Fulvia 1,6 HF - engine reconditioning

[lanciafulviahf1.6]

Gents, seeking your advice....

I have been contemplating some further works to the engine for quite some time and would like to get your views / costs for parts.

The engine is generally original HF, to my knowledge it has limited reconditioning / machining done over the years with the exception Lambda Motors (Australia) pulling the engine out in 2008 to install of twin 45mm Dell'orto carburettors with Group 4 inlet, at the same time they fitted new set of big ends, free flow ceramic coated exhaust header (rest of the exhaust was done years ago and is very good), new water pump, many many other items we done at the same time but nothing done to the cylinders, pistons, cams, valves, tappets.

After the work was done in 2008 we put the car on the dyno and it was around 92bhp at the wheels, with some pinging at the top end. Whereas a Fulvia Zagato race car on dyno was was running 108bhp same day.

Car is now pinging alot more and also tappets have going progressive noisier, haven't checked the compression but would suggest this is down since the dyno test.

Realistically im looking to recondition the engine to very fast road condition, suitable for some track days.

Thinking at this stage im going to be up for reconditioning the head including cylinders, valve seats etc. either new or reconditioning of i) pistons ii) cams iii) valves iv) tappets etc....

Seeking your advice in the best and most cost effective way to go about this;

1. should I be buying new? have heard you can get a good abarth cam from Italy not sure where though and if I really need it. should I be buying new pistons, valves?

2. reconditioning - head can be done in australia, should I get the pistons done at the same time? and just buy a new 'hot' cam

3. best place to buy new or reconditioned - omicron, vere, spitline, cavalito. any others?

Any advice would be appreciated

thanking you all in advance

[ncundy]

HI

First i would see if you can find someone who has built this kind of spec engine in the past; I haven't but I have done 1300 and 1600 engines to standard spec.


1. should I be buying new?
yes..unless you are looking for main castings I would not buy anything second hand.
have heard you can get a good abarth cam from Italy not sure where though and if I really need it. should I be buying new pistons, valves?
there are a number of places that will do good cams, but your choice of cam will to a large extent dictate what else you need to upgrade - so your decision needs to be made in the round. If you want to increase the power I think you will have to go to new pistons with a higher cr. Again there are many suppliers such as these (http://www.pistonispeciali.it/set_epoca_4.htm).

2. reconditioning - head can be done in australia, should I get the pistons done at the same time? and just buy a new 'hot' cam
I would be amazed given the motorsport and engineering if you cannot get it all done in Australia. Yes get the pistons done at the same time, also re-bore the cylinders.
Two tips:
the cylinders are not perpendicular to the deck face, this is unusual. Make sure whoever does the re-bore understands that and is able to set up or make machined jig plates.

the crank is nitrided and if you decide to regrind it find someone with experience of nitrided cranks, and check the availability of undersize bearings before you start.

3. best place to buy new or reconditioned - omicron, vere, spitline, cavalito. any others?
See above for advice on new and re-conditioned. The places above are the usual suspects but there will be numerous cam suppliers with profiles from which you can buy direct, for instance piper cams (http://www.pipercams.co.uk/pipercams/www/index.php). I would strongly suggest you speak mainly to Omicron and Vere Lancia from the above list as they are tuners, the others are part suppliers.

One other piece of advice: there are quite few Auz based people who have restored, tuned and raced Fulvias. Jeremy Browne has owned several ex-works cars and has rallyed extensively, and there is at least one country man of yours on here who has. Are you in the Australian Lancia Club? These are the guys to find.

Cheers
Neil

[1,6 HF]

Al,

It's probably a good idea to start with compression tests and leakdown tests on the cylinders; that will tell you a lot about the condition of the rings and valves. After that, it may make sense to pull the head, which will answer any remaining questions about the condition of the pistons and valves/seats. You'll probably find that these investigations will answer many of your questions and begin to order your priorities.

