Fram PH7 is often tough to find at retail and, as I've discovered, Fram's reputation among lube/filter cognoscenti is that, well, "It's not Scottish (http://snltranscripts.jt.org/91/91escottish.phtml)" 8O (audio link (http://sounds.wavcentral.com/televis/snl/scottish_crap.mp3) :lol: ). Last time, I'd tried a Purolator PureOne filter for its ultra-fine filtration-test results, but I wasn't completely comfortable feeling it might have been too resistant to oil flow. Since learning more on the subject, I've now changed to a Baldwin B2 (http://catalog.baldwinfilters.com/PartSpecification.asp?partnumber=B2) as of my latest oil change (altho' their BT5 (http://catalog.baldwinfilters.com/PartSpecification.asp?partnumber=BT5) is the more exact swap for a Fram PH7), and I can expound on the many reasons behind this decision later, but so far I'm quite satisfied with it (in theory and in practice ;) ) as an optimal choice among filters available in the USA.Since I hinted at my reasons for choosing the Baldwin oil filter, and since then having realized that I should mention a caveat for their B2 model, I thought I'd reply to myself, a la schizo... :lol:

First, that caveat about the tall B2 filter: my Zagato has an oil filter mount that points the domed end of the filter can horizontally towards the front of the car, nestled behind the A/C radiator and next to the coolant radiator. I've seen diagrams and photos of other Beta engines which have the filter pointed downward, or horizontally sideways towards the gearbox, so I can't vouch whether or not the B2 will fit in those versions; I just barely have enough working room to get it mounted on my own engine. According to Baldwin, the B2 is just over 5+1/4" (134mm) tall, whereas the BT5/PH7 spec is about 4" (100mm) tall, so judge your car's space allowances for yourself.

Why did I choose Baldwin Filters? Two reasons: Filter dissections show that they're built like tanks, with:[list] Heavy-gague steel endplates and cans you can't "oilcan" by hand; Steel endcaps encasing the pleated filtration media at each end of the inner cartridge; Spiral-seamed, corrugated steel center tube with extensive and unusual louver-style perforations for better flow and strength; Thick rubber anti-drainback valve with moulded-in reinforcing ribs; Coil spring holding the filter cartridge and ADBV against the endplate; Coil-sprung and rubber-gasketed bypass relief valve. Several empirical tests show they offer a good balance of flow vs. filtration: Flow is quite good, and better than others with comparable filtration; Filtration is also quite good, and better than others with comparable flow. Bonus reason: they're made in my home state of Nebraska, and I know and trust the work ethic there. 8) [/list:o]Suffice to say, I think this sure beats the oilcan-thin steel can, skimpy media with cardboard endcaps, single-sheet stamped leaf spring, plastic bypass-relief valve, and flimsy anti-drainback valve of any competing "orange can o'doom". 8O

Why did I choose the Baldwin B2 in particular instead of the (PH7-sized) BT5? It has the same threading and gasket dimensions and bypass relief valve pressure differential spec as the PH7/BT5; It's bigger, slightly narrower but taller, than the PH7/BT5 size:[list] More internal volume allows room for more filter media and storage of oil ready for startup time; More external surface area allows the filter to help cool oil slightly more efficiently. It has the bypass relief valve mounted at the endplate (open) end, right against the clean-oil outlet hole, rather than deep inside the can at the other end, so bypassed oil goes directly from inlet to outlet without washing over the soiled filter media along the way; The B2 exchanges for the Motorcraft FL1A filter spec'd for common Ford and Mopar V-8 engines, so it's likely to be in-stock (BTW, the FL1A is pretty decent too if you can't get a Baldwin); Bonus reason: rather than grey like the BT5, the B2 is Big and Red (apropos enough for a product of Nebraska -- go Huskers! :D ).[/list:o]Now, Baldwin Filter isn't exactly a household name you can find at your local Mal*Wart or auto-parts store; they primarily cater to the farm and fleet/trucking crowd. This explains their superior construction -- they're built to meet a demanding commercial-industrial-agricultural performace spec, rather than built to meet a competitive retail price point; it also explains where you can find them -- farm, fleet and trucking supply shops. Lookup your zipcode here (http://baldwinfilter.com/) for a Baldwin distributor near you, or you can order them online -- Associated Diesel (http://ADiesel.com/) offers reasonable pricing, discounts on modest-volume orders and online ordering, while WestFleet (http://WestFleet.com/) purportedly has better prices but only does email/fax/phone quotes/orders.

