How do you resurrect a transmission?

[Lanseeya Z]

My Zag has been in storage since '93 and a few months ago I decided that it was time to get it back on the road. It's taking longer than I thought it would but I'm sure it's going to be worth it in the end. I've had somebody working on it for the past 4 months, but now it's back in my hands so that I can take care of the last few steps.

So now here's the fun part. My 79 Zag is the special edition with an automatic tranny. Yeah yeah, I know they're supposed to be crappy trannys, but there's under 75,000 miles on the car (so I'd like to think the tranny still has a few years on it) and I'd love to keep it in just because it makes the car even more of a rarity. After replacing the kickdown cable, the car drives but slips every now and then and sometimes it doesn't do much when it's in Reverse. It's kind of hard to truly diagnose it right now because the gas tank is full of crud and rust so the car runs pretty crappy right now. I'll be pulling the tank off in a few days to get it blasted or boiled or whatever the heck the shop is going to do to it. Once it's cleaned, I'll have more to report.

But in the meanwhile, I'm hearing some conflicting things about transmission maintenance and I'm not sure what my next step should be. I picked up some of that "Lucas transmission fix" stuff and some new tranny fluid. My plan was to drain out my old fluid (that's be in there for at least 16 years!) and put in the new stuff with the Lucas, but is there any chance of me doing any damage with that Lucas stuff? Should I pour in some sort of "flush" stuff before I drain it? Also, keep in mind that the car won't run for more than a few minutes right now so it doesn't get anywhere near operating temp. Should I wait until the gas tank issue is taken care of so that the car can idle properly before I drain the tranny?

Things might be bad enough to the point where I need to replace the whole tranny but if I can fix my Zag with $20 worth of fluid and an hour, then it's worth a try.

Any advice from anybody that's restored their transmission (auto or manual?)

Thanks in advance. I'll be putting up some pics soon.

[1,6 HF]

If the fluid's been in there for 16 years, I'd say the first thing you ought to do is drain it and replace it. The condition of the current fluid may tell you something, but I'd start by refilling it using only the factory-recommended fluid, without any mystery additive. If the slippage persists, you can then dump in Uncle Friendly's Miracle Transmission Fix and Hair Restorer, or whatever, on the theory that--at that point--you couldn't do any further harm.

And if that still doesn't fix the problem, you have a couple of choices: Take it to a professional auto transmission shop and, once the laughter has died down, see if they can clean the filter or make some simple adjustment. Or retire it to service as a boat anchor and find a decent used manual gearbox. Because I can't imagine you'll find anyone who has restored one of those. They were lousy designs at the time, and were offered for only a single year for a very obvious reason--the same reason why they're rarities today.

It's always possible that you have one of the few that actually works. But if it doesn't work properly now, or with some simple and obvious maintenance, it's probably not worth the time and effort to restore it, IMHO. Assuming you could ever find the parts to do so.

Good luck. I hope it's as simple as a fluid change or filter clean.

[prorallycodriver]

Fresh fluid often just makes a slipping transmission worse, unless it wasn't the correct fluid anyway. Not sure why but thinking because the old fluid has a little grit in it from being used making it more vicious/heavier for moving parts to grab each other and changing to new fluid is lighter is slipperier. Your results may vary.

Whats the old stuff look like? Is the level correct? Have heard bad reviews for most Lucas additives. One driver turned down sponsorship $ from them because he did not wish to be associated w/ them for that reason and he is an auto engineer.

[Jim Keller]

Lucas trans additive will be fine, it isn't anything like Uncle Hanks Mirical Magical Cureall. I have used it in many transmissions with great results and Never EVER had any problems from using it. It will stop some slipage and most leaks. But that said, I wouldn't hold my breath, Lancia automatics normally didn't make it past 18K miles, yours is way past it's experation date! LOL

Two of the biggest problems with the Lancia trans is one, it uses a remote trans cooler instead of the radiator like most manufactures, (the auto was an after thought only for the US market, so the whole system is kinda like installing an aftermarket air conditioner under your dash, very cheezy! LOL), and the trans cooler is located where it easily pickes up road grim and debries causing it to plug up resulting in the trans overheating and burning out. The second problem is there are no transmission shops that can over haul them, one because they are so rare, anyone working there now has never even seen, let alone heard of one, and the other is due to you can not obtain a rebuild clutch kit for them anymore. If it's slipping now, your only hope is Lucas trans fix additive and holding your breath. Personally, I wouldn't even bother with it, even if you got it to work for now decently, do you really want to go off into the distance hoping it won't suddenly fail far from home? no way I would go out of my county with an auto Beta, I like getting home under my own power, not at the hellsih expense of a roll back tow truck! LOL Swapping to a 5 speed isn't really difficult since the car is made for only that transmission anywy, it just takes the time and effort to do it and some minimal cash for the use parts car to scavange the parts from.

