Coil Springs

[davidb]

Yes it's me again re: my coal cart ride in my running '82 LBZ.
This car had 40K miles on it, springs had surface rust, all clean.
New struts & the rubber pads are okay. I'm getting to point where
I suspect either the upper rubber shock tower rubbers are shot
or perchance the springs themselves. I have an ancient factory
manual that indicates those two as likely culprits. BetaBoyz is
soon to make rear upper strut rubbers but no fronts. They have
new, lowered springs which I assume will make the car's ride
more harsh. I'm @ wits end w/this clunky suspension. Help !

[KeppelmanJ]

Ok, David, I hear your pain! I just measured the front end of my car for comparison. Ride height is 25 3/4" from the ground to the top of the arches. Spring wire size is .537" and there are 4 coils in space on the outside of the strut. They're about 1 1/4" center to center. Tires are 185/65 w/ 30 lbs pressure. Seems to me you either have stiffer springs or compression on your struts is very stiff. Maybe rebound is stiff. If the springs seem correct for the car I'd be looking for replacement struts. The springs and shocks are the main sources of the compliance you're looking for.

[DJ]

It also sounds to me like your struts may be way too stiff.

Is it the front that's harsh or the rear? Or both?

Are your strut housing rebuildable? If they are just get yourself some of the Rabbit KYB inserts for the fronts. My strut research happens to have shown that they can be bolted directly into the front Beta tubes with no other mods required other than maybe having to drill out the the top cone washers to fit the shaft and maybe a centering ring in the base of the tube. I'd have to play with them a bit more to be sure about those two things.

They can be had for about $40 apiece at most and well less if you look around. There is supposedly another KYB insert that fits the rear but I didn't have one of those on hand to try when I had the Beta struts on loan. But even the same insert would also easily fit the rear if you make up a spacer for the bottom of the tube.

[KeppelmanJ]

DJ, what year Rabbit are you thinking of? I'm curious how similar the damping rates would be. I know the OEM late Beta struts don't open like the early ones. You'd have to start with an early set or adapt the late models for a screw-in top.

[DJ]

It's the KYB GR-2 cartridge PN 361005. Fits front of 1984-1993 VW Rabbit.

These have been used quite a lot to rebuild front and back on the X1/9 and some folks have used them to do Scorpion struts as well. I've been experimenting with them and some other inserts to determine solutions for the Scorpion.

The rod extension/stroke is a bit more than the stock Beta (and Scorpion) strut but I can't see where that would cause any problems. The rod extension at full compression is essentially the same as stock.

I've no idea what the damping rates are. I've never been able to find any useable info on that, nor anything on differences in front and back. From what I've been able to determine (qualitatively), they are very close to the same if not the same.

[davidb]

Hmmm? My 195/60-14 tires yield a ground to arch distance 25" front,
24 1/2" rear. Coil gaps in front springs are 1/2". Rear dunno. Front
struts are new WAY-ASSAUTO, new rears dunno. Rebuildable dunno.
All 4 strut/spring assemblies HAVE been removed recently & cycled
on a spring compressor up/down, seemed okay. Front "A" arms &
all rear link bushings new. After 1K mi. on the road things should
have bedded in. Put in new KYB inserts in NOS struts? Gosh & ouch!
Handling/ride on the hwy feels okay. Clunky ride occurs on rough
urban streets & brother do I mean CLUNKY [= coal cart]. Feels like
live beam axles front & rear in an old Army surplus WW2 Jeep. I know
rubber can age/fail [e.g. upper strut rubber buffers] but I thought coil
springs don't. Well unless you're driving "Bigfoot". Sure wish I had a
REAL Lancia mechanic local. Hate this guessing & clogging the forum.
P.S.: those tires are @ 28 PSI.

[1,6 HF]

... I know
rubber can age/fail [e.g. upper strut rubber buffers] but I thought coil
springs don't. Well unless you're driving "Bigfoot". Sure wish I had a
REAL Lancia mechanic local. Hate this guessing & clogging the forum.
P.S.: those tires are @ 28 PSI.

I'd say it's extremely unlikely that it's the stock springs somehow gone brittle/stiff--never heard of that. And it's also unlikely to be the tires, the sidewall height on the 60-series tires isn't lower than the original size, and 28psi isn't a lot of pressure.

If it's OK on thehighway but awful on a bad road, where the shocks are cycling quickly, it does sound like the dampers. It may be that they're not soft enough on jounce or not stiff enough on rebound or for whatever reason they're not the correct spec and don't have the proper travel.

Having just replaced the struts, I hate to say spend more money on KYBs. But if the WAY-ASSAUTO are conventional shocks, the change to gas pressure shocks would probably help a lot.