Hope you've found this all helpful and informative!

[sickchilly]

I nearly fell out of my chair laughing when you said it was hard to get the Fram PH7! Then I realized that we're on a very "worldly" board here! :D

PH7's are like the plauge here in the states. Any corner shop will have one.

But I don't use 'em. I use the WIX equivalent. Much better filter and just as large, if not larger. Still fairly easy to get.

That Austrian brand whose name escapes me right now is also very good and most "Euro-oriented" shops stock them or can get them here.

[SubGothius]

I nearly fell out of my chair laughing when you said it was hard to get the Fram PH7! Then I realized that we're on a very "worldly" board here! :D

PH7's are like the plauge here in the states. Any corner shop will have one.Actually, I am in the States, Arizona to be specific. I haven't seen the PH7 (nor any of its proper exact-swap equivalents from Purolator, STP, etc.) stocked in any stores around here (not that I'd want one now, having "learned better" about Fram's less-than-robust construction). As the PH7 size is apparently common in some farming and industrial vehicles (hence the "T" in Baldwin's BT5 standing for Tractor), I suspect regional distribution of the PH7 depends on local agricultural demand, mebbe industrial too -- not many farms or factories in Arizona, so we don't get market saturation of the PH7 and its equivalents.

Indeed, my recent online foray into oil filter research, thus discovering the BitOG forums (http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi) and thereby learning more about motor oils, got kicked off by a note in the local Pep Boys filter lookup catalog that said, for FIAT-Lancia DOHCs, "Use discontinued 10017 until stocks are depleted, then fallback to 14670" -- neither of which were the 20020 (PH7 exchange) ref'd for our engine on the Purolator Web site. Whaa...? What are the differences between all of these? How many different filters will really fit (gasket, thread, available mounting room, bypass relief valve PSID spec), and could other, unreferenced alternatives be better and perhaps more widely available than the PH16, 14670 and other approximate equivalents listed and available in the local stores? Thus piqued, I had to settle the matter to my satisfaction, and so I did, and so I had to share my conclusions. 8)
But I don't use 'em. I use the WIX equivalent. Much better filter and just as large, if not larger. Still fairly easy to get.The WIX (also rebranded as NAPA Gold) are rather good, well-regarded construction and test well; if I couldn't get Baldwins easily, I'd prolly get a WIX (in the Motorcraft FL1A-exchange size, natch, which size usually also places the bypass relief valve desirably at the open end, as per Ford engineers' spec ;) ).

The WIX/NAPA Gold air filter elements also test quite well (http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm), holding a lot of dirt and taking fairly long to plug up while maintaining good air flow (check out the WIX's purple line on the Dust Loading Curve graphic from the test!). Other air filters tested better in one regard or another but didn't have the overall balanced performance characteristics of the WIX (e.g., the Baldwin air filter trapped more dirt but was more restrictive and plugged up more linearly and quickly, the K&N was less restrictive but passed a LOT more dirt and plugged VERY quickly). Indeed, based on this test (and air filter discussions at BitOG), I'm thinking of removing the oiled-foam free-flow air filter I put on my carburetor (tho' I'll surely miss the raspy-growl induction music and the dome-top steel mesh lookin' good underhood!), and replacing it with an oversize, open-sided, circular filter casing (the biggest I can cram underhood, mebbe with a dropped-base if it'll fit -- those tiny, rectangular "free flow" air filters seem rather restrictive and fast-plugging with so little filter-media surface area!), holding a WIX paper filter element. Redline Weber makes an adapter to fit Holley-style filter plates onto Weber carbs (see baseplate component here (http://redlineweber.com/html/application_guide/DGV_Snorkle.htm)), so I'll prolly get that, mebbe if/when I upgrade to a gutsier carb (hopefully soon!). 8)

[SubGothius]

Hey, since I've been singing praise for Baldwin (no, I don't work for them, not getting any compensation for my efforts, merely impressed with their quality vs. "the other leading brands" ;) ), just thought I'd pass along the following promo I found on the BitOG forum for those of you considering Baldwins:
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