And that's ONLY my opinion, not neccessarily fact!

[davidb]

I whole heartedly agree w/Jim. In many ways. 75K on a Beta
w/an auto is, well? Nuts? If you want to keep the car Bishop
source a 5-spd. A VX box would be my suggestion. Purportedly
MUCH nicer in 5TH [lower revs]. Luck & such . . .

[len_newstrum]

Welcome to Lancisti, Lanseeya Z!

If your automatic transmission is toast I have a really great deal on a 5-speed and probably anything else needed to convert to a manual transmission. The only catch is, you have to take the rest of the car!:D

I finished restoring my '78 Beta Couple last winter and can now get rid of my parts car (a '78 that I retired a few years ago for cosmetic reasons). When it was retired it was running perfectly, including the transmission. It is pretty much complete, except for the instrument panel, carb, and the cylinder heads. The heads come with the car, except for the cams--which were high performance, so I moved them to the "new" car. It has also had the complete air-conditioning and emissions control system removed--something that you should also consider doing.

Since I don't need it any more I was going to give it to one of the charities that take dead cars for free (and make it tax deductible), but I would rather find at least some of it a good home.

If you would like it, its yours just for helping me snake it out of where it is. I think that a rental front-wheel dolly and something with a tow-hitch that could pull it from Yarrow Point (East end of the Evergreen Point floating bridge) to Federal Way is all that you would need. I'm guessing that it is about 35 miles. I would like the power-steering rack back so that I could get it rebuilt as an on-the-shelf spare.

BTW: There is another Federal Way person, Bob Ormsby, that just acquired a Lancia Beta.

I also have a ton of manuals, etc., if you need any technical info. They are for '78 Coupes, but the Zag is essentially identical except for some body parts. The '79 is also a bit of a bastard child, but there are couple of other guys on the Lancisti Forums that can help you out in that regard.

Give me a call if you are interested or need any free advice.

Len Newstrum
(425)453-8584

[John Allen]

I'm very close as well, NE Tacoma..... Back yard line is Federal Way...

[Allen Lofland]

Wel,Now that we had heard from all the EXPERTS :) you know what an X-Pert is dont you :) " a Previous Drip "anyway. I dont doubt that the Gods are on their side with this bit about the lancia Auto being junk BUT I didnt hear from any one that actually had driven one or had delt with one for a reasonable time, say a week :)
I took my 5 speed Focus to a Cottman dealership here a few months ago and for $800.00 he completly bench checked my tranny. I mean every bit disaseembled and put back together. I was impressed with him. I asked him if he worked on Fiat trannies, he pulled out a box of Fiat 124 gears he had under the bench, said they had been there years , did I want them, ya I said but better yet, you keep them and I know where to get them when I neeed them.
We talked a bit about my Scorpion and Beta's and he said, hey a trannie is a trannie, doesnt matter who made it, they are all trannies, bring it in and we will fix it. Give a Good Tranne EXPERT a chance with it BEFORE you go of the deep end.
Just my opionion. But I wouldnt mind having an auto beta some day .....That Works :)

[1,6 HF]

Allen,

Trannies are trannies? I think it’s fair to say that manual gearboxes are far more similar, one to another, than 30-YO slushboxes. So, with all due respect, I think you're being just a bit naive in suggesting that you can take a Beta slushbox to any EXPERT in automatic transmissions and easily have it sorted out. As Jim correctly notes, you’ll be taking an oddball box to someone who’ll never have seen one like it, and asking him to completely strip it down and reassemble it with no replacement parts available. And that’s assuming a simple rebuild and clean–with no new parts–will solve whatever problems he finds.

As I said in my earlier post, if a fluid change or an additive doesn’t cure it, it’s worth taking to a transmission shop for a quick look. But I think the odds of success are lower than you suggest.

[John Allen]

I agree, the Lancia auto box IS NOT a run of the mill automatic. If you try to go to a normal 'auto trans expert' I will bet that you will have a lot of dollars spent in pulling and disassembling the trans only to find out that he can't repair it. My FIAT/Lancia mechanics (they only work on FIATs) have tried to work on these over the years and found that NO replacement parts are available (and haven't been for something like 20 years). It has been explained to me that even the different manufacturers have denied any association with this design. When these mechanics worked for the Lancia dealers back when they were sold, the 'solution' to a bad transmission was to replace it with a 5 speed!

From what I've gathered (someone may add to or correct me, please) this trans was developed by Citroen and adapted to the Beta for the American market. Sorry for anyone offened here, but anything develpoed by the French has to be 'different' (I think its a law :) ) It *may* be an AP design, so some parts from British cars *may* be usable, this would be a major undertaking (read expensive) to sort out.

