noise in transaxle

[Ken H]

I have a Thema 8.32 transaxle in my Scorpion (with a Thema 16V turbo engine) and it makes a clicking sound in first gear under acceleration. All the other gears are silent. I'm thinking a chipped or missing tooth in the first gear set - ? I bought the transaxle used, condition unknown. I've been taking it easy in first - no smokey burnouts, at least until I get this figured out! :)

So far it hasn't gotten worse or better. I assume I need to tear into it and probably replace a gear or two. Should I be driving it as is? If something breaks am I going to lose the whole transaxle or just first gear? This is new territory for me.

- Ken

[Wallace]

Click or a whine ?? Missing tooth would give a whine I would think - proportional to engine rpm ! Is it dependant on engine revs ?? Definetly coming from the box ???

[Ken H]

It's a "tick-tick-tick" proportional to engine/vehicle speed. Faster than say a bad CV joint but not a whine like you'd expect if all the teeth were worn. I have yet to tear into a transaxle - hence my ignorance, and am just trying to guess what the problem is. I suppose I'll have to open it up, but would like to delay it as long as possible. I'm having too much fun driving this thing after 3 long years off the road to get excited about putting it up on blocks for a few weeks or more!!

- Ken

[Wallace]

I have put new bearings in a VX box. Not difficult - but you do need a puller. The input bearing was shot - you should have heard the noise ! But the give away was the oil looking like silver paint .. . how does yours look ?

[Tom McGaffigan]

Ken,
Lets see I have taken apart 2 Scorpion transaxles, 2 Beta VX gearboxes and reassembled 2 hybred gearboxes in the last 2.5 months. Gimme a ride in that beast and I will take a listen. Might be a bad ball bearing, or a chipped tooth. Only on deceleration huh? :twisted:
Tom McGaffigan

[Tom McGaffigan]

Ken,
I misread your post, only on acceleration? I would also jack up the car, start her up and snoop around the transaxle with an automotive type stethoscope. You should be able to get an idea of where the noise is coming from. Might even get lucky and find it is the speedo drive or something easy. Or you might get unlucky and drop it off the jack stands and drive it right through your garage, be careful.
Tom McGaffigan :twisted:

[Wallace]

I don't want to raise your hopes - but if it was something internal, I think it would tick under load or not. Can't think of a problem that would go away off load. Shagged bearings made a noise all the time !!

It's not the engine/transmission moving forward on acceleration and something contacting the bodywork somewhere ??

[A1.6HPE]

Hello Ken,
Are you sure the noise is not always there? I believe that the 8.32 diff is an LSD type and that they can make a clicking noise. Should not be too loud though. Having said that my Thema Turbo has an LSD and I cannot hear any clicking.
But mainly are you sure that it is not an inner CV joint?

Leo

[Ken H]

I did some more testing and here's what I found:

- under acceleration, the ticking is noticable but not loud
- under deceleration, the ticking noise gets loud and I can feel it in the cable shifter
- it only occurs ONLY in 1st gear
- the frequency is much faster than a clicking CV joint (i.e. many "ticks" per wheel rotation)
- the tranny oil on the dipstick is clear, but I haven't drained it to see what residue if any has collected in the bottom.

My best guess at this point is a broken or damaged gear tooth in the 1st gear set. It's not getting worse so I'm still driving it, just taking it easy in 1st.

- Ken

[Ken H]

Hello Ken,
Are you sure the noise is not always there? I believe that the 8.32 diff is an LSD type and that they can make a clicking noise. Should not be too loud though. Having said that my Thema Turbo has an LSD and I cannot hear any clicking.
But mainly are you sure that it is not an inner CV joint?

Leo

Hi Leo,

My diff is an open type. I did procure an LSD for it but have not installed it yet. I don't know the history of my transaxle since I'm a few owners removed from original. It does have the 8.32 part number and also an extra oil feed visible on the end of the casting that was only on that particular model. However, the 8.32 transaxle fits only the Ferrari engine whereas mine has been modified to fit the 4 cyl twin cam. Someone swapped out a casting, and who knows what else.

I'm curious about your Thema Turbo LSD. Was that a factory option, or aftermarket? Is it a friction plate or worm gear (Torsen) style?