In general, pistons, valves and cams aren't tough to find (with the caveat that some oversize pistons may be elusive). I'm with Neil--only new pistons or valves, and preferably new over regound cams. And these can be had from any number of suppliers. In addition to the ones you name, Omicron, Vere Lancia, Cavalitto, and PitLine, you might also look check RicambiRossoCorsa. I haven't personally dealt with Vere Lancia (though I probably will in the near future), but I have with all those others, and it's hard to go wrong with any of them. And I'd also concur with Neil's assessment that Omicron and Vere are the tuners, as well as suppliers, while the others are just suppliers.

Incidentally, I'm not sure Abarth ever made Fulvia cams, but I think you'll find good cams by any number of outfits you've never heard of. In any case, you can't just drop in hot cams and expect great results without also addressing pistons, head, and breathing (though your 45 DHLAs will probably take care of the breathing as long as they have the right venturis and jetting). It's all connected, which is why I'd start with the general diagnostics.

[lanciafulviahf1.6]

Neil and Ed,

thanks so much for the solid advice

agree with diagnostics but I think we have already past this step and am resigned to moving onto the rebuild.

so overall consensus is that I should really look to put in new pistons, valves, cams vs reconditioning existing pistons with new valves and cams.

I suppose im just looking at ways to be economical and cut down cost where I can. Without holding you to it, what sort of money do you think I should be looking to spend on the 1) cams 2) pistons 3) valves?

Plenty of gents "down under" who can assist including Graham O'Connor from Lambda Motors, Lou and Harry Brittian, Tony K. I have not met Jeremy Browne but will make the effort to touch base with him, as you suggest below - he must have a wealth of knowledge and experience.

Im active in NSW Lancia Club and also a member of the VIC / QLD clubs

My father has Lambda and a B20 - he has just completed a rebuild of his B20 engine, so he is likely to be helping me soon with this project.

attached is a picture of the existing set up following the install of the carbies

[ncundy]

Reconditioning existing pistons will only be an option if you have very good bores - otherwise you should consider a re-bore and new pistons. I'm not quite sure what you mean by re-conditioning pistons? They are either OK or not. Other than clean them and have them barrelled to stress relieve them there's nothing you can do. If the ring lands are good, parallel and with no wear, there is no significant wear on the thrust face, pin journals are nice and tight, and they are dimensionally correct your only avenue for improvement is new rings (and you will need to re-hone the bores).

A friend had new pistons made for a high spec V8 and he paid about £120 each (with pins and rings), so I would imagine a new set for a Fulvia would be c.£600. Cams will be c.£500 new. For valves I would look for a modern valve with the same basic head dimensions and then get them machined to size. From memory BMW valves are a good start (about £10 each). Then you want new valve guides and seals. Then get the seats and valves cut (maybe a three angle seat?), say £300. At the same time I would re-face the flywheel clutch face.

Add in other standard activities (chemical cleaning, facing the head, new gaskets etc) and re-jetting the carbs - I doubt you will see a bill for less than £2000 (£1500 if no new pistons) - and that's if you are doing it yourself.

Neil

[lanciafulviahf1.6]

Neil,

thanks again. sound advice, really appreciate it.

[1,6 HF]

Again (and utterly unsurprisingly), I think Neil has it right. I'd only add that you might be able to save a some money by buying a set of new Fulvia 1600 valves (rather then recut modent BMW ones); they are available, and even show up from time to time on eBay for considerably less than £10 apiece.

BTW, just to satisfy my morbid curiosity, did you really chop the top off an S1 1,6 HF?

[lanciafulviahf1.6]

Ed, thanks for the note on the valves

In relation to the "Spider", yes the car lost its roof some 25years ago with the work being done by the previous owner.

I have considered putting a roof back on the car, but I do like the car as a convertible for the moment - it does lend itself continuing the theme into an F&M Special replica but have not made my mind up on that as yet

[Dave Simons]

Hi Al,
I think we met at a track day last year at Marulan - I was driving the blue Ferrari and my son was driving a silver Beta coupe. I've known your dad for over 30 years!!

