Limits of a Vx box - Anyone know?

[Darren]

Hi all,

As you may or may not be aware, I'm planning to go the V6 Alfa route in the Monte - but not a while, I still have to get it back on the road with the current engine yet!:D Anyhoo, I'm picking up the new engine this weekend on the way home from Cumbria and whilst I do have access to a standard 5 speed box - 6 speed I think is going to be too much hassle to get to work - I wondered if the Vx box is up to the job of being mated to a 3 litre 12 valve supercharged engine?

I know that I'll need to make up an adapter plate, but obviously driveshafts will be sorted, along with gear selection from the Monte install.

Anyone got any thoughts, ideas or comments?

Thanks in advance guys.

Cheers

[Jim Keller]

Not sure on the Alfa V6, but a few have stuffed V6's in the Scorpions over here using the stock trans, one I know of was an Acura V6, the other a Ford Taurus SHO Yamaha produced V6. It is my understandiung, (not personally confirmed), the Beta box was originally designed for the Alfa V6 but ended up with the Fiat twin cam 4 by time production started. I hear tell that is why they are so durable with the 4 behind them, (not enough power to harm a 6 cyl tranny), durable anyway when compared to Fiat X1/9 and Spider 124/2000 trannies

[SubGothius]

It is my understandiung, (not personally confirmed), the Beta box was originally designed for the Alfa V6 but ended up with the Fiat twin cam 4 by time production started.
I'd heard it was the other way'round, namely that the Beta 'box was over-engineered in typical olde-skoole Lancia fashion by original Lancia engineers remaining on staff shortly after the FIAT takeover, and this proved so durable that it was adapted for use in the 164 and other large FWD transverse-engined models in the FIAT family.

[rossocorsa]

I'd heard it was the other way'round, namely that the Beta 'box was over-engineered in typical olde-skoole Lancia fashion by original Lancia engineers remaining on staff shortly after the FIAT takeover, and this proved so durable that it was adapted for use in the 164 and other large FWD transverse-engined models in the FIAT family.

that makes more sense as fiat didn't own alfa until years later having said that I thought that the box was part of the aborted lancia/fiat/citroen collaboration and a citroen design lancia would have built a box with a sweeter change

[Darren]

Thanks for the info guys - very informative! Had heard of a Toyota transplant, but not a ford or Acura, wow but why? Ah well each to their own I guess!:D

So looks as though it's worth pursuing then. I rebuilt a vx box with new bearings and bits so it would be a shame to consign it to the workshop spare without a great deal of use. I'll post up pics and start yet another ongoing thread after the weekend when I pick up the first engine!

Thanks again!

[Jim Keller]

Why install a Ford Taurus Yamaha built SHO V6 in a Scorpion? well, how about for a stone stock 220HP that doesn't weigh anymore to speak of than the stock twin cam? and that's without any modifications!

I tried to find the pictures Lanny sent me to show you how perfectly it fit, then tried to find his email or a web site but couldn't locate anything. Anyone still have Lanny's email? Dan C.? Since that particular Scorpion was once mine, (#339), this thread has revived my curiosity to see how far he has come on the project. Last I emailed with him, many years ago, he had the engine in and was working out small detail stuff, but I haven't heard from him in several years, I think both of us have changed computers and emails several times since then.

Here is where I had gotten it to when I sold it to him, but I was going to use the built up 2.0L 10:1 pistoned twin cam with dual 45 DCNF's, heavily modifed big valve head, 40/80 80/40 cams with adjustable pullys I built and brand new trans seen in the pics, but he left me with all that stuff and just took the rolling chassie, wheels and tires you see in these pics. It went, of course, with all the Monte fiberglass bumpers and related stuff plus the dubble bubble one piece glass top Rodger Grantham used to produce and the custom drilled 15" wheels with 50 series tires........I miss that one, I had a boat load of work in it, would still have it if I didn't have a bi-polar AADHD wife........argh!......I was down to just painting and final assembly when her dang lies caught up to her and it had to be sold off to bail her out of trouble......again!......and no, I still haven't forgiven her! LOL

[John Allen]

I don't think I would go with a VX trans and an adapter plate to the Alfa engine, I suspect it will be too long to fit. IIRC, the Alfa transaxle is located in the same LH/RH location as the Scorp/Monte (uses the same LH shaft) and is pretty tight on the 'belt' side. Adding a 1~2" adapter may push it too far and moving it 'back' to the LH side just means you have to make up some new axles (go far enough and I guess you could use X1/9's).

