OMG!!! 1979 Beta Auto on ebay

[Charley]

I can't believe this one ! A 1979 Beta Coupe automatic for sale on ebay,and the bids are up over $5000 !!!! Somebody obviously has more money than brains ! Even if this car was PERFECT, I wouldn't buy any Beta from the bastard year 1979....ESPECIALLY with an automatic transmission !
I wouldn't even pay $1000 for that thing ! :eek:
Can anyone explain this one to me,or am I going nuts ??

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1979-Lancia-Beta_W0QQitemZ220529177348QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Ca rs_Trucks?hash=item3358903304#ht_500wt_924

[1,6 HF]

No explanation here. A 1979 with slushbox and a lousy repaint, from an eBay seller with 0 feedback, at a dealership that only deals in muscle cars? I couldn't run away fast enough.

On the positive side, with the automatic, the "only 36,000 miles" is probably correct...

[dnaj]

I own a 1980 2L Beta Sedan with an auto trans. It was purchased in the mid 80s from Borg Warner division of GM, who used the Beta to design their own FWD auto trans. I still have the paperwork from BW.

The guys at BW modified the subframe so that they could install their own design transmission without pulling the motor. My sedan has under 25K miles, which were mostly on a dyno. The whole car has been restored to nearly new. Its a bit of history. GM's accounting department sold the Beta without their custom transmission, and we put the original transmission back in.

The Beta auto trans has a strict maintenance schedule which requires a fluid change every 20K miles. There was some special fluid to be used, but I think we found a approved substitute. The external similarities between the Beta Sedan and the Chevy Citation are striking. I often wonder about the internal similarities, if any.

Tho not a great transmission, I believe many of the problems were due to lack of proper maintenance. My point is two fold. First, proper maintenance. Second, anything can be fixed.

[HF Stinger]

I had been watching this one, I think I even bid in the first day or so just to keep it in my sights. When I saw the price jumping I did kinda chuckle as there is no way anyone who knows these cars would spend that.

On the other side of the coin, my intentions would have been to convert it into a manual anyway - have others done this??

[1,6 HF]

dnaj,
I have no doubt you're right that a lot of the problems with the Beta auto 'box stem from improper maintenance. But the fact remains that it's a mediocre design with strict maintenance requirements--not an ideal combination. In any case, you've got a unique piece of Lancia history; good luck with it.

Sean,
You can swap a manual for an auto 'box, but why bother? Much easier and much cheaper to just start with a manual Coupé in the first place. And, as you correctly point out, why would anyone bother with this one at anything remotely close to this price?

[dnaj]

> But the fact remains that it's a mediocre design with strict maintenance requirements-

Agreed, but so are Betas in the first place;-)

[dnaj]

> You can swap a manual for an auto 'box, but why bother?

I must admit, I have a complete manual parts car/drivetrain, but I loathe to use it, and thankfully have not needed to. History indeed!

The ebay car is interesting, but overpriced at this juncture.

Here is my advice. Never buy an auto lancia unless the transmission works.

Price of any working automatic Lancia should include a deduction for the price of a cheap parts car, which in my case was $300. Cheap enough!

If the auto-trans holds up, you're golden! If not, you've considered the problem in advance.

Tho, I've had zero problems with my automatic, I know the reputation. I can always off it and the parts car to one more adventurous then me. That day has not come.

[1,6 HF]

> But the fact remains that it's a mediocre design with strict maintenance requirements-

Agreed, but so are Betas in the first place;-)

Betas a mediocre design? I owned three Coupés, and I never thought so--quite the opposite. The only mediocre aspect to any of them was the standard US-spec engine on the '75 (and even that could be cured relatively easily) and the rustproofing, which wasn't any worse than most contemporaries, but was mediocre at best.

But you'll get no argument from me on "Never buy an auto lancia unless the transmission works." If the slushbox doesn't work, you've just got a non-mechanical parts car and a boat anchor...

[SubGothius]

Betas a mediocre design? I owned three Coupés, and I never thought so--quite the opposite. The only mediocre aspect to any of them was the standard US-spec engine on the '75 (and even that could be cured relatively easily) and the rustproofing, which wasn't any worse than most contemporaries, but was mediocre at best.

Indeed, the only major shortcomings I can think of are in the areas of rustproofing/mild steel and US-spec emissions strangulation/complexity on the carb'd models. By late in the '81 model year, they had galvanized sheetmetal and FI and thus should count as properly sorted out. The overall engineering is quite elegantly brilliant in quite a few ways, in particular regarding the rear suspension and the jointed right-side driveshaft that eliminates the torque steer normally endemic to a transverse powertrain. For such a compact car, the ride/handling balance is nothing short of stellar: light and lively, sharp and responsive, precise and tenacioius yet still comfortably smooth and refined -- "supple" as I believe David B. here quite aptly put it. 8)

[ckeen74]

Is there any US-market Beta coupe that would normally sell above $5K?