[DJ]

Put in new KYB inserts in NOS struts? Gosh & ouch!

Sorry. Thought you were looking for suggestions/options.

I'm pretty sure the WAY ASSAUTOs aren't rebuildable anyway.

Is it just the front or rear or both? When you say clunky, to me that sounds like you means they are making noise. Does something sound loose?

When you installed the A-arm bushings did you torque them down with weight on the car or was the suspension in droop at the time?

[KeppelmanJ]

DJ's question about torquing the A-arm pivots seems a good one. If not that, I'd look at the compression and rebound on the struts. I'm going to see a very knowledgeable Boeing engineer this afternoon and I'll ask if there's a practical way to test the strut action. I have a NOS pair and maybe we could compare. Short of that, I guess substituting a VW (or other useable) application strut from the same weight car, front and back, would be as close as one could get to stock. I don't know though. The italian ride is sexier than the german....

[Will]

To test the struts you remove the springs and throw them on a shock dyno. I would check everything for tightness especially the strut top to make sure it is firmly seated- if you can push down on the car and the strut top moves away from the top mount, it is either loose or you puched through the mount. This will give you the exact symptoms you descibe- a nasty rattle!

[davidb]

Thanks all. Will the top nut w/piston tip doesn't move thru the
rubber when I literally sit on the engine. D.J. I'd be willing to
put in new inserts but as Ed said kind of an extreme idea w/
NOS struts [until I've isolated the issue]. That 19mm "A" arm
thru bolt/nut I did initially tighten @ full droop. W/o benefit of
a lift I did loosen them a tad, tires on the ground thereafter.
Torqued no. A Di Fatta bro. I spoke w/advised me to remove
the strut/spring assemblies & cycle them as I did. Something
about lying on a shelf, on their side for years, oil moves around,
valving gets messed up. Maybe Will has a thought about some
more aggressive piston test. To Ed again, I couldn't feature the
coil springs being bad either. I'm not as knowledgeable as most
members are. I rely upon root insight/intuition/seat-of-the-pants
on things like this. I smell a rat w/the hydraulics of the NOS struts
[inserts] and/or ancient [hardened] upper strut rubbers. Thanks ...

[DJ]

That 19mm "A" arm
thru bolt/nut I did initially tighten @ full droop.

Then that's the absolute first thing I would do. It should be TORQUED with weight on the wheels AND with weight in the front seats to approximate passengers.

Put it up on stands on the back and on ramps under the front wheels. Then have a couple of people sit in the seats while you crawl under and torque each bolt to spec.

If your top strut mounts are really old and hard as you indicate, I'd be finding a set of those ASAP, too.

[1,6 HF]

Then that's the absolute first thing I would do. It should be TORQUED with weight on the wheels AND with weight in the front seats to approximate passengers....

+1

[Will]

Thanks all. Will the top nut w/piston tip doesn't move thru the
rubber when I literally sit on the engine. D.J. I'd be willing to
put in new inserts but as Ed said kind of an extreme idea w/
NOS struts [until I've isolated the issue]. That 19mm "A" arm
thru bolt/nut I did initially tighten @ full droop. W/o benefit of
a lift I did loosen them a tad, tires on the ground thereafter.
Torqued no. A Di Fatta bro. I spoke w/advised me to remove
the strut/spring assemblies & cycle them as I did. Something
about lying on a shelf, on their side for years, oil moves around,
valving gets messed up. Maybe Will has a thought about some
more aggressive piston test. To Ed again, I couldn't feature the
coil springs being bad either. I'm not as knowledgeable as most
members are. I rely upon root insight/intuition/seat-of-the-pants
on things like this. I smell a rat w/the hydraulics of the NOS struts
[inserts] and/or ancient [hardened] upper strut rubbers. Thanks ...

Yeah you need to pump the strut full stroke several times to fill it with oil- but that should not produce a ratttle. I assume that you jacked each wheel off the ground and tried to wobble it to see if you've got a loose tie rod end or something going on? The other thing I can think of that can make a nasty rattle is a missing sway bar bush- are they all accounted for and are the brackets tight?

A arm bushes that are tightened in the wrong position AFAIK tend to squaeak- not rattle. Unless they are loose altogether.

[Jim Keller]

Rattle? hum.......I had an elusive rattle in my front suspension of my good Zagato for a few years, couldn't find anything wrong after several detailed inspections of suspension componants, (was pulling my hair out trying to find the problem), then I installed a set of Koni's and found my rattle, the nylon centering bushing in the upper strut mount was broken allowing the top of the strut and strut mount bearing to move around a bunch and rattle.