HPE I.E. Sump

[Andrew S]

Hi all,
I've just bought an '83 2L Injection HPE. It's a beauty and I plan to use it as my daily driver. I planned to change the oil today as it's the first thing I do with any new purchase along with changing the cambelt. However!!! It wasn't to be- the sump plug just will not budge! It has been internally rounded off by the previous owner and showed signs of a chisel being used to tighten it! So the 12mm drain plug key I have just does nothing. No-one seems to make a 13mm key which is a shame because I think one could easily be 'persuaded' to fit. So it looks like I'm gonna have to remove the sump pan to attempt removal of the plug on my bench. I have a spare sump pan with an intact plug to replace it if I need to. My question is: Has anyone on here removed the sump on a Beta with the engine in situ? Haynes says it's possible but their description of the job doesn't make for pleasant reading...

Andrew.

[John Allen]

you may be able to use an American sized hex - 1/2" (12.7mm) to get enough bite on it.

You may also try to use a bolt head (poundinto the hex recess) and then use a pipe wrench or vicegrips to turn the bolt via the threaded shank.

[davidb]

I used a 10" offset [handle] plumbing pipe wrench, getting a good
bite on what little threads were exposed. Obviously replace the
plug w/a std hex head plug. You may wish to do the the gearbox/
tranny plugs too. Do your utmost to avoid dropping that pan.

[Andrew S]

Tried the bolt head method but it didn't work- I'll retry using the bolt with a nut welded to it I think. I also tried the wrench method, gripping the exposed threads but it just chewed it up. It's as though the plug's welded in! I've never known a sump plug to be so tight it's crazy...
I know what you mean about avoiding dropping the pan... so much other stuff to do just to gain access to remove it... PITA! At least the car's new enough to me to still love it...

Andrew.

[davidb]

Andrew as a last resort/desperation measure you might try this.
Grind down a chisel tip, tapered to approximate the female
"insert" portion of the drain plug, the hexes. Tap the chisel tip
in carefully lest you dent the pan. Obviously you will need a
really good bite before you attempt to turn the chisel shaft. I'm
@ wits end to help more. I've only barely, BARELY been able to
remove some of mine over the years. Good luck!

[Jim Fierst]

Here is another "desperate '' possibility. Since you have a hex center get the biggest" easy out" that will fit in the hex then drill the hole size for it through the hex into the pan. Easy outs here in the US for right hand threads are threaded into the part to be removed in the left hand direction so as the easy out tightens it is trying to unthread the plug. Try every thing possible as removing the pan will be a nightmare.

[Jim Keller]

And here's a method I use a lot, take your air chisle and carefully hit the outer edge of the plug in the direction of removal, that step has saved me LOTs of frustration over time, it'll walk out just about any size nut or plug type if you can get a good enough bite on the edge of whats left.

Pick up a drain plug for a Fiat Spider 2000 if you can not find a Lancia one, only diff is generally hex vers torques type wrench needed. I also got as plug from a oil change place once that had a normal bolt head for one of my Lancia Betas

[Andrew S]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys but it ain't shiftin! I'm going to drop it down to my local mechanic's workshop tomorrow and let him have a go... last resort time... if he fails it's off with the sump I'm afraid. I've even thought of not bothering with the plug and changing the oil with one of those suction pump things but I don't really trust them. They just can't be as efficient as gravity, can they? I'm just thinking that the car has only had two previous owners- one from new until two years ago, and I have no idea when the plug became immovable. If the oil hasn't been changed for a few years there could be a build up of sludge/crap etc. Will a suction device really shift all of it...? I doubt it. Unless you guys can tell me otherwise from experience. I must admit I do like the idea of a very simple, clean no mess oil change but my experience of life is that the easy way is usually not the most efficient way...

Andrew.

[SubGothius]

If all else fails, you can just siphon out the oil via the dipstick tube. I've read some quick-lube places and even dealerships will actually use this method routinely, and this method has been used for marine applications where the sump may not be fitted with a drain plug at all. Pela pumps (http://www.pelaproducts.com/) seem to have a good reputation from what I've seen.

I have the same problem with a seized drain plug and have been making do with a cheap $20 oil extractor rig from Harbor Freight (hm, which doesn't seem to be available anymore); it takes a bit of supplementary pumping in progress to keep things moving, but it does the job eventually, although I did replace the original flimsy tubing that goes down the dipstick hole with a length of gear cable housing from a 3-speed bicycle.

[Andrew S]

Well, I took it down to my local friendly mechanic (only 1/2 mile down the road) and left it with him. He brought it back a few hours later- job done! Took '10 minutes' apparently... Smart ass. No charge either. Top guy! Anyway, oil changed after a thorough cleansing through with 'Flush Out' and now full of Fiat Auto's finest synthetic 20/50. Timing belt & tensioner next job. The car was so cheap to buy I might as well pamper it...

Andrew.

[Jim Keller]

Ooooooooh!
Don't run synthedic, she'll just likely leak from every weak gasket and seal, BTDT, stuffs too thin and weeps easily with old seals and gaskets, flows great for the motor but doesn't do well with old seals and gaskets, so if you start seeing oil leaks, don't panic, just go back to the old standard stuff. My good Zagato had 98K on it when I bought it and 127K when I sold it, I ran Penzoil 20/40 weight oil in that one with no leaks, tried Mobile 1 synthedic once and got a couple leaks on the garage floor, changed back to 20/40 regular dinosaur oil and leaks went away

How did he get the plug out? weld on a nut? LOL

[Andrew S]

How did he get the plug out? weld on a nut? LOL

He was busy so he didn't go into detail; just said it was well and truly fu££ed by the time it gave way... Lol.
Comments noted about the synthetic- I have heard this before so I'll keep an eye on it. It was an unopened can that came with the car along with a genuine Lancia oil filter so I just made use of them. It's 20/50, not thin stuff so we'll see.

Andrew.