Sub-frame measurements

[Old Man Wattsy]

I’m readying a rusty S2 Sport for some significant body repairs. Of particular concern is the drivers side front valance which is no longer directly connected to skeleton around the front subframe support. See photo of the outside skin – don’t be fooled as I was, there is very little sound metal behind the paint!!! :mad:
I’ll be welding up a frame to be bolted to subframe connection points to keep the front dimensionally correct as the valance is removed and a new front formed and welded on. I’d also feel more confident by having the substitute frame ready prior to lifting off the body.
Is there a diagram giving the height and horizontal off sets of the two uppermost bolts above four lower bolting faces.
Hope someone can help.
Cheers, Mick

[ncundy]

All the dimensions for the body shell and subframe are in the Dati Tecnici book. This is part of the suit of documents available from:

http://www.viva-lancia.com/fulvia/qanda/documentation/fulvia-cd.php

IMO this is the single most important document you can have if you are going to undertake anything other than servicing and the odd repair. It should be read in conjunction with the workshop manual but it makes sense on it's own so could be considered to be generally stand alone.

[1,6 HF]

I'll strongly second Neil's comments. If you're going to be doing structural repairs involving the subframe, you must get a copy of the DT; it'll have all the dimensions you're looking for, and then some.

[philm]

Looking at the damage, I think the biggest problem you will have is find a reference point to start from. I have replaced the headlamp mounting areas and repaired a front valance on one of my Sports, I have also replaced a rear valance and I think you will experience similar problems on the front as I did on the rear. Once the valance is removed, and you will be able to see where Zagato welded it in, there is nothing to stop the front wings springing out and then it becommes that much harder to get the correct curvature back. I like the idea of a frame to provide pickup points and references but I would also advise repairing as much as possible before cutting the valance off. I would certainly look at repairing the bonnet and grill mount areas followed by new headlamp surrounds/mountings before cutting the valance away. Depending on availabilty I would look at finding good second hand front end, it may sound extreme but they are about and it may be more efficient to do that plus you are keeping that high quality geniune 60's/70's Italian steel complete............. As for the attachments or skeleton as you describe, it is just a pair of simple brackets off the front bodyshell legs, you could put these on once the valance has been replaced.

[Old Man Wattsy]

Phil, thanks for the advice.
It made sense about repairing it in such a way as to retain the overall geometry as much as possible.
Also, I'm going to look at a damaged Sport body after Easter to look at the front and rear valances (yes, the other end of mine has major damage as well) but I don't hold a lot of hope.

Neil, can you comment on what I have.
The car came with the Concise Repair Manual and the Fuvia Technical Data (in 3 languages). The Technical Data has a lot of 2D engineering drawings, part nos, specs and torques settings and includes the dimensions of the subframe but no mention of the additional frame containing the front springs etc. I've also downloaded the first half of the Spare Parts Catalogue (in 4 languages) which has good exploded viwes but no dimensions.
So, is the 'Dati Tecnici book' different again?

Thanks for the assistance.

[1,6 HF]

Data Tecnici is simply Italian for Technical Data Guide. As you note, it has the subframe dimensions, but not the subframe towers and 'bridge'. Those will only be covered in the parts catalogue, as they're standard parts, of fixed dimension and geometry.

So it sounds as though you're right to be looking for another car for new valences, or at least reference dimensions.

[philm]

If you need to hold the shell square than you should find the subframe mounting dimensions perfectly adequate to build up a simple 4 point, braced frame to pick up on the rear and front subframe mounts. If you are really worried I would also suggest you weld a brace into each door aperture (once the doors are off:D) As for checking the spring pickups, as Ed suggests these are controlled by the substantial alloy towers and the mountings on the subframe. I would be surprised if you have any issues there, have you checked the rear subframe mounts and is there any cracking of the front wings midspan of the wheel arch?

When I replaced the sills, subframe mounting points and A post on my Sport I braced the door apertures, set the car level and did one side at a time and did not experience any issues.

[Old Man Wattsy]

Ed and Phil, thanks for comments, much appreciated.

I don’t have any cracks on the front wheel arches however I was thinking (maybe I’m being too cautious) of picking up the attachment points at the top of the alloy towers to hold the front as best as reasonable.

I also have to weld new metal into the front end of the both sills and the rear drivers side subframe support, one rear mount at the boot, the floors, rear valance and boot floor, plus the bonnet and boot gutters. I'll post a few more pictures over the coming weeks as I'd appeciated further advice on how to approach some of the repairs. My work has only began.

Ed, am I correct in assuming my Fulvia Technical Data (also titled the Donnees Techniques and Technische Daten to round out the three languages) is the same as Technical Data Guide or DT previous mentioned? If so, is there anything else should I buy off the CDs? :red face:

Thanks

Mick

[ncundy]

As said by Ed and Phil, you have the DT book. I think the dimensions for the top pick up points are in the book (there is a bodyshell drawing from memory that gives the dimension of the pickup points on the body, I'll have a check when I get home).

As Phil says if you brace the doors you shouldn't run into any trouble. We did this on my brothers coupe.

Check the inner wings in the engine bay for cracks as well (between the rear of the arch and the bulkhead - there's a thread on here somewhere about them) and also the diaginal weld on the inner wing where the brake pipes attach -I'm assuming the Sports are the same as the Coupe in this regard.

Neil

[ncundy]

The dimensions for the pick-up points at the top of the aluminium towers are given in DT 15/0010 after the wiring diagrams at the back of the DT - if I'm understanding your question that should give you what you want.

[Old Man Wattsy]

Neil,
I feel a bit like a nob. :red face:
I'm somewhat embarassed that I have never looked past the wiring diagrams.
Its all there.
However, at least I know that I've got the main source book which sort of make up for the embarrassment.
Much appreciated.
Mick

[1,6 HF]

Mick,
Don't give it a thought; things are always more obvious after you see them...

[ncundy]

Shouldn't worry about it Mick, done it plenty of times myself !