Intro

[RdeMasi]

Hi, I'm Ralph from Brooklyn, NY and I'm a member of the American and UK Lancia Clubs.

I own a 67 1.2 Fulvia Coupe which I've had for over 25 years, a 54 Aurelia B12 as well as a 65 Karmann Ghia Convertible and a 03 Harley Sportster whose sole purpose is to set off car alarms in the local neighborhoods.

As I have front wheel drive, rear wheel drive and rear engine drive classics I shouldn't want for anything else, yet ..........

I do my own work and maintenance except for machining and have put together a good library of Lancia in English and Italian.

I lived in Italy for ten years during the Seventies and remember some very nice cars although at that time I was more an Alfa fan than Lancia.

I'm happy to help as I have been helped by the Lancia community.

[1,6 HF]

Hey Ralph,

Welcome! It's about time you joined us here...

[Geoff]

Ralph -

Welcome. Now we can get some real activity in the Aurelia forum!

Geoff

[RdeMasi]

I'm happy I found this site.

I've been finding interesting conversations on Geoff's site about marque information/data and its diffusion as well as a great back and forth conversation here between DJ and Ed on what constitutes a club and what part the "new" Internet media can play.

As much as I'm happy to see a new growth of the Lancia virus here I feel it dilutes our efforts being that we are a somewhat member-limited group. I will now be checking this site, Huib's, UK Lancia and Geoff's, all good sites. By the way although the post-Fiat Lancia's have been disparaged in the past by pre-Fiat Lancia owners, either intentionally or not, I think it's great that they show the amount of enthusiam they do for the Beta, Scorpion ansd so on. One needs to remember that they go through the same sort of quizzical looks dealing with a public that know only Fiats (Fix It Again Tony, oh my that's hilarious, and only the one millionth time I've heard that) and Alpha Romeros (sic). Besides their cars are powered by the venerable Twin Cam, designed by Lampredi, designer of some pretty nice Ferrari engines. As I first came to the Fulvia and later learned of the Aurelia, Aprilia, Flaminia, etc there is no reason an owner will not use the Beta as an entre into the Fulvia, Appia and so forth. Also as the years pass the Integrale will start to soon make its presence more known as cars are imported so I think embracing Lancias of all types is important and I think this site does that admirably.

With all due respect to Ed, the ALC website is an abomination and should be moved to this location quickly. I think posting a notice in the next copy of Lanciana will quickly give the new location alot of Lancia-tinted eyeballs in a hurry. On the other hand I do see the value in the Lanciana newsletter and perhaps as articles are released in paper they can then be put on permanent display on the website, again in an area only accessible to those who have paid dues. Also wouldn't it be nice to have a means of paying the dues online, perhaps via Paypal or such, with the added benefit of a reminder after one year.

And finally, intuitively I feel it would be a better situation to somehow intergrate all these various efforts of websites. I realize that some of these sites might represent ad dollars for the creators and they'd be reluctant to give it up. That said perhaps other websites could be given virtual pages within this site. That way they would continue to accrue ad dollars and so forth. Huib built a great site that includes forums in different languages. I haven't checked the others but I know that the English and Italian forums are well represented although individual model forums within each may be lacking. It is crazy that questions could be asked about a Fulvia issue in English on any of three different sites, if not more.

A federation of Lancia sites would also improve the documentation and wanted/for sale situations as well. Understanding that some people rightfully make money on documentation I still think that having a single place to offer their product to the maximum number of interested eyeballs makes the most sense as well as creating an archive of the information that is in the "public domain". Same goes for the sale of items. A Lancia enthusiat in Tokyo should be able to see throughout the world what is on offer. Ebay may do that but I'm not sure it captures the market fully. Alot of the folks advertising their wares on Ebay might be willing to post items as well knowing that they have a large and interested audience.

Unless you're Robert E. Lee you don't divide your forces in the face of a superior force, so I think a consolidation of efforts will help us move forward as admirers of the marque. The Art of War also talks about partnering when faced with a superior force and I'd love to segue this into what we should be doing with FLU and the Alfa boys but my fingers are tired.

Apologies for the rant.

By the way after looking at the excellent membership roster produced by the ALC it is evident that a tiny proportion of the club participate online, people who have some very interesting cars. Is that due to snobbery, ignorance of what is on the Internet, technological-phobia, fear of the impending H1N1, I dont know but perhaps a survey is warranted in the next Lanciana.

