Timing belt panic over

[Pope1]

Still trying to make time to do the dreaded timing belt change. To all those who have done it, did you use anything to lock the cams or did you manage to perform the swap without doing that? Was planning to align everything and leave the car in gear so that the crank won't move but not sure what to do about the cams other than be careful.

Chris

[A1.6HPE]

Hello Chris,
I have only ever replaced the belt on a Beta 1600 and on the later engines that do not have the auxiliary drive shaft. Therefore never had the joy of trying to phase-up four pulleys. I made up locks for the camshaft pulleys. Basically they are L shaped brackets that bolt on using one of the camshaft housing bolts behind the pulley. Then a comb shaped bit bolts on to the L piece and locks in to the pulley teeth. This makes replacing the timing belt much easier. (the comb bit is quite thin so clamps the pulley at the edge and leaves plenty of space for the belt).

With the engines that have the distributor block mounted it was possible to lock the auxiliary shaft by securing the rotor arm, but that won't be possible with the VX. Sorry I can't suggest anything to lock the aux shaft.

It is never an easy job, very stressful due to the potential results!

Some people talk about slitting the existing belt with a knife, leaving it quite narrow and allowing the new belt to be slipped on alongside. That will not work if you are replacing the tensioning bearing (which you should do) so I personally doubt the practicality of doing that and indeed I have never spoken to anyone who has actually done the job that way.

The main thing to do is make diagrams/pictures of the marks before doing anything, then by trial and error you can the marks lined up again the same way.

The tension is correct when you can just twist the belt through 90 degrees on the long run down from the inlet cam pulley.


Good luck, Leo


Leo

[Pope1]

Thanks Leo. I've never been near a job like this before so I'm very concerned about making hash of it and I'd forgotten that I would also have to deal with the ancillary drive pulley. A Fiat twin cam owner promised to come and lend some assistance but he also reckons that he has done the job before without locking anything, hence, the reason for my question. Didn't like the sound of that so I was tempted to try it without his assistance. Will have another look at Haynes and give it some thought.

BTW I do have a new tensioner bearing and plan to change that too. Thanks for the reminder.

[Pope1]

Do you ever have those moments when you feel strongly you must do something but you have no idea why? After reading Leo's comments, I took the timing belt cover off tonight to get a better look inside and this is what I found 8O . Don't know whether I'll get the job done this week-end or not but I certainly won't be driving the car again until I do!

Chris
http://home.caribsurf.com/chrysalis/images/belt.jpg

[Hamish]

Nasty looking belt :!:

I well remember how ironic it was that on my way to a pals garage to change a timing belt the damn thing broke 300 yards from his front door :cry: Oh how I laughed about that one :x :x

My advice is tipex - or any other bright paint - to mark up the engine before de-belting. Jack the car up - rest on axle stands ofcourse :wink: - and turn it over by hand (taking the plugs out helps :!: ) until the timing marks are spot on or as near as makes no difference, so long as you can clearly line them up later.
Take your tipex (or paint) and mark liberably at all the appropriate points.
If you're worried about the phasing on the blower, a mark won't do any harm here either, as you'll need to take the blower belt and alternator belts off as well before the main timing belt :arrow: if my memory serves me correctly :?:
So long as you mark it all up and disturb as little as possible it will go swimmingly - honest guv' 8)

Note: - If you haven't already done it, and you're in there anyway, take off the waterpump and have a good look at it. Now's as good a time as any to change it if you have to. Worth flushing the system at the same time...... Or am I making too much work out of this :!: :!: :oops:

[Pope1]

Just realised today that the blower belt has a similar chunk missing too!

Yes tippex is a must. Most have been done already but a refresher coat will be the order of the day.

You are correct about the belts. Thye all have to come off but that's OK because I want to change them all anyway and try to swap the blower pulley at the same time. Water pump - touchy subject. I think that came up while you were on holiday. Let's just say that it's been changed already (and a whole load of gunge flushed out) but the pump has to be done again because I didn't fit a VX pump the first time. Have the correct one waiting for me in the UK. Many thanks Andrew.

My main concern about the belt change is that unless I can lock everything in position, I have visions of wheels moving as I'm struggling to get the belt on and tensioned in the narrow confines of the Beta engine bay. Doesn't look like it will happen this week-end. Spent the afternoon lying under the Golf so I think that's enough for one week-end.

[rossocorsa]

don't worry too much about pulleys moving its not too difficult, so long as you have everything marked up it'll not be a problem

[Hamish]

Oh dear :oops: sorry to hear that there's been waterpump 'issues' - amazing how much crap can come out of an engines coolant system.....