You've been given good advice - a couple of observations: If your engine has standard cams (same as 1.3S), 92 hp ATW isn't too bad. the best I've seen with standard cams is 95-96 HP ATW. Using synthetic gearbox oil adds a couple of HP and, if you are comparing your engine to Lou's Zagato, don't forget that his is a highly developed car - with a straight cut gearbox - that reduces lost power quite a bit. I'd also add that it is very easy to compare apples & oranges with chassis dynos - getting meaningful data is a bit of an art.

A rebore and new pistons is a good start - Parrys in Sydney have the correct alignment plates to bore 1.3 & 1.6 Fulvia blocks. Some of the best Fulvia pistons in the world are made in Melbourne, though there are several other sources, Venolia in the US, for example. With custom pistons you can bump the compression ratio a bit. Lou has had success with whoever is doing his heads. be worth talking to him, make a booking & get your teeth checked at the same time (He's a dentist). Omicron have all the gaskets & bearings - a competition head gasket is recommended. The best road/race cams I've used were made by Kent Camshafts to Peter Gerrish's specification - I have them in mine & see no need to change. As an afterthought - there is one inviolate rule in motorsport, doesn't matter what kind: 'Speed cost money - how fast can you afford to go?'. it is very easy to spend 8-10k AUD on a Fulvia 1.6 engine for competition use.

If the spider conversion on your car was done by an outfit in Camperdown, I almost certainly wrote the original Engineers Report to allow registration - funny coincidence maybe.

Cheers,
Dave Simons

[ecoangel]

Totally agree with Dave Simons. 92BHP AT THE WHEELS is very good for a 1.6HF with Twin 45s.

Have you thought of changing your gearbox before spending 1000s unnecessarily on the engine?

My engine was rebuilt by a certain Dutch tuner - it came back with wrong cam caps and a bent camshaft. RR test revealed estimated 101bhp at FLYWHEEL ! That was after 1000s of euros spent.

Engine rebuilt by Peter Gerrish with good Kent cams and excellent G&S valves plus super Cavilitto HC pistons but despite lots of $ spent "only" added about 15bhp. However, drivability went through the roof! Far better power and torque curve after 6hrs on RR with northern UK specialist who used to own a Fanalone himself when they were new!

Rolling Roads are not all the same and some operators will thrash your car to within an inch of it's life. You need to find someone who knows how to set up Carbs (quite rare in UK these days). How much torque and how flat was the torque curve?

[lanciafulviahf1.6]

Hi Al,
I think we met at a track day last year at Marulan - I was driving the blue Ferrari and my son was driving a silver Beta coupe. I've known your dad for over 30 years!!

You've been given good advice - a couple of observations: If your engine has standard cams (same as 1.3S), 92 hp ATW isn't too bad. the best I've seen with standard cams is 95-96 HP ATW. Using synthetic gearbox oil adds a couple of HP and, if you are comparing your engine to Lou's Zagato, don't forget that his is a highly developed car - with a straight cut gearbox - that reduces lost power quite a bit. I'd also add that it is very easy to compare apples & oranges with chassis dynos - getting meaningful data is a bit of an art.

A rebore and new pistons is a good start - Parrys in Sydney have the correct alignment plates to bore 1.3 & 1.6 Fulvia blocks. Some of the best Fulvia pistons in the world are made in Melbourne, though there are several other sources, Venolia in the US, for example. With custom pistons you can bump the compression ratio a bit. Lou has had success with whoever is doing his heads. be worth talking to him, make a booking & get your teeth checked at the same time (He's a dentist). Omicron have all the gaskets & bearings - a competition head gasket is recommended. The best road/race cams I've used were made by Kent Camshafts to Peter Gerrish's specification - I have them in mine & see no need to change. As an afterthought - there is one inviolate rule in motorsport, doesn't matter what kind: 'Speed cost money - how fast can you afford to go?'. it is very easy to spend 8-10k AUD on a Fulvia 1.6 engine for competition use.

If the spider conversion on your car was done by an outfit in Camperdown, I almost certainly wrote the original Engineers Report to allow registration - funny coincidence maybe.

Cheers,
Dave Simons

Dave, thanks for the reply.

Yes we did meet briefly but shame we didnt talk more on the day, how are you doing? Would be interested to get an update on your Fulvia? Has Brian Hawke done any more work on the car? Also recall you son and his Beta, very nice car.

