Horrible scrapey noise

[alcooker]

Hi All,

I just gave the HF a warm through and noticed a pretty nasty scraping noise when giving it some throttle, I noticed it last weekend aswell but it went away after a couple of minutes, this time I had the car running for about 10 minutes and it didn't go away. I was on my own so i couldn't get under the car whilst pumping the throttle, but it sounds like it's coming from somewhere below the coil. The noise continues momentarily after releasing the throttle. Hopefully it's just because it's very cold.

If anyone is good with strange noises, could you don some headphones and have a look at this video of the noise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lak24Aqo3O0

Thanks
Alex

[ncundy]

"somewhere below the coil" is the flywheel/clutch/starter motor area.

I would check the simple stuff first like is the starter disengaging fully (they are adjustable), or is your clutch leaver adjusted too high (clutch release bearing touching the clutch).

There are two small inspection hatches you could remove to have a look with a torch (one on top of the bell housing and one underneath), but they are small.

If you have no oil leaks that you can see I doubt it is a bearing but something is touching something it shouldn't and ultimately that may mean splitting the gearbox / engine to have a look.

Neil

[alcooker]

Thanks Neil,
Unfortunately it's started snowing now, but next w'kend I'll get my wife to rev a bit while I use a piece of tubing to see if I can pinpoint the noise. Last time it happened I went back in the car and the choke light was still on, I hadn't quite pushed the lever all the way back, when i did the noise disappeared, could've been a coincidence though.
I have absolutely no oil leaks so I'll be taking it to the pro's if it's not the starter or clutch. Typical it happened just after I'd just repaired the wiper motor on my Alfa, elated that i'd just saved £150+ on a new motor and labour I start the HF and pound signs start flashing. Bar Steward!

[1,6 HF]

Alex,
First thing would be to determine which side of the flywheel/clutch interface has the problem. Does it matter if the clutch is disengaged? In fact, does the clutch fully disengage? If the problem occurs with the clutch fully disengaged, then the starter would be a likely culprit, per Neil's comments. If the problem only occurs with the clutch fully engaged, then I'd suspect the clutch or the bearing or the gearbox internals. And if the clutch doesn't seem to fully disengage, then it's likely the pressure plate or bearing.

[alcooker]

Well I've just realised the benefits of not breathing exhaust fumes in, still, marginally better than getting rain on the HF.
Curiosity got the better of me, I had to check the clutch and yes the noise goes when it's fully engaged. as far as I can tell the clutch is fully disengaging, but I wouldn't really know what I was looking/feeling for.

[1,6 HF]

Alex,
If the noise goes away when the clutch is fully engaged, with the gearbox in neutral, then the problem is most likely the release bearing.

[ncundy]

I think you need a convention for what "disengaged" and "engaged" is because I can hear the noise on the video and I would say the clutch is engaged and the car is in neutral ? If that is the state then there shouldn't be any load on the bearing. You usually look for bearing symptoms by checking for a rumbling as you depress the clutch and (as you say Ed) the noise going as the clutch is released.

[1,6 HF]

Here's the way I've been using the terms:
Clutch pedal depressed = clutch disengaged.
Clutch pedal released = clutch engaged.

I've been interpreting Alex's posts as saying that the noise occurs with the clutch pedal depressed. If that's true, I suspect the release bearing.

If the noise occurs with the gearbox in neutral and the clutch pedal released, then it's unlikely to be the release bearing; I'd suspect the clutch or pressure plate.

[alcooker]

Ah, i thought when you pressed the clutch in that meant engaging it, therefore allowing one to change gear. So to clarify, the noise goes when I push the clutch pedal in. Have been lookng on viva lancia, seems if it is the release bearing I may be capable of doing the job myself, just need to look at the manual to see where it is. Sorry for any confusion.

I'm feeling slightly daft about the engage/disengage mix up, glad we got it clarified. After getting my head around your replies it seems you're both in agreement that it's unlikely to be the release bearing. Without holding anyone to it, do you think it's okay to drive or am I likely to grind something away that may not need replacing? I'd rather take it to the pro's but they're a fair way away.

[1,6 HF]

If you get the noise when gearbox is neutral, with the clutch engaged (clutch pedal released), then it can be the clutch itself, the pressure plate (probably less likely), or the gearbox. I'd take to straight to the pros, weather permitting. But first I'd check the level of oil in the gearbox. and make sure that it's not something that simple.

[alcooker]

Yes looks like a trip to the pro. when you said gearbox it remnded me of a whirring noise (kind of like the noise reverse gear can make when reversing quickly, although much quieter) that I started to get at high speed in fifth gear, it sometimes occurs when coming off the throttle in lower gears too. I assumed the gearbox was on it's way out, maybe there's a link between the noises. Not really driving it at present so no rush to get it fixed.
Is there an inspection stalk for checking gearbox oil? It's not something I've done before.

[fulviafiend]

Is there an inspection stalk for checking gearbox oil? It's not something I've done before.

There is a sort of gearbox dipstick (black plastic) tucked away behind the engine on top of the gearbox to the right hand side – suggest using a torch, you can also top up the gearbox oil using the same point (via use of a funnel and very careful pouring!).