As Alan says, so long as everything is well marked up you'll be fine, honest :P .
If the truth is told, the easiest way to do a complete belt service on the VX (or pretty much any Beta for that matter :!: ) is to drop the whole front subframe out :arrow: but it's a tricky job for the amateur mechanic without proper facilities :roll: Does make life a whole lot easier though..... no scraped knuckles, rounded bolts/nuts etc etc.
Ah :!: The joys of Lancia ownership 8O

[Will]

Personally, I wouldn't try to keep everthing in the exact same place- it requires more effort, and isn't really necessary.
The best thing to do IMO is to identify the cam timing marks on either the front pointer or the housing themselves. These should align with the holes in the stock cam wheels with the motor at TDC. If they don't, you are on the wrong phase, rotate the crank 360 degrees and they should line up.
Once you are there, put the car in gear and the brake on so the crank won't move.
The hardest part of the operation, depending on which motor you have, may be sneaking the belt around the big nose pulley and onto the totthed crank pulley, as dome of the front seal carrier shrouds really get it the way. Try not to move the aux shaft, because it can be tough to feel or see the hole in it. If you are off a tooth or two here it' won't matter, but by all means don't get off by 90 degrees!
If your belt is directional, make sure the arrows point clockwise.
Put it on the crank pulley, wrap around the aux shaft, snake the excess belt up and around the cam pulleys, and fit to the tensioner.
Turn the motor over a few times with the starter to get the belt to center in its sweet spot before locking down the tensioner.
By the second time you do it, you'll be spending more time getting to the belt, than the actual belt change takes. It's an easy task, just scary to the uninitiate.

-Will

[Pope1]

Many thanks for your advice and words of encouragement guys.

Hamish, good idea about dropping the subframe. I have a trolley that I made for that purpose. Maybe I'll do it when I get back and swap the subframe at the same time :wink: hint, hint!

Chris

[Hamish]

Chris,
Drop me an email as soon as you like :wink:
Did you see the VX waterpump on eBay at present :?:

[andybeta]

go for an uprated Monte water pump.

Andybeta

[Pope1]

Yep, that's what I've got from Andrew. It has a 16 mm impellor instead of the standard 10 mm.

[Pope1]

Started work but the alignment is not what I expected.

Here's the alignment of the cams (red circles). OK I think.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/pope171/images/cams.jpg

The ancillary marker is where I expected it to be but not the crank pulley. There are two marks on the crank and a pointer to the left. In the yellow circle you can see the pointer aligned with the first mark. There is a second mark inside the red circle. I always thought that the one in the red circle was TDC and the yellow one was a timing mark but looking at it now the yellow one appears to be about 20 degrees away from the red one rather than 10. Can anyone explain which is which for me please? To confuse matters even more, you can also see a little white mark on the edge of the supercharger drive pulley to the right of the red circle. Goodness knows what that one is???

Puzzled.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/pope171/images/wheels.jpg

[A1.6HPE]

Hello Chris,
This is typically what happens the marks never line up as per "the book". I just checked my car (A1.6 HPE) and the crank pulley lines up with the second of the two notches against the pointer - ie as your small red circle not the yellow one. I think you did say that your car has the IE inlet cam so maybe the timing was adjusted appropriately.
If the engine was running well I suggest that you stick with the alignment as you found it.

Of course it may be that my alignement is wrong but my car runs fine. More input is required here, but safe bet is to stick with it.

btw I still strongly reccomend locking the camshaft pulleys - they rotate under the pressure from the valve springs so are difficult to set by trial and error technique.

Leo

[A1.6HPE]

Hello Chris,
This is typically what happens the marks never line up as per "the book". I just checked my car (A1.6 HPE) and the crank pulley lines up with the second of the two notches against the pointer - ie as your small red circle not the yellow one. I think you did say that your car has the IE inlet cam so maybe the timing was adjusted appropriately.
If the engine was running well I suggest that you stick with the alignment as you found it.

Of course it may be that my alignement is wrong but my car runs fine. More input is required here, but safe bet is to stick with it.

btw I still strongly reccomend locking the camshaft pulleys - they rotate under the pressure from the valve springs so are difficult to set by trial and error technique.

Leo

[Pope1]

I figured I would just proceed and then line everything up afterwards as it is now.

I cleaned up the wheel a little and found a line about half way between the two points. Very confusing. Suspect that I have been timing the car incorrectly in the past when using the timing light. Hmmmm....

Next issue. How does the tensioner work exactly? Haven't a clue what I am doing with it and think I need to seek some professional assistance, something that is not easy in this neck of the woods. Can't see how to slacken off the tension without doing some damage to the car, myself or probably both. :evil:

Leo, thanks for that tip about the cams moving. Was going to try without locking but I'm re-considering.

Not a good day out!

Chris

[Hamish]

Don't want to openly disagree with Leo - who has many years more experience than I when it comes to Lancia engines - but you do not have to lock the cam wheels..... you're doing fine as it is :!: Sure, it's better if you do - but it's not essential.

Tensioner - take the old one off, put the new one on. Easy. Adjust the tensioner so it takes up the slack - it's obvious how this works, honest.
Tension on the belt should be sufficient to keep things 'tight' but as Leo has said before you should just be able to twist the belt to 90 degrees and no more.
Easy.
Honestly.
No really - it is.

[Pope1]

Hamish,

Do you mean undo the nut for the tensioner and just slide it forward on the shaft away from the engine? Is that it? Nothing more? Haynes talks about levering it towards the water pump and for the life of me I cannot figure out (a) what they mean by that and; (b) how that translates to what I said above, if what I said above is correct!