Ralph

[1,6 HF]

...As much as I'm happy to see a new growth of the Lancia virus here I feel it dilutes our efforts being that we are a somewhat member-limited group. I will now be checking this site, Huib's, UK Lancia and Geoff's, all good sites...

With all due respect to Ed, the ALC website is an abomination and should be moved to this location quickly. I think posting a notice in the next copy of Lanciana will quickly give the new location alot of Lancia-tinted eyeballs in a hurry. On the other hand I do see the value in the Lanciana newsletter and perhaps as articles are released in paper they can then be put on permanent display on the website, again in an area only accessible to those who have paid dues. Also wouldn't it be nice to have a means of paying the dues online, perhaps via Paypal or such, with the added benefit of a reminder after one year.

And finally, intuitively I feel it would be a better situation to somehow intergrate all these various efforts of websites. I realize that some of these sites might represent ad dollars for the creators and they'd be reluctant to give it up. That said perhaps other websites could be given virtual pages within this site. ...

I confess I take a very different view of consolidating the various Lancia websites; personally I think it’s a misguided idea. First, I can state with some certainty, that consolidation has nothing to do with economics; I can’t imagine that any of these sites come anywhere near recovering their costs–let alone generate any income for their owners. No one would be giving up any income by relinquishing their site or embedding into some consolidated site. The closest model of a consolidated site is AlfaBB. But even a site that comprehensive with a membership of thousands and two levels of donation beyond free access, it doesn’t make money for the owner. And you can’t imagine the chaos and consternation on the (rare) occasions when the site is down.

For me, if dilution is a problem, it’s a very different kind of dilution. The various sites do have some overlap, but no single site could possibly maintain the depth of information that each one has individually. Geoff’s site has a depth on Aurelias that can only be sustained by his own level of interest in the model; it wouldn’t be the same if he did not control the look and feel of the site as well as the content. Lancisti is a brilliant and well-organized site, but if it were to try to sustain the entire breadth and depth of the entire Lancia world–relatively small as we are–it would quickly get out of hand; that’s simply too much for any webmaster/site host who has any other life. And that doesn’t even get at the Fulvia specialty sites like AmiciLanciaFulvia, FulviaHF, and Lancia Fulvia. I regularly monitor more than a half dozen Lancia sites (or forums within other sites). Frankly, with every site bookmarked, it doesn’t take any more effort to jump from one to the other than it would to navigate within a single mega-site. And mega-site inevitably suffer the same dumbing down that happens with mega-stores; you always end up trading away knowledge and specialized selection for one-stop convenience.

As far as the ALC site is concerned, I’ve been making exactly the same comments (and worse) for a long time now; it’s an embarrassment. There is some movement on this front. Some time ago, DJ graciously offered to host the ALC site through lancisti, and I passed this offer along to the powers that be. I’m not really involved with the web site, so I don’t know what plans are being made for hosting, but I can tell you there’s a new webmaster on board. And I have no idea of the schedule, but I understand that work is underway on completely revamping the site. It’s still an open question as to how or if Lanciana will appear on the ALC site. It would require some work on my part to reformat for the web (right now, all the digital files are on web-unfriendly oversize pages with printer’s marks and color bars). I wouldn’t want to lose Lanciana as a print document, but there’s no real technical problem to create a web-accessible PDF. It’s just an editorial question of access, and of course more leg work for me...

[Geoff]

For me, if dilution is a problem, it’s a very different kind of dilution. The various sites do have some overlap, but no single site could possibly maintain the depth of information that each one has individually. Geoff’s site has a depth on Aurelias that can only be sustained by his own level of interest in the model; it wouldn’t be the same if he did not control the look and feel of the site as well as the content. Lancisti is a brilliant and well-organized site, but if it were to try to sustain the entire breadth and depth of the entire Lancia world–relatively small as we are–it would quickly get out of hand; that’s simply too much for any webmaster/site host who has any other life. And that doesn’t even get at the Fulvia specialty sites like AmiciLanciaFulvia, FulviaHF, and Lancia Fulvia. I regularly monitor more than a half dozen Lancia sites (or forums within other sites). Frankly, with every site bookmarked, it doesn’t take any more effort to jump from one to the other than it would to navigate within a single mega-site. And mega-site inevitably suffer the same dumbing down that happens with mega-stores; you always end up trading away knowledge and specialized selection for one-stop convenience.