FF

[alcooker]

Cheers Mark, I'm laughing at the fact I forgot the term 'dipstick'...,..

[1,6 HF]

Alex,

The gearbox dipstick is on the right side as you stand in front and look into the engine compartment; in 'true orientation', it's on the left hand side of the gearbox. If you're very lucky, it's just dry (and it hasn't been running dry for long). We won't discuss the unlucky possibilities...

[alcooker]

I meant to check my bill from when the car was recommissioned back in May, but I had an early night last night. Pretty sure I remember seeing that the gearbox oil had been sorted.
Here's hoping the dell'ortos get a good price!

[alcooker]

Anybody know which type of oil for 1600 gearbox:eek:

Found the dipstick, thanks for directions. I'm not sure whether the end of the dipstick is missing a metal shaft (like the engine dipstick)that may have snapped off, but there's no oil on the plastic bit so either something has snapped off ( hopefully not sitting in the gearbox) or I aint got no oil in there. I haven't got anything on my bill about gearbox oil, but I'm pretty sure it would've been checked.
I've been amazed that the car doesn't leak any oil, maybe there isn't any to leak.

[ncundy]

It's missing about an inch at the bottom. Question is where has it gone, and what is your oil level. I would suggest that if someone on here with an S2 can measure theirs and tell you what the max measurement is you could at least check that the oil is OK.

Checking if the missing bit is in the gearbox is a gearbox out and bell housing off job I'm afraid.

Edited to add that the ridge that is still visible on the shaped end of the dip stick is the max mark.

[marlboro]

Try draining the gearbox first you could be lucky and the missing bit of dipstick might fall out! I had same problem ( not on a fulvia) , I drained the box flushed it . and then refilled it with gear oil and changed it again at next service

[spyder]

If you get stuck I do have a spare 5 speed gearbox although without checking I am not sure if it is a 1300 or 1600!

[1,6 HF]

There's no physical difference in the gearbox case for a S2 1.3 or 1.6, so any dipstick would work. But it sounds as though you have a bit of plastic bouncing around inside a gearbox that may be running dry (or at least low).

[alcooker]

Thanks Spyder, hopefully it won't come to that, but if it does i could well be on the blower.
Ed, I'm off to see my donor car this weekend, gearbox is 1300, but i'll be having the dipstick if it's the same. I've got 5mm of plastic after the max mark on present dipstick, none of it's showing any oil, but before i drain off i'm going to try Mark's tip of topping up the box through the inspection aperture, run it a while then drain off and flush it.

[alcooker]

Can anyone tell me where the filler is for the gearbox? I've got the car on stands ready to drain the box, but I'm not sure if trying to get 2.7l of oil through the dipstick aperture is going to be too successful. I was just going to try topping up but I figure I might just aswell refresh the oil if there's actually any in there. I don't want to be dropping the box out either. One of the sump bolts doesn't appear to have a rubber washer, should they?

Thanks
alex

[ncundy]

You fill it through the dipstick hole. Both the sump plugs should have compression washers, usually copper. If you're one missing take the plug down to your local motor factors or halfords, they are a standard size.

Make sure your sump key fits the plug tightly and clean out the head of the sump plug before attempting to undo. They are not the most difficult things to round off. When removed check the magnet on top for shrapnel.

Neil

[alcooker]

Awesome Neil,
on my way to halfords, 11mm sump plug according to my measures

[alcooker]

Neil or anyone,
is it worth putting an engne flush through the box before I drain? I can only keep the car in neutral as it's on stands and it's raining so not driving it. Is there going to be enough mving in the box to make it worthwhile?
No 11mm hex so bought a selection, hope 12 will do it.
Thanks
alex

[alcooker]

Hadn't work my measuring guage properly, 14mm hex it is

[alcooker]

Okay, engine brought up to temperature and gearbox drained down with car level. Just under 900ml came out over an hour, I'm sure there's a bit left in there but probably not 1800ml. They probably mean nothing but here's a couple of shots of the oil, photos are true colour, browny grey and pretty grainy.

The sump plug magnets had some fine shards of metal stuck to them, didn't look anything serious.
I could only get Halfords Extreme pressure, semi synthetic, 75/90 oil, so I plan on running it for a few miles, draining off then getting the better stuff in.


Try draining the gearbox first you could be lucky and the missing bit of dipstick might fall out! I had same problem ( not on a fulvia) , I drained the box flushed it . and then refilled it with gear oil and changed it again at next service

Marly,
Did you add the engine flush to 2.7 ltrs of oil or did you add 2.7 ltr inc flush to the box, I'm thinking I might do the same.


Strangely when running the engine today, before removing the oil, there was no sign of the 'horrible scrapey noise'. I still intend to get it checked out though.


On another subject, while I was under the car I noticed why I think my gearstick rattles when doing 60+mph, shouldn't there be a pair of bushes in the linkage knuckle? see photo

[ncundy]

Oil looks a bit grim. Changing and then having a look after a couple of hundred miles would be sensible.