A friend was interested in this car a month or so ago, and I suggested he stay away. So it *is* for sale, not sure if the seller here is the same one.

It'll be interesting to see if this comes up again on eBay because the buyer failed to come through once he finds this thread.

[Charley]

Is there any US-market Beta coupe that would normally sell above $5K?

A friend was interested in this car a month or so ago, and I suggested he stay away. So it *is* for sale, not sure if the seller here is the same one.

It'll be interesting to see if this comes up again on eBay because the buyer failed to come through once he finds this thread.

I have been offered more than $5000 for my Coupe a few times,but I turned it down.It wasn't about money,I love the car and knew I would never find another like it. However,talk to me when I'm in the right mood someday and make an offer, and who knows. ;)

[1,6 HF]

Tough question. Beta Coupés don't "normally sell above $5k", as a generalization. But I think there may well be some individual cars that are worth that.

Nothing would suggest that the eBay car was worth the $5100 paid; that one seems more a case of 0 feedback buyer meets 0 feedbacl seller than anything to do with the value of the car itself.

[grego]

I was also pretty shocked by the selling price of this Beta. Of course, my current Beta perspective comes from my rusty future parts car. But the GM story is interesting. I was approached in a parking lot here in my town by a guy who said he used to work for GM, and was on the team that dissected Betas for design cues for their compact (were they called X-body?) cars in the 80's. I listened with interest, but had never heard this story before. I thought it was interesting, but was unsure about its validity.
Now I want to find that guy and pick his brain! I guess I'll have to use the car more to draw him out again.

G

[1,6 HF]

It seemed pretty obvious at the time that GM had developed the X-body cars (eg. Chevy Citation) based on the Beta sedan--and had learned all the wrong lessons...

[SubGothius]

It seemed pretty obvious at the time that GM had developed the X-body cars (eg. Chevy Citation) based on the Beta sedan--and had learned all the wrong lessons...
...like their "innovation" of rubber-mounting the drivetrain subframe in particular. Nothing like constantly-shifting suspension and halfshaft geometry to make for "driving excitement"! :eek:

[1,6 HF]

...like their "innovation" of rubber-mounting the drivetrain subframe in particular. Nothing like constantly-shifting suspension and halfshaft geometry to make for "driving excitement"! :eek:

Yet another example of GM's relentless pursuit of mediocrity; borrow a good engineering solution, dumb it down for cost, and kick it out the door without adequate development.

[Rem1100]

Our family had a 1977 Beta Sedan from new. I remember my father relaying a story he heard from our Lancia dealer that GM used Beta Sedans as test mules for the X-body Chevy Citation series.

Wonder if GM retained any documentation of these Beta Sedans, and the testing/modification they underwent?

[davidb]

"w/o adequate development" like when they rushed the V-6
models into production to replace the anemic 4 bangers. The
engine had to be disconnected & moved foward to get to the
firewall side spark plugs. Not a cheap tune-up for what was
intended to be an inexpensive, practical car.

[1,6 HF]

"w/o adequate development" like when they rushed the V-6 models into production to replace the anemic 4 bangers. The
engine had to be disconnected & moved foward to get to the
firewall side spark plugs. Not a cheap tune-up for what was
intended to be an inexpensive, practical car.

That would be as good an example as any...

[Georgemia]

[QUOTE=Charley;24448]I can't believe this one ! A 1979 Beta Coupe automatic for sale on ebay,and the bids are up over $5000 !!!! Somebody obviously has more money than brains ! Even if this car was PERFECT, I wouldn't buy any Beta from the bastard year 1979....ESPECIALLY with an automatic transmission !
I wouldn't even pay $1000 for that thing ! :eek:
Can anyone explain this one to me,or am I going nuts ??

I always like it when I high price is paid for a car like mine. Why do you refer to '79 as a "bastard" year?

Very happy with my '79 Beta!

[Charley]

[QUOTE=Charley;24448]I can't believe this one ! A 1979 Beta Coupe automatic for sale on ebay,and the bids are up over $5000 !!!! Somebody obviously has more money than brains ! Even if this car was PERFECT, I wouldn't buy any Beta from the bastard year 1979....ESPECIALLY with an automatic transmission !
I wouldn't even pay $1000 for that thing ! :eek:
Can anyone explain this one to me,or am I going nuts ??