Also, the Alfa transaxle has equal length half-shafts and a jackshaft running across the engine to the RH inner CV joint. I would wonder if adding the longer Monte axle would interfere with the exhaust (or other?) during wheel movement.

Granted, I have never seen one in the flesh, I would love to try one. I have a Nissan VE30DE V6 engine/trans in the garage that someday will make it into a Scorpion - looks like it will fit no problem. I chose this engine due to its size/power/availablility and since i had to cancel the Thema 8.32 V8 I had in my possesion until my wife informed me we had a child coming..... Oh well, I would have probably spent way too much on that engine anyway.

Oh yes, another engine I gave serious thought into was a SAAB 9000 turbo, it looks like it would drop right in and have enough HP to make me happy. The 9000 chassis was a joint development with Alfa/Lancia/FIAT so I think it could be adapted easily.

[Darren]

Thanks for the continued advice on this guys. I will measure everything up before I commit to adapter plates and suchlike. The Vx has equal length shafts, and it was easy enough to convert it back to the Monte setup - will have a looksee and clearance when I get to that point.

Your reasons for using Ford power are similar to me using Alfa power - drop in 200 bhp+ in standard trim. Just for me personally I wanted to stay in the family and hence Alfa. Kappa maybe an option by 24v and not exactly common here. I could get a ford v6 seriously cheap like 150 quid for engine, box and all anciliaries, but I just couldn't do it. I'd never be able to open the engine cover again in company!!:'( - Wow, what's that car?'

'It's a Lancia Montecarlo'

'Looks lovely, but why has it got a mundano (Mondeo) engine in it?'

'I'll get me coat then' :D

NOI

[John Allen]

I wish we had more access to Alfa power here in the states. 164s are still a little rare and parts are as well. I would prefer the sound of the Alfa over almost any engine considered.

Not that I would put a Ford in mine either, but you do know that the SHO is not your average Cologne based OHV V6, don't you? The engine was very impressive 'in the day' (225hp) and featured DOHCs, variable length inlet manifolds and the like. Still a visually interesting engine...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_SHO_V6_engine

[Jim Keller]

Another option I know of, and I am NOT recomending it personally, but have thought many times of buying it and going with it, is a Scorpion I know of in Akron Ohio, it has a Dodge Omni GLH, (Go Like hell), 4 cyl in it..............I bet parts and performance mod stuff may be just a tad easier to aquire for that, but not much easier, I don't think there were a lot of GLH's made, not sure though, they never raised my eyebrows to notice them even when they were new, so I know very little except from a few guys I know had them back when that claim they did indeed Go like "H"

[Darren]

I wish we had more access to Alfa power here in the states. 164s are still a little rare and parts are as well. I would prefer the sound of the Alfa over almost any engine considered.

Not that I would put a Ford in mine either, but you do know that the SHO is not your average Cologne based OHV V6, don't you? The engine was very impressive 'in the day' (225hp) and featured DOHCs, variable length inlet manifolds and the like. Still a visually interesting engine...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_SHO_V6_engine

Hi John,

The alfa unit is a great unit and it sounds superb - can't wait to have it in my car!! See my post over on the scorp list - picked it up at the weekend. We are lucky to have Alfas in plentiful supply here, both 12 and 24 valve units. Maybethat's why folks consider ford transplants over there if they're more plentiful? The SHO looks a bit like the ST24 unit but with a slightly different intake arrangement. Great engine, just not in a Lancia

Cheers

[Darren]

Another option I know of, and I am NOT recomending it personally, but have thought many times of buying it and going with it, is a Scorpion I know of in Akron Ohio, it has a Dodge Omni GLH, (Go Like hell), 4 cyl in it..............I bet parts and performance mod stuff may be just a tad easier to aquire for that, but not much easier, I don't think there were a lot of GLH's made, not sure though, they never raised my eyebrows to notice them even when they were new, so I know very little except from a few guys I know had them back when that claim they did indeed Go like "H"

Now we're way out of my knowledge base! Ford argument stands here too - why go ford/dodge etc when you can go fiat/lancia/alfa, butI do take your point on availability