As far as the ALC site is concerned, I’ve been making exactly the same comments (and worse) for a long time now; it’s an embarrassment. There is some movement on this front. Some time ago, DJ graciously offered to host the ALC site through lancisti, and I passed this offer along to the powers that be. ...

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Ed here. Unfortunately because Ralph is right - consolidation would be a good thing, for all the reasons he mentioned. But the reality is that sites sometimes sprout up like weeds, and some should consolidate and some needn't. I would never have foreseen putting as much online as there is on the Aurelia if there had been any real thinking up front. It just kind of grew. I'm glad people are enjoying it.

On the other hand, I've not been too worried about the absence of a general forum or guest log on that site - while it would be nice, there are plenty of other Lancia places on the web to express thoughts; and that was never the intent of the site. Blog comments are however most welcome, as they are germaine to the issue posted.

We all know the ALC site has to be redone. Not sure who/how, but it will happen someday.

The real issue (from my view) is that there is a lot of knowledge, esp. on the older cars (Flaminia Appia Aurelia) that isn't getting on the web. For whatever reason, most of the people with that knowledge are not so happy about sharing it freely. Not sure why - could be their interests just lie elsewhere. But that (for me) is a more critical issue than centralizing the number of forums.

Ralph's point is a good one - you can't easily have a club with small numbers, nor a piece of history with 5 different forums. Probably would be better to consolidate the clubs, but again, if you combined the ALC with the British club, we'd lose Ed and Don's wonderful Lanciana, which we don't want to be without.

I'd figure this is a low cost decentralized way of touching base, and maybe leave it at that. Now.... if we could only centralize parts internationally.....

Geoff

[1,6 HF]

...The real issue (from my view) is that there is a lot of knowledge, esp. on the older cars (Flaminia Appia Aurelia) that isn't getting on the web. For whatever reason, most of the people with that knowledge are not so happy about sharing it freely. Not sure why - could be their interests just lie elsewhere. But that (for me) is a more critical issue than centralizing the number of forums.

Ralph's point is a good one - you can't easily have a club with small numbers, nor a piece of history with 5 different forums. Probably would be better to consolidate the clubs, but again, if you combined the ALC with the British club, we'd lose Ed and Don's wonderful Lanciana, which we don't want to be without.

I'd figure this is a low cost decentralized way of touching base, and maybe leave it at that. Now.... if we could only centralize parts internationally.....

Interesting points. I suspect that Ralph's observation about the small percentage of ALC members in the online forums is not unrelated to Geoff's observation that Aurelias, Appias, and Flaminias account for very little of the online content. I would venture that, at least in the US, the older cars tend to be owned by the older members, who tend to be the least web-savvy and the least dependent on the web for information and/or advice.

Again at the risk of being contrarian, I think there's never been a time when a small club has been more viable than it is now. While there's no real substitute for physically getting together, driving, and admiring one another's cars, in the US, only the very largest marque clubs can get a substantial number of members to a single, centralized annual event. (Even if the ALC had 1000 members, it would be logistically tough to put together a single, annual reunion meeting.) But that same splintered, unconsolidated web still makes it possible to communicate and exchange information and ideas, as we are right here.

Even without the issue of Lanciana, I cannot imagine ever consolidating the ALC and the LMC-UK. For one thing, that would make the annual meeting even tougher to get to for one side of the pond or the other. And, with all due respect to our British brethren, while I envy them their membership numbers, I don't envy their internal politics, something the ALC is blissfully free of. Frankly, I think any such talk is merely a shameless attempt to rationalize an RHD S2 B20...

Finally, internationally centralized spares? Seriously? Too much competition among the myriad sources now?

[Geoff]

Ha!

[ncundy]

And, with all due respect to our British brethren, while I envy them their membership numbers, I don't envy their internal politics, something the ALC is blissfully free of.

Wise words indeed.

[RdeMasi]

I'm always happy to throw in a hand grenade to stimulate discussion.

To clarify my postion about a single website I meant that the individual creators would still keep control of what is posted just that they'd be located in a single place. As I said they are each great sites on their own, each with it's own persolnality. But your comment that you could easily move between sites is certainly true.

Perhaps what I am advocating is a greater involvement or information flow between sites. I think that's what all my blabbing was really about. Are we using the Internet to it's best use. Following Geoff's comment there is a lot of information out there, some which maybe on the Internet, alot which is not and perhaps should be. Or is the thrill of the chase part of the experience? I don't know but it's good to discuss it.