I always like it when I high price is paid for a car like mine. Why do you refer to '79 as a "bastard" year?

Very happy with my '79 Beta!

Buy a new thermostat for it and then let me know how you make out with that.;)

[1,6 HF]

I always like it when I high price is paid for a car like mine. Why do you refer to '79 as a "bastard" year?

Very happy with my '79 Beta!

First, welcome to the forum!

What Charley's getting at is the fact that 1979 was very much an 'interim' year; it shares some components with the 1800 Betas, and some parts with the later 2000 cars, but some components are unique to the 1979 model, and this can be a nuisance for parts and repairs.

Of my three ('75, '79. '81), my experience with my '79 Coupé was the least happy, but that was due to deferred (read "zero") maintenance by the previous owners; nightmare electrics. I'm glad to hear you're happy with your '79. But I wouldn't use this sale result as a guide to value--only as an demonstration of ignorance. There are Beta Coupés that are worth that kind of money, but the eBay car isn't one of them.

[Georgemia]

First, welcome to the forum!

What Charley's getting at is the fact that 1979 was very much an 'interim' year; it shares some components with the 1800 Betas, and some parts with the later 2000 cars, but some components are unique to the 1979 model, and this can be a nuisance for parts and repairs.

Of my three ('75, '79. '81), my experience with my '79 Coupé was the least happy, but that was due to deferred (read "zero") maintenance by the previous owners; nightmare electrics. I'm glad to hear you're happy with your '79. But I wouldn't use this sale result as a guide to value--only as an demonstration of ignorance. There are Beta Coupés that are worth that kind of money, but the eBay car isn't one of them.

Thanks for the clarification. Had mine for a couple of years now, and it runs great. A few gremlins, but that was expected, and none are crippling.

It's a rather beautiful car, really, and rather rust free.

What systems are different?

[Georgemia]

[QUOTE=Georgemia;24637]

Buy a new thermostat for it and then let me know how you make out with that.;)

How many other systems are unique?

[davidb]

Go to the downloads section. You will see manuals which are
'79 "specific".

[Charley]

Georgemia,
I would like to apologize to you and any other 1979 Beta owners who were offended or insulted by my "Bastard year " comment. I sometimes use the wrong choice of words when voicing my opinion. Perhaps I should have said "Orphan year". Big thanks to Ed for his very diplomatic explanation regarding my post also. Peace !:red face:

[SubGothius]

How many other systems are unique?

I also have a '79, Zagato spider in my case, which has been a reasonably reliable daily driver for the nearly 6 years I've had it. Aside from the radiator itself and the water pump (both of which I think are common with model years before and after), most of the cooling system's plumbing is unique, due to the unusual thermostat "experiment" they tried for '79.

It was the first year in the US for the 2-liter engine but the final year for carburetion, necessitating quite a lot of Rube Goldberg jiggery-pokery to comply with increasingly-stringent US (and especially California) emissions standards until fuel injection was ready for market as of the '81 model year. The '79s have a unique, more convoluted and restrictive intake manifold that makes fitting a larger carb pointless (by itself at least), and most of the other unique bits are those Goldberg variations: assorted gadgets that tweak the ignition timing and fuel-air mixture under various special-case conditions, and yet more to compensate for various issues caused by the emissions gear in the first place. I think the odd '79-only thermostat may have been necessitated by all the emissions junk taking up the space where the usual T-stat would normally go.

The good news is, unless you live in California or other jurisdiction that mandates all-original emissions kit, all of those unique compromises can be fairly easily overcome by removing emissions junk and replacing various items with earlier or later equipment. Remove the minor bits of emissions-tweaking gear when it goes bad (or just do it preemptively) and plug or bypass whatever holes that may leave, replace the '79 intake manifold with a '78 or earlier manny, which can then be fitted with a nice Weber 34 DMTR/DAT/DATR (or just go for a dual Weber 40 DCNF and manny, a setup which goes quite well with the 2L block). Once some of the emissions junk has been removed, then if you wish, you can also retrofit the cooling system plumbing from an earlier/later donor car and use a more typical thermostat.

The other '79-only differences are minor, mostly matters of trim and amenities. The 120-mph speedo is desirable to some leadfoots (changed to 85-mph speedo for '81), some prefer the '79's gas filler hidden behind a door vs. having an exposed cap higher up on the fender, and many '79s came with the simpler manual window winders.

[1,6 HF]

As I understand it, from following various threads--not from my limited experience with the electrical gremlins on my '79 Coupé--there are also a number of wiring differences, including a unique '79 column stalk assembly.