Yes there should be a bush in there. Mine was shredded as well. I don't think they are the same on your box as mine but I'm making up a bronze one tomorrow. A quick solution is to get a bit of poly bar from one of the suspension suppliers and turn one up on a lathe - pretty easy to do. Don't know if Omicron sell them?

Cheers
Neil

[NeilS]

I have measured my S2 dipstick it is 17.3 cm from the handle part that is in the gearbox, the min and max marks are 10mm apart, the max line is 30mm from the tip of the dipstick. See attached photo.

[1,6 HF]

Alex,

If you only got 900ml out of the box, it's pretty clear that low oil level (with dirty oil) was contributing to the noise--maybe even the primary cause. It's possible that, after you flush with the synthetic, you'll be OK simply by refilling with proper gear oil to the correct level.

[alcooker]

Thanks for the pic of the dipstick, mine's cut off 5mm after the max level. I've just filled up and added a flush, wasting £25 worth of new oil, but so be it.
The car sounds completely different just ticking over and much more rounded whilst revving, I can't believe it I can actually hear the engine and exhaust without a metallic sound.
Taking the Alfa to Jamie Porter on Monday for it's service and MOT, hopefully he'll have some 'proper' oil.

Oh, and easy to fill up with a hose and funnel.


Oh yeah, well chuffed!

[1,6 HF]

Sounds like you'll (you'll pardon the expression) scrape by with just a flush and a proper refill.

[marlboro]

Did you refill it after flush? If so I'd run it with that oil untill next service, I run mine on 75/90 synthetic( im sure others will disagree!),I would not be worried about having halfords oil in it, its a lot better than what came out of it!!!!!!
Did any of the dipstick come out?

[alcooker]

No I've left the sump plugs out for the night, need some new gaskets for them, bought a 6 quid selection pack from Halfords and none of them are bloody 3/4". I can't find anywhere local selling Agip Rotra or Vs Synth, so I'm hoping Jamie Porter might have some I can buy on Monday. I'll run that for a couple of hundred miles and see how it goes. Didn't see the end of the dipstick, so hopefully it's either been ground down or was snapped when away from the car.
Pulling some bits off the old 1300 tomorrow, hopefully a throttle linkage, cam cover so I can get it painted yellow and a.......dipstick.

p.s. Brian, I'll get you the chassis number of my Brother's Zagato while I'm over there.

[ncundy]

Pictures of the bronze bush for my selector remote.

[alcooker]

Neil,

It looks like your S1 stick and fork is different to the S2. I haven't taken my stick out of the fork so I'm not sure whether a bush should be pressed into the stick( as on yours, by the look of it). What I did do was try to slip a fibre washer in between, but it wouldn't go, too tight. I eventually cut a piece of plastic packaging into a washer shape which is probably 1/4 mm thick, slipped it in then put the bolt back through. Reading the workshop manual tonight, it says not to tighten the bolt too tight otherwise it becomes difficult to get into reverse gear.
Be nice not to have to hold the gearstick when travelling at the speed limit.

p.s. try getting a fibre or copper gasket for the gearbox sump bolt, been to 4 different motor factor shops, no one has one large enough. Just found this http://www.workshopsupplies.co.uk/contents/en-uk/d887_sump_plug_washers.html
And how the hell did you get your stick and fork looking brand new?

[ncundy]

Surprised that you can't get the washers? I must admit that I said Halfords (bum steer, sorry) as I assumed they would have them. Have you tried a plumbing centre as 3/4" (22mm) is a standard fitting?

I've have the advantage (or disadvantage!) of having my car in bits (for the last 5 years). I'm going through the gearbox at the moment so all the bits are coming off, degreased in Gunk and then the secret weapon - I've got an industrial 25 litre ultrasonic tank, everything goes in there.

[1,6 HF]

Neil,

It looks like your S1 stick and fork is different to the S2. ...

Alex,

Neil has a so-called 'piggyback' gearbox, only used on the Fanalone (and not even all of those). It's got a rather different gear lever mechanism that the later, long-case 5-speeds. In either case (no pun intended), there's a rubber boot that goes over the bushing and fork assembly; it's often missing (was on mine), but it helps keep grease in and crud out.

[ncundy]

A quick refresher having looked at my brothers gearbox and the TAV shows some significant differences in the two.

The S1 'box has a bush but it seems the S2 'box doesn't, instead having a spring (item 19 - in .pdf). That said if it is sloppy I suspect a bush would be a good idea.

[alcooker]

Yes, the Pdf doesn't seem to show any spacer or washer inside the S2 joint, my quick fix has definitely tightened the play up, but until I hit 60+mph i won't be able to see whether the rattle has gone. As i said there isn't much room to get a couple of bushes in the joint, i found it difficult enough to slide a very thin piece of toy packaging in there. I'm missing the rubber boot aswell.

Unfortunately i had to take the HF to the supermarket tonight, (the Alfa had a bad day, it needed a new rad, new MAF, new discs and pads, new wipers, MOT and service), but at least i discovered there's barely any noise from the gearbox coming inside the cockpit now there's some oil in it..