All solid advice on my car - alot of which I didnt know particularily relating to Parry's, so I will certainly be getting them to do the head once I have bought the parts. Dad recently got his B20 head worked on by them.

Completely agree with you on Lou's car, being very well spec'd, however it does act as a good barometer for the performance of my car, I now recall it was doing 88bhp at the wheels not 92bhp so this is quite good based on the age and limited work done over the years but could be far better with some work.

I think you are right on speaking to Lou, he was great on helping me on the dyno and supplying me with the correct jetting for my carbies. I will arrange to see him over the next coming weeks - also need my teeth seeing to and my dentist here in Sydney charges a bomb!

Pistons - You mentioned the piston crowd in Melbourne - do you have a name?

Cams - I have touched based with Kent Cams for a quote based on a Peter Garrish spec, so will see what they come back with.

Im pretty sure it was the Camperdown place that did the conversion - I believe they used to do a lot of VW bugs, im not aware of another "spider" in Australia so have to assume it is the same car.

Would be great if I could also grab your contact number, Im sure I might have some queries?

Cheers
Alistair

[alcooker]

Hi Alistair,

I wondered if your situation has progressed with the engine reconditioning? Have Kent Cams come back to you with a price yet, have you plumped for any pistons? I'm particularly interested in this thread because I fear it could be something I need to have done in the not too distant future. Rather than shell out a huge final bill, I've thought about buying a piston a month then a pair of cams over a couple of months, valves etc. I assume connecting rods are reusable with new bearings. Maybe in a couple of years get it rebored and assembled. My engine may just need new rings and honing, but it seems a bit daft just doing that and then having to have the engine apart again a little while later to rebore etc. My engine has done about 95,000 miles.

i have been doing a fair bit of reading into engine overhauling, but I'm unsure about the following.
1. Is the 540 cylinder block cast iron or aluminium with steel inserts, if it has inserts, how do these stay in?

2. To buy new pistons, do you have to match the numbers stamped on the top of the new piston to the ones on the original cylinder block or does reboring negate this?

3. If the new pistons are about 81.910mm and you rebore, do the new rings take up the excess size or would you need oversize pistons?
Is the idea of using oversize pistons mainly for increasing capacity or does a rebore just warrant larger pistons?

4. What's the deal with conical headed pistons like the ones Vere Lancia has? Is it so the compression is much tighter?

5. From what I have found online from you Guy's suggestions in this thread, there seems to be a big difference in prices of pistons. Considering I'm happy enough with the torque and speed of the original 1600 set up, is it really necessary to be paying £200 a piston.

Al,
Definitely keep us posted on your progress and what you're having to pay out (if you don't mind).

cheers
Alex

[ncundy]

1. Is the 540 cylinder block cast iron or aluminium with steel inserts, if it has inserts, how do these stay in?
Cast iron

2. To buy new pistons, do you have to match the numbers stamped on the top of the new piston to the ones on the original cylinder block or does reboring negate this?
It negates this

3. If the new pistons are about 81.910mm and you rebore, do the new rings take up the excess size or would you need oversize pistons? You will need over size pistons
Is the idea of using oversize pistons mainly for increasing capacity or does a rebore just warrant larger pistons? If you make the hole bigger it needs a bigger piston to fill it.


4. What's the deal with conical headed pistons like the ones Vere Lancia has? Is it so the compression is much tighter? It gives a higher compression ratio

5. From what I have found online from you Guy's suggestions in this thread, there seems to be a big difference in prices of pistons. Considering I'm happy enough with the torque and speed of the original 1600 set up, is it really necessary to be paying £200 a piston. I don't think there is a lot of variation in Fulvia piston prices. The rule is get from a reputable manufacturer.


I would have everything done at once, doing it piece meal is not practical- but you'll not know exactly what you need to do until it the engine is stripped. If you measure the bores with a bore gauge you will see it needs a re-bore (probably to take out excessive wear at TDC), pistons are matched to bore diameter. You will also need new gudgen pins with new pistons. At the same time you will want to get your head pressure tested and probably new valves (if your engine has done 100,000 miles the guides and seats will be worn). The crank should be ok (it's nitrided). If you don't have the where-with-all yourself get a professional to do it.