In any case, a realiable Beta Coupé isn't any less reliable simply because it's a '79. The differences aren't an issue until you have a problem,

[Georgemia]

Is there any US-market Beta coupe that would normally sell above $5K?

A friend was interested in this car a month or so ago, and I suggested he stay away. So it *is* for sale, not sure if the seller here is the same one.

It'll be interesting to see if this comes up again on eBay because the buyer failed to come through once he finds this thread.

All though I agree that 5K is a good price for a good car in many cases, and about what NADA says, the guide gives $9,950 as current estimates for a "high retail" car. Not sure I'd part with mine for 5K, but at nearly 10K, I'd listen.

[Georgemia]

I also have a '79, Zagato spider in my case, which has been a reasonably reliable daily driver for the nearly 6 years I've had it. Aside from the radiator itself and the water pump (both of which I think are common with model years before and after), most of the cooling system's plumbing is unique, due to the unusual thermostat "experiment" they tried for '79.

It was the first year in the US for the 2-liter engine but the final year for carburetion, necessitating quite a lot of Rube Goldberg jiggery-pokery to comply with increasingly-stringent US (and especially California) emissions standards until fuel injection was ready for market as of the '81 model year. The '79s have a unique, more convoluted and restrictive intake manifold that makes fitting a larger carb pointless (by itself at least), and most of the other unique bits are those Goldberg variations: assorted gadgets that tweak the ignition timing and fuel-air mixture under various special-case conditions, and yet more to compensate for various issues caused by the emissions gear in the first place. I think the odd '79-only thermostat may have been necessitated by all the emissions junk taking up the space where the usual T-stat would normally go.

The good news is, unless you live in California or other jurisdiction that mandates all-original emissions kit, all of those unique compromises can be fairly easily overcome by removing emissions junk and replacing various items with earlier or later equipment. Remove the minor bits of emissions-tweaking gear when it goes bad (or just do it preemptively) and plug or bypass whatever holes that may leave, replace the '79 intake manifold with a '78 or earlier manny, which can then be fitted with a nice Weber 34 DMTR/DAT/DATR (or just go for a dual Weber 40 DCNF and manny, a setup which goes quite well with the 2L block). Once some of the emissions junk has been removed, then if you wish, you can also retrofit the cooling system plumbing from an earlier/later donor car and use a more typical thermostat.

The other '79-only differences are minor, mostly matters of trim and amenities. The 120-mph speedo is desirable to some leadfoots (changed to 85-mph speedo for '81), some prefer the '79's gas filler hidden behind a door vs. having an exposed cap higher up on the fender, and many '79s came with the simpler manual window winders.

Thanks for this helpful explanation.
George B, 79 Beta Coupe

[1,6 HF]

All though I agree that 5K is a good price for a good car in many cases, and about what NADA says, the guide gives $9,950 as current estimates for a "high retail" car. Not sure I'd part with mine for 5K, but at nearly 10K, I'd listen.

I really like the Beta Coupé; I very much prefer the lines of the Coupé to the Zagato. But $9,950 isn't "high retail"--it's "high on crack retail". I would venture that very few Beta Coupés change hands for anything approaching $5k, let alone $10k, and least of all for an automatic with a mediocre respray.

So I don't mean to sound discouraging (though I'm sure I'll manage anyway), but when it comes to a 1979 Beta Coupé, I wouldn't trust the NADA guide as far as I could throw the Coupé itself. For that money, you'd have to be talking about a literally flawless Condition 1 car, of the sort that just been subjected to a major restoration that no one of any financial sanity would lavish on a Beta Coupé.

It's great that you love your car; I'd have my '81 back in a minute if I had the space for it. But please don't get hung up on the aberrant price that the eBay example brought.

[SubGothius]

Ah, it just occurred to me, one more significant '79-only difference is the block-mounted distributor with electronic ignition, but there'd be little reason to change this, unless perhaps you go the dual-Weber route (which may be carburetion overkill without a high-compression rebuild anyway). The dizzy cap and rotor are shared with other common FIATs, so those are generally in-stock at our usual mailorder parts vendors and easy to obtain. The electronic ignition control module is a common GM-derived HEI unit, and upgradeable if you wish using high-output units (e.g., Accel 35361 module and 8140 coil, or similar).

I was under the impression the column stalk switch cluster was the same as later models sharing the same dashboard, but perhaps the stalks differ in some superficial way, such as their markings...? :confused:

[davidb]

"financial sanity" Ed? Then call me nuts. I know I've got
over $12K in my '82 LBZ. Rust abatement & pro-repaint
[ALL trim removed] body shop bill was $7.6K alone! Then
add all the mechanical restore costs? And I still haven't
cured it's "coal cart" ride! Am I nuts? Is it fun to drive?
Yes to both.