I did find a couple UK pages referencing the AP Lancia trans, I have no idea if the parts CAN be bought.
http://www.jpat.co.uk/AP%20Lancia.pdf

Good luck!

[John Allen]

I asked him if he worked on Fiat trannies, he pulled out a box of Fiat 124 gears he had under the bench, said they had been there years , did I want them, ya I said but better yet, you keep them and I know where to get them when I neeed them.

Allen, you should know that FIAT got it 'right' with the auto 124, they used a common GM transmission - every auto trans guy can work on those. Yes, an auto 124 shifts about as well and accelerates about as well as a Chevy Chevette.....

[1,6 HF]

...From what I've gathered (someone may add to or correct me, please) this trans was developed by Citroen and adapted to the Beta for the American market. Sorry for anyone offened here, but anything develpoed by the French has to be 'different' (I think its a law :) ) It *may* be an AP design, so some parts from British cars *may* be usable, this would be a major undertaking (read expensive) to sort out.

I did find a couple UK pages referencing the AP Lancia trans, I have no idea if the parts CAN be bought.
http://www.jpat.co.uk/AP%20Lancia.pdf (http://www.jpat.co.uk/AP%20Lancia.pdf)

I don't know where you gathered that, but Citroen had nothing whatsoever to do with it. It's well documented that the Beta automatic was initially developed by AP, and was originally to be built by AP for Lancia. But AP dropped out of the project at some point before production, leaving Lancia to sort it and built it themselves.

The JP Automatic Transmissions web site does indeed show part numbers relating to the Lancia unit. The PDF shows an issue date of November 2000, and there are no prices, so it's not clear what the availability really is. But it's at least a glimmer of hope that overhaul kits or other parts may be available from the UK.

[Lanseeya Z]

Nice to see so many responses to my little 'ol problem. You guys rock. 8)

You know, the funny thing is that when this project began, I took my car to a shop not too far from here (mainly because they have a reputation for being electrical wizards and I had alot of electrical issues) and I told them about what was going on with my car and how I wanted to restore it. The first thing they told me was "well, after 16 years of sitting, we've got to get all those fluids out... gas, coolant, everything." Made sense, right? But a month later, when I pulled my car out of there, I noticed that they hadn't done JACK with my transmission. They never drained it or anything.

So, I had the car towed to shop #2. This place has a great rep, and the best part about it is that the owner was actually the mechanic that used to work on my car back in '91 when I first got it! He actually has a Zagato and has tons of experience doing all kinds of wacky stuff to them. Fast forward to 3 months later and he had done alot of stuff, but he never drained my tranny either.

I was sitting there thinkin... "Huh. Shouldn't that be the FIRST thing you do to an old tranny that's been sitting for almost 20 years?" But hey what do I know.

So maybe this thing really is "The Beast That All Men Fear" and no company will admit to unleashing upon the Earth... :twisted:

But when this project is done, I'm definitely going to be hanging out at car shows and it would be the ultimate rock star moment to be able to say "Yeah, I may have the last Beta Zagato auto transmission on the planet. Wanna ride?"

You guys have all given me alot to consider. An extra thanks for all the local guys. I'm sure I'll be asking more questions. Even though I've had this car since I was a kid, I'm only now beginning to learn about it. The only thing that I knew about my Lancia back in '93 was that I couldn't afford to fix it!

BTW, I picked up a kind-of introduction book that Lancia put out about the auto tranny way back in '79. Some good info in there. It mentions the procedure for adjusting the linkage. Does that address slipping at all or is that for other minor tranny issues? The book doesn't really mention WHEN you should do it. It also mentions some bizarro tool that I'm supposed to use, but I'm assuming there's some Shady Tree Mechanic substitute...

[John Allen]

I can't remember where the Citroen (in my mind) came from, I think it was in one of those 'well documented' publications on the Beta. I don't know if it makes me feel better that Lancia felt they could "sort it out" when a company who specialized in transmissions backed out.

Knowing that there is at least a couple part numbers to chase should help in the long run. Someone out there has to know what parts are included in these kits and cross reference items to other kits.

Not to accept what the local mechanics have done, but maybe they chose not to drain it since they didn't have a replacement gasket and filter? Not sure of the Lancia unit, but most have no drain plug, you have to pull the pan to drain it. If the level was OK and didn't look/smell bad, it is possible to leave it alone and top it off. Did you ask the mechanic why he didn't change the fluid?


I don't know where you gathered that, but Citroen had nothing whatsoever to do with it. It's well documented that the Beta automatic was initially developed by AP, and was originally to be built by AP for Lancia. But AP dropped out of the project at some point before production, leaving Lancia to sort it and built it themselves.

The JP Automatic Transmissions web site does indeed show part numbers relating to the Lancia unit. The PDF shows an issue date of November 2000, and there are no prices, so it's not clear what the availability really is. But it's at least a glimmer of hope that overhaul kits or other parts may be available from the UK.