- Ken

[A1.6HPE]

Hello Ken,
The LSD is standard on the Turbo and V6 engined "S3" Themas. My car is a 1993 model, commonly known as an "LS Turbo". The differential is a traditional friction type. The drive to the offside wheel is through a visco-drive unit so that allows a bit of slippage so as to tame the snatching caused by the LSD. The LSD is standard - the marketing people tended to focus on the visco-drive as that sounds more sexy. The drag on the differential is very noticeable when you have one wheel jacked up and try to spin it.
The casing on your transmission sounds like one from a Delta integrale. If the extra feed connection is at the rear that would connect via a pipe to fill the centre diff on the Delta.

Leo

[EVO92]

There is a picture of the Fiat Coupe viscodrive LSD in my photo section which is effectively the same as all the others in the Fiat/Lancia group...

I have 3 different Visco boxes at the moment Thema V6, Thema S3 Turbo 16V and a Kappa V6, i should have one running on the road next summer, i was impressed in the Kappa so should work very well in a light car...

Regards,
Martin

[Ken H]

The casing on your transmission sounds like one from a Delta integrale. If the extra feed connection is at the rear that would connect via a pipe to fill the centre diff on the Delta.

Leo

Leo,

No, nothing that dramatically different visually between the standard and the 8.32 Thema castings - just a small (1/2" diameter?) ridge running across the end of the transaxle to provide an extra oil feed. If I had the Delta transaxle, I'd probably be trying to figure out how to connect drive up to the front wheels! Don't laugh, I've been asked about such a project. The first step of course being to figure out how to flip the driveshaft exit from the rear to the front of the transaxle.

- Ken

[Ken H]

Think this could be it?

http://www.lancisti.net/forum/modules.php?set_albumName=albun69&id=102_0210_IMG&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

[hmmm, picture (first gear with 2 missing teeth) isn't showing up in preview mode]

Thursday it started to make a bit of noise in all gears (not just 1st) so today I removed the transaxle. No loose teeth were found lying in the bottom, so the P.O. must have known about this problem. :x

Anyone know where I can get a new 1st gear set? 12:42 ratio.

- Ken

[A1.6HPE]

Oh Dear!!
http://www.lancisti.net/forum/modules.php?set_albumName=albun69&id=102_0210_IMG&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

Was it not a "one careful owner"?
Try the Thema-Dedra Consortium forum for gears -

http://www.lancia-tdc.co.uk/

In future I must be more careful doing those racing changes down to first!

Leo

[EVO92]

Shouldn't be a problem getting new ones from Lancia..

If i'm right with the part number: 7610867 its the same as on the Nuova Delta, Fiat Coupe and Croma V6. List price is about 150Euro.

Regards,
Martin

[Ken H]

Thanks Martin. Ideally I'd replace the mating gear too, since it's got some slight wear from mixing it up with its evil partner. If I'm not mistaken it's part of the main shaft assembly. Any #s for that? I hate to think what the price will be. 8O

I think I figured out why initially the noise was only a problem in 1st gear, then the last time I drove it, the noise started becoming apparent in all gears. The 1st gear set is always turning, and initially there was enough left of the broken teeth to allow the gears to turn OK with no load. As the broken teeth wore, after a while they weren't able to mesh properly even without any load.

I'm glad I stopped driving it when I did. This path might have led to a broken transaxle had the teeth jammed.

- Ken

[EVO92]

Sorry gears are certainly not my strong point, i only know the one mentioned is 1st as there are 5 gears clearly marked 1,2,3,4,5......

Do you have a parts program CD/DVD? maybe the numbers are stamped in the gears.....

Regards,
Martin

[Ken H]

On my parts CD the main shaft # is 7640030 which includes the integral small 12 tooth first gear.

However, I may not need to order new gears. I've found another 8.32 transaxle in Arizona, and the owner is willing to sell as long as I return the bell housing, the one part he needs. If it all works out, I'll consider myself very lucky indeed! I doubt there are too many of these transaxles in the States.

- Ken

[Ken H]

My transaxle is now back together, hope to get the car back on the road by the weekend and also to its first track day on Monday. A friend and I drove to Phoenix last weekend (1550 miles in 2 days!) to pick up another 8.32 transaxle as a source of spare parts to fix mine. It's 2 years older, an '87 vs. my '89 but only 60K km so I'm using as many parts as possible from that unit. There are a lot of differences between the 2 units - slightly different gear ratios, different final drive ratio, different bearings. Curious. Could be production improvements, could be just because it's Italian. In any case none of these variations are mentioned in the factory manual.

- Ken