[1,6 HF]

Well, David, I'd note the following:
1. Condition for condition, a 1982 Beta Zagato will be worth more than a 1979 Coupé.
2. I did suggest that we shouldn't get too hung up on commercial value.
3. I never claimed that any of us was financially sane, least of all me.

[Alex Csank]

I hope whoever bought that '79 enjoys the car. It is definitely more money than I would think it is worth. But it isn't my money, so I'm not worried about it.

I learned long ago from a great guy who was in the business of restoring and fixing old Alfas, Fiats and Lancias that nobody should get into these cars for the investment or 're-sale' value...you will almost always come out upside-down! He gave me the example of a gorgeous, completely restored early Fiat 124 Spider he had just finished restoring to 'concours' quality for a female owner. Although the restoration costs were in the neighborhood of $40K and the value of the car was no more than $20K (if you could ever find a BUYER!), the woman wanted the car restored properly because it had been her Father's car - which he loved, and had been the first car she ever rode in and also the first car she ever drove! When he died, she decided that she would pull the car out from under the canvas in her Father's garage and have it completely restored so she could pay tribute to her Dad and have something to enjoy on summer days.

I know that story isn't about a Lancia...but it reminds me of why I like to rescue old, quirky Italian cars. I just love these cars and it has nothing to do with their value!

I really enjoyed my '82 LBZ, just as I have enjoyed all my Alfas...and most of the other silly cars and bikes I have owned. That '82 LBZ made me smile...and that's what counts, right?

[SubGothius]

That '82 LBZ made me smile...and that's what counts, right?

That is exactly what it's ALL about! :D If you're not smiling and having fun with it, then what's the point?

[1,6 HF]

My point with Georgemia was simply that you can't look at any single sale and say "wow--my car must be worth that." So I'll say it again; it makes absolutely no sense to draw any conclusions from the aberrant price for the eBay car.

But as Alex's story underscores, there's a real difference between price and value, and the latter is the more important. I would argue that it is important to keep track of the market price, but only for two reasons: one, to make sure that your agreed-value insurance is generally keeping up with (heaven forbid) replacement costs; and, two, to be able to fully understand the choices you make. If you decide to spend "whatever it taskes" to restore a car that can only be worth half what you're spending, because the car was your father's and has irreplaceable sentimental value, you ought to be doing so as a conscious decision--not out of ignorance or the delusion that you're making a rational financial decision.

Of course, believing that life should be about conscious decisions is not the same as believing that it should only be about rational ones. If the car is a family heirloom, or merely puts a smile on your face, and you understand what you're doing, and can afford the cost, I'm entirely with you in spending whatever it takes to bring your car to any level you want. I just don't like to see people kidding themselves.

[Georgemia]

Georgemia,
I would like to apologize to you and any other 1979 Beta owners who were offended or insulted by my "Bastard year " comment. I sometimes use the wrong choice of words when voicing my opinion. Perhaps I should have said "Orphan year". Big thanks to Ed for his very diplomatic explanation regarding my post also. Peace !:red face:

Hey Charley,

Thanks for the note. When typing in emails, it's easy to forget that what would be funny face to face with a wink and a smile can come across kind of cold.

I've been given a good excuse to do more engine mods! An opportunity, if you ask me!

George B.

[Georgemia]

"financial sanity" Ed? Then call me nuts. I know I've got
over $12K in my '82 LBZ. Rust abatement & pro-repaint
[ALL trim removed] body shop bill was $7.6K alone! Then
add all the mechanical restore costs? And I still haven't
cured it's "coal cart" ride! Am I nuts? Is it fun to drive?
Yes to both.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the same category of financial investments as a dinner out or a vacation. I don't justify keeping my Lancia going as an "investment," although sadly, I suspect we all have some investments that have performed worse, of late.

It's nice to think the cars are valued by the market, but if you're trying to make money, I think we all know that fixing up Lancias, or almost any car worth less than $80K, is a losing proposition. The only folks who make money at this are professional mechanics and the auction houses.

[Alex Csank]

...it makes absolutely no sense to draw any conclusions from the aberrant price for the eBay car.

...I would argue that it is important to keep track of the market price, but only for two reasons: one, to make sure that your agreed-value insurance is generally keeping up with (heaven forbid) replacement costs; and, two, to be able to fully understand the choices you make.

...I just don't like to see people kidding themselves.

Great points ED! I completely agree.