:oops:
Chris

[Hamish]

That's essentially it. If memory serves there's a spring that forms the 'backbone' of the system, but you need to strip what's there down to get the new bearing on anyway - asuming you go through the 'thing' that I do of oiling anything that looks like it might squeak.
Will try and post more later - work to do.....

[Pope1]

Cheers Hamish. It was the spring thing that I couldn't figure out and I didn't want to undo the wrong thing and have it go pop. I talked to my Fiat expert at lunch time so I'm going to have another go this evening now I have a better understanding of what's there.

Chris

[A1.6HPE]

Hello Chris,
Some things we have not mentioned up to now...
Are you going to try to remove the crank pulley? I have never managed that on a Beta (easier on the later reversed-head engines) so I end up manipulating the belt behind the pulley to start off with.
The power steering belt has to come off - never a pleasant experience - put on a new one if not recent.
The alternator belt has to come off - not as bad as pas belt but worth renewing 'cos you have to take off the pas belt to get to it.
The tensioner is held in place by one nut on a stud so easy to replace although I did once have to remove the water pump pulley.
The tensioner bearing is an odd arrangement where the pinch bolt goes through a large diameter hole so therefore allows the movement. It fits onto a backing plate which is spring loaded to push it against the belt. In use the tensioner is locked in place by the nut so the spring is not doing anything. The spring is just there to "help" when changing the belt. So when first fitting the belt it is neccessary to force the tensioner towards the water pump and then lock it there. Once the belt is threaded around all the pulleys the tensioner is released to let the spring move it against the belt. Due to the eccentric nature of the movement of the tensioner it is neccessary to rotate the engine to let it settle then lock it and check the tension and redo until happy. Allowing the spring to "help" is usually about right.
If the marks do not line up as you want then slacken the tensioner but leave it slack (ie pushed by the spring) and try to slip the belt off the relevant pulley and rotate the pulley then refit the belt.

WARNINGS: :!:
DO NOT ROTATE ANYTHING WHEN THE BELT IS OFF - only small movement is safe - the slightest piston to valve contact can bend the valve.
DO NOT ROTATE THE ENGINE UNLESS THE MARKS ARE VERY CLOSE TO WHERE THEY SHOULD BE

All this sounds worse than it really is!!

Buona fortuna, Leo

[Pope1]

Leo, your advice is helping me to maintain a level of patience and sanity.

Slackened off the relevant bits and pieces so that the plate could move, got the belt off and eventually got the new one on with everything lined up. Keeping alignment was ok, getting the belt to slip over the inlet cam was tricky but all of a sudden everything semed to fit. Have very carefully turned the engine over by hand a few times and I'd say that the belt is too loose. I can slide it sideways on the inlet cam for example.

So, if I've understood you correctly Leo I need to have the 17mm bearing nut loose as well as the 13 mm stud right next to that. What about the 13 mm stud that the spring fits around? Presumably that should be left alone???

With sufficient engine turning (by hand), I take it that the spring will push the bearing out and the belt will settle, yes?

After that I can tighten everything up.

Tensioner bearing
I'd planned to change this at the same time. However, it appears to be in the prime of its life. It spins very freely, does not make a sound and doesn't have any movement that it's not supposed to have. I believe it's done 10,000-12,000 miles and I'm seriously tempted to leave it alone but if you guys tell me otherwise I will replace it, though not at this stage. Hamish has persuaded me that I need to take the whole sub-frame out to tackle some other bits and pieces so I will deal with it then, if I have to. Right now I want to get the car back together and drive it before I go overseas rather than leave it sitting for a while longer.

Chris

[Pope1]

Well the deed is done and it started without making any horrible noises. Thanks to you all for putting me right yet again. I'll take it out for a drive tomorrow to check all is well. I'm sure I'll be fretting at the thought of damaging Mr Croft's nice valves every time I drive the car for the next thousand miles though.

Should I take it easy for a few hundred miles and then check the belt tension again before letting rip?

[A1.6HPE]

Hello Chris and congratulations.
The first time is always the worst!
I guess that you answered your own question with the 13mm nuts!
You should have switched the bearing while you were there but if it was nice and silent then it sounds OK.
Inevitably the first few miles are a bit stressful, but you will soon be hitting peak revs and forgetting about rubber bands - or will you??? I have to admit that the timing belt is always at the back of my mind as I whizz along. When A1.6HPE was 7 years old it had only covered 20K miles but still had the original belt. I asked the Lancia dealer if it should be replaced on a time lapsed basis. They said that since I had asked the question their professional advice had to be that it should be replaced, even though they had never heard of a time limit on the belts. Car has now covered 50K miles and is about to get its third belt (and bearing).

Enjoy, Leo

[Pope1]

Yes, impatient as always, I had to go back and figure out what the story was with the nuts. Found that if I keep turning the engine the belt gets tighter and then slacker again so I hope I caught it in one of its tighter positions.

Still haven't driven it as it pouring with rain this evening and my car is a fair weather beast at the moment. I imagine I'll be concerned for a little while though.

I considered the bearing all right but I could not imagine another one being better than the existing one so I just decided to let sleeping dogs lie.

Thanks again.

Chris