For an idea this is my engine rebuild:

http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=78.75

[alcooker]

Thanks Neil,

Good to see the engine internal photos. Rebuilding an engine is certainly not something I'd be doing myself, however I am pretty good at taking things apart which could save some labour charges, but then I'd have to have the car towed to the garage to get the engine put back in which could cost more than garage labour. Catch 22.

It sounds like it's probably arse about face to stock up on the pistons without knowing the extent of the rebore.

It's a shame pistons don't get seen, I just love the look of CNC'd aluminium.

[1,6 HF]

..It sounds like it's probably arse about face to stock up on the pistons without knowing the extent of the rebore.

Not "probably". Unless you're clairvoyant, you'll need to wait to buy pistons until you know about the rebore.

I'm in the same position at the moment with my alternate engine; I won't know what main bearings I need until the crankcase is line bored, and I won't know what pistons I need until the block is evaluated.

[ncundy]

Al,
Taking an engine to bits doesn't really take much time, may be a a couple of days tops. You do however need some special tools - an air gun to take the crank pully bolt off for instance. There are some "care points" to ensure that you don't wreck something in the process. So it might not save as much money as you think. Also the "taking to bits" part of a rebuild will provide the re-builder with many clues as to what has been going on and what needs doing (in addition to the "just measure it" activities).

That said - I wouldn't discourage anyone with a bit of enthusiasum , who is prepared to learn from having a go. They weren't designed by aliens or made out of unobtanium!

Obviously you may get to the point where, like Ed, you have to farm specific jobs out - you're not going to do a line bore on your bench.

A basic rebuild of a 1600 engine (with no rebore) will cost <£1,000 if you do it yourself. Thats all new bearings, rings, re-honing, chemical cleaning, all new oil seals, head test, valve re-grind, water pump and timing chain. With new pistons and a re-bore it will be about double. That assumes you have the correct tools to do the job including some decent measuring equipment.

At £40/hr doing the stripping yourself will probably save not much more than £800, but see my point about what an experienced rebuilder will get from the stripping exercise.

[alcooker]

Thanks Guys,

Good advice as usual, at least from this I now know what a leakdown test and head pressure test are even if i can't have some lovely pistons. i may well have a leakdown test performed, should've done it while I was replacing the cam cover!

Has anyone ever watched the Boxwrench basic engine building DVD? I've been watching clips on youtube and it seems to be a great insight into how things work, especially for a novice like me, might order a copy for a romantic Saturday night in.:D

I have the workshop manual instructions and some Peter Gerrish instructions on how to remove and dismantle an engine, it sounds so easy, obviously it's not and it's a good point that an experienced mechanic will maybe see things whilst dismantling .

[spyder]

Hi Al

If your engine does need a rebuild you might be best to leave to an expert.

As you know secondhand 1600 blocks are ultra rare & very pricey. If you happen to leave a bolt loose of overtightened inside it could be goodbye to your unit & the parting of up to &#163;8,000 for another one!

Bit different to something like a Ford Escort where many thousands were manufactured

[ncundy]

Al,
If you have some Peter Gerrish instructions would you mind putting them up - or if not would it be possible to send a private copy. Nothing better than learning from "his masters voice" ;D
Cheers
Neil

[alcooker]

If the Euro went back to what it was a few years ago, we could get a rebuilt engine for 4 grand.


I'm away at the minute, but I've brought one of my folders with me for a bit of reading- among other articles, it's got Peter's method for removing an engine, Ian lloyd's method for gearbox removal, Andrea Nistri's brake master cylinder overhaul from 1985 and Tim Brindley's how to remove and service the heater. I assume they wouldn't mind me scanning them, but if anyone knows them , perhaps you could get permission as the articles are quite old and they might have changed their methods

. If I can get to use a scannner I will, otherwise when I have a spare 1/2 hour I'll just type Peter's instructions, post them and then DJ could maybe copy them to the downloads section.