[Allen Lofland]

All that is probably correct but I would still check out a good trannie shop, Dont write them a blank check, dont even let them touch it, TALK TO THEM and see what they say, After all, they might be in themood for a good laugh but talk is cheap, Getten that trannie fixed is going to take some one that knows auto trannies, Lancia, Ford Checy they all go around and around hehe.
I aggree with you that a running properly Lancia with a Auto box would be unique and worth saving IF its possible and With in reason money wise. Swappingnout a 5 speed is a job.

[KeppelmanJ]

Closest I know to real authority on these automatics is a factory trained Beta mechanic who says these transmission are junk, made for high performance but never held up. Same opinion came from IMM in Phoenix when they were still working on Lancias. Why fight it?

[Jim Keller]

Hey Len, speaking of that, have you talked to Bob? or been over to his shop to see the Coupe?

So far as an Auto Beta Allen, my thoughts were to look at maybe a modern swap in of a Ford Escort or Honda Civic like auto tranny, 4 speed or more, or more like my Fusion's, it has a 6 speed auto! keeps revs in power range at all times, it's a tiny 2 liter 4 but really goes quick! all the way past 120 and it's a big car for a 4 banger......I have actually been thinking about that a long time due to my back, clutching is darn near impossible these days but I would really REALLY like to have a Zagato, either my old good one or one in comperable condition back, but in auto form so I could actually enjoy driving it

[SubGothius]

So far as an Auto Beta Allen, my thoughts were to look at maybe a modern swap in of a Ford Escort or Honda Civic like auto tranny, 4 speed or more, or more like my Fusion's, it has a 6 speed auto! keeps revs in power range at all times, it's a tiny 2 liter 4 but really goes quick! all the way past 120 and it's a big car for a 4 banger......I have actually been thinking about that a long time due to my back, clutching is darn near impossible these days but I would really REALLY like to have a Zagato, either my old good one or one in comperable condition back, but in auto form so I could actually enjoy driving it
Now, here's an idea: has anyone seriously considered an Alfa 164L auto'box? I gather they used a derivative of the Beta manual tranny in the 164, so maybe the auto they used may also be easier to adapt back to a Beta? :confused:

[LanciaDave]

Tyson wrote:
Now, here's an idea: has anyone seriously considered an Alfa 164L auto'box? I gather they used a derivative of the Beta manual tranny in the 164, so maybe the auto they used may also be easier to adapt back to a Beta?

No. It's not the same and it's not gonna fit easily. 164 unit is a big ol honkin thing.

Everybody's a little bit right here. Beta AT is not a great unit. Italians built sweet shifting manuals. Automatics were a big American thing. Look at the issues lately with the Quattroporte automatics. They're still trying to perfect the operation.

Sometimes it's best to go to who specializes for each thing. With the special disc brakes and tuning the twin cam, one of our Italian car specialists is great. When you're looking at pushrods (like an 850) or automatics, specialists in those areas, who may work on many American cars, can be a good resource. If they're really knowledgeable, honest, and do quality work, you can do really well and sometimes save some money.

I don't think the auto is a great design, but it's not just automatically scrap metal either.

Sometimes with slipping you can adjust the bands and a few other things like that.

Good luck,
Dave Decker

[rossocorsa]

Italians never took auto boxes seriously having an auto back then was like admitting to being a girl!!! I remember someone who had a dedra auto telling me that he asked about some parts whilst in Italy and the mechanics were incredulous they didn't even believe that lancia built one! that box was another disaster by the way this time with VW internals another concession to the outside of Italy markets and again not taken seriously. Chris ex-betacar has a couple of beta auto trans workshop manuals on ebay at the moment his id is 'italpartman' well worth buying if you have an auto ...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/lancia-beta-automatic-shop-manual_W0QQitemZ390104862473QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item5ad40fcf09 #ht_500wt_1182

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/lancia-beta-and-delta-automatic-transmission-manual_W0QQitemZ390104861635QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item5ad40fcbc3 #ht_500wt_1182


but better to get a 5 speed box, even if it is working right the AP box blunts the whole car

[len_newstrum]

Hey Len, speaking of that, have you talked to Bob? or been over to his shop to see the Coupe?We exchanged e-mails, but he was going out of town for a month or so. It turned out that we both worked in the same area of Boeing (the Developmental Center) at the same time in our prior working lives. Small world.

We'll be getting together soon, I'm sure. Especially when he starts looking for parts.:)

I was going to go off on a tangent here into part problem I'm having, but decided that it warrants a new thread.

Len

[bjwhite]

Maybe you need this manual now sitting on eBay..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RARE-OLD-LANCIA-AUTOMATIC-TRANSMISSION-BOOK-/280427935630?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_100&hash=item414aceb78e#ht_500wt_956