To put all the cards on the table I've never run a website, and I've never attended a meet on the East Coast so how much street cred do I bring to the arguement?

Maybe a good start is to catalog links that do lead to the known sites of particular model information on the web. Blogs are good for " oh my car won't idle" but how many times can someone ask what are the fanbelt equinvalents. Other websites such as the Samba site for VWs has "sticky" for oft-requested items.

Ed you mentioned some Fulvia sites that I never heard of that I will be exploring for one. Also I remember the old Lanciana newsletter having some good articles. What is involved in getting some of those on the web? That may be a halfhearted volunteer on my part - take advantage.

Now about that public option.....................

[Geoff]

Ralph -

Try this link, on my site under "info on the web". It was made just for this reason:

http://web.me.com/geoffreyg/Cars/The_web.html

Geoff

[RdeMasi]

Geoff,

Thanks, that's a good start

Ralph

[DJ]

Ralph -

Try this link, on my site under "info on the web". It was made just for this reason:

http://web.me.com/geoffreyg/Cars/The_web.html

Geoff

Geoff,

I really appreciate you including a link to Lancisti on your nice site. I'm puzzled, though as to how it's become the "T. Balon forum". :scratch: Tom was one of my moderators when I first started the forums but he hasn't been around here in some time.

Not clear on your link categorization strategy but I would have thought that we and the ALC would qualify for more than just "Related Interests". ;)

I've been meaning to mention to tell you that I would love to have all of you wonderful documentation also available here in the Lancisti Library if you're willing to share. You could upload yourself or I could grab it from your site and post it here.

[DJ]

Maybe a good start is to catalog links that do lead to the known sites of particular model information on the web.

Ralph, I've been intending to add a "Links" module back to the site ever since I migrated to the new portal and forum software a long while back. Unfortunately, I never found one that I liked and it just hasn't made it to the top of my list. I'm hoping that the new portal built into the next version of vBulletin will include that functionality. If, not, I'll find a way to make it work here because I see it as an important function of a site like Lancisti.


Other websites such as the Samba site for VWs has "sticky" for oft-requested items.

We can actually do that here but it's entirely up to me to do so because we've not been able to get many volunteers to be moderators here. Perhaps I need to put out the call again. Unfortunately, my time has been really short in the last several months because the wonderful lady in my life insists that I maintain paycheck continuity. :(


Also I remember the old Lanciana newsletter having some good articles. What is involved in getting some of those on the web?

There are many ways to do this. Could be as simple as scanning and uploading into the downloads section or more involved by adding a module that allows our users to write and submit articles online. That's part of my long term plans but there's that time available thing again...


That may be a halfhearted volunteer on my part - take advantage.

Can I interest you (or anyone else) in a Lancisti Moderator position?

[1,6 HF]

... Also I remember the old Lanciana newsletter having some good articles. What is involved in getting some of those on the web? That may be a halfhearted volunteer on my part - take advantage...

I can't speak about the old Lanciana, but post #5 does address the new Lanciana...

[Geoff]

Geoff,

I really appreciate you including a link to Lancisti on your nice site. I'm puzzled, though as to how it's become the "T. Balon forum". :scratch: Tom was one of my moderators when I first started the forums but he hasn't been around here in some time.

Not clear on your link categorization strategy but I would have thought that we and the ALC would qualify for more than just "Related Interests". ;)

I've been meaning to mention to tell you that I would love to have all of you wonderful documentation also available here in the Lancisti Library if you're willing to share. You could upload yourself or I could grab it from your site and post it here.

DJ -

Mea culpa. A few thoughts: when this link was done, I thought incorrectly Tom started your site. I'll correct that. Also, its related, because its Lancia focus but not Aurelia driven. Given that there is probably enough Aurelia interest for 1/2 of a site outside of Italy, that criteria might have to be relaxed. Let me make some corrections soon, and see what you think. Let me know if it isn't right.

As to some of the documentation.... I've been going through whole bunches of back and forth debates on documentation and availability. That's food for another conversation, but it will need to be addressed somehow. As I am knee, waist, and shoulder deep in early 1950's material for work on De Virgilio, some of that has taken a bit of a back burner for the moment.

First to do are the corrections!

Keep up the good work with your site.

Geoff

[NetEnforcer]

Welcome Ralph!

I was more of an Alfa fan too, but my Dedra is changing my mind a bit :D

:cheers: