Eurospec Vs.USA model horse power

[Jim Fierst]

Based on Rosocorso's response to my Beta upgrade to FI that Eurospec 2l FI engines were rated atr 122 HP while US version was rated at 105. While I have nothng to base it on I would bet a large part of it came from compression ratio. US was only 8 to1 while I would wager Euro was 9.8 to 1 . Would that get the 17 horse power ?? Add a more agressive cam and you are there. I don't they would have to change the FI at all.. Who knows the answer to this??

[KeppelmanJ]

I'm in the process of doing this myself to an '81 US spec coupe. Substituting an 1800 head gives the compression boost and putting euro cam wheels/pulleys on the stock cams duplicates the euro cam timing. Cams were the same. Timing was retarded for the US models. I even suspect that any pulley you can buy now (even in the US) is euro spec. I doubt if the factory ever made replacement parts for the US cars.

[Jim Fierst]

I am confused?? How does advancing the cam wheels buy you anything.??Sure you can open things sooner but you also close them sooner. The lift and duration remain the same. The overlap may change depending on how much you do each cam.

[Allen Lofland]

Yep, seems like lots of peole think these things but few prove it. I would love to SEE the different cams and cam wheels we are talking about.

[KeppelmanJ]

I have not had the euro cams in hand to compare them myself, but I get this piece of advice from John Stuckey, a friend and great mechanic who had a business in Phoenix (IMM) working on Italian exotics, betas in particular and this was a standard fix. Another guy, Steve Snyder in Sunnyvale, had a jig for redrilling the US pulleys to the same effect. I believe John compared the specs on the US and euro cams. He has a VX and 037 which he maintains.

[rossocorsa]

I have both euro and us spec microfiche somewhere if i find time I'll have a look and see if the cams etc are the same part numbers or not

[rossocorsa]

...also raises the question as to whether the euro injection has a different ecu or not I'd assumed that it does but maybe not....

[KeppelmanJ]

Good plan, Alan. Don't know if that's conclusive, but it's a good start. Let us know.

[Jim Fierst]

Mr. Keppleman.. You use the words cams and cam wheels interchangibly.. Are you changinq out both ?? Or are you just changing the cams or are you just redrilling the wheels and retiming stock cams.?

Was this retimed cam wheels set up ever run on any one's Dyno???

Also the FI hLancias had the largest ports stock and probably the best flow with the open chamber design of the 2L heads.Conversly the 1800 was smaller ports and shrouded valves.While you will get about 1/2 a point compression increase wiyth the 1800 head you may lose more than you gain thru poorer flow. Just conjecture on my part.

[Allen Lofland]

First let me say I am not aurgueing abut this simply stateing FACTS or Personal opinion and I will note the difference :
Fact: the Guy Croft Book we all know and love written by Guy Croft stated that the Euro 1608 Fiat TC engine has a better performance cam than the US North American cam..Fact is ..They are the same. Guy Croft says he was quoteing some one else :(
Fact. I have heard all sorts of stories about cams and wheels that are different but when they are obtained and measured, the story seems to melt away into oblivion :) There is an old American Saying "I'm from Missouri " which meens,,,,I will beleive it when I see it as there have been to many claims and to few with proof :) If you find the proof we will honor you with great acclaim and acclimations :)

[rossocorsa]

the cams and cogs use the same part numbers on both versions so must be the same europe and usa

[Allen Lofland]

Your numbers are correct However there are parts numbers that are different and the cams are the same. I own a set that have different part numbers and they have been measured and are the same. You can not go by part numbers cast into a cam. The numbers where cast before the cam was ground :( We have found this to be a very confusing issue sometimes. If you want to know what a particular cam is, You must measure it. Even Crane and other cam manufactureres will tell you this...

[rossocorsa]

Your numbers are correct However there are parts numbers that are different and the cams are the same. I own a set that have different part numbers and they have been measured and are the same. You can not go by part numbers cast into a cam. The numbers where cast before the cam was ground :( We have found this to be a very confusing issue sometimes. If you want to know what a particular cam is, You must measure it. Even Crane and other cam manufactureres will tell you this...

this is from the parts microfiche so is conclusive I agree that between different models of fiat/lancia you could find different numbers that share the same profiles so if the numbers had differed it wouldn't have been so positive. I will check the ECU part numbers next I suspect that these will differ.

[rossocorsa]

....this is for injection cars only incidentally i think the earlier cars (at least 1800s) used different cams from europe

[KeppelmanJ]

Alan, by "cogs" do you mean pulleys? Generally, these are going to be tough distinctions to make as we are dealing with folklore, rather than hard facts. Or at least, as latterday Beta owners, we are long past the heyday of these cars when they were being manufactured and eagerly modified by new owners. There is little after market stuff, at least in the US, to make comparisons with now. That and very few of the cars turn up at club events. I recall (I'm editor of the ALC rag, Lanciana) that one of the early mods of the 1800 cars was using the 1608 Fiat cams. I guess we defer to some authority we trust (I'll call Stuckey tonight) or wait until we somehow have the various cams (and pulleys) in hand ourselves and compare them. I will shortly have a pair of euro pulleys in hand to compare with the ones which come off my car. That should be easy as they can be laid one against another. Since I'm doing this switch in the car I hadn't planned to get down to the crank where I'd put a degree wheel.

[KeppelmanJ]

Jim, your questions: Sorry if I created conlfusion. I'm changing heads and cam wheels/pulleys in the supposition that the cams are euro as it is. I did put 40-80s (from Bayless) in a 77 HPE years ago and was very unhappy with that. Less low end grunt and too peaky. I did it later to a Scorpion 2 liter conversion (International Autosport) and was happier. Regarding to your thought that the ports between the heads are different, that's news to me. I'll check. Perhaps some port matching will be in order. So far the 2 liter head is still on the running car and the 1800 head is at the machinist.

[rossocorsa]

yes by cogs I meant pulleys I'm just to lazy with my typing for long words! the parts fiche is quite conclusive that the cams and pulleys are the same on injection cars both sides of the water. I'm fairly sure i checked the timing spec issued by lancia a while back and that also gave identical figures for both. I'm fairly sure that earlier cars did use different cams though.

[Jim Fierst]

:D I love it.. Allen searched the world far and wide for the mythical 1608 Euro cams and the Vahalla of 7500 RPM... He found some documented ones in a far off place down under. Once acquired and measured they were found to be EXACTLY the same as the standard USA cams..From whence came the Guy Croft quote "I was quoting some one else's comment about 1608cams...Another Fiat legend.

I still want some one to define for me how advancing the cam timing buys you anything where the duration of the cycle does not change.
No guru's names ,some one told me's or any of the rest of the bat guano.
Tell me, I am all ears and currently pumping close to 150 horsepower out of the Turbo Spider..This Fiat? lancia myth ought to be worth 10 to 15 more.."Man I gotsa to know"..

[Jim Fierst]

Reguarding Cams.. One of the worst mistakes we Fiat and Lancia owners make is installing big exhaust cams. The best way to go is real compression first with pistons, then a 40/80 or so on the intake with a STOCK exhaust with carbs of FI.. Dyno tests by one of the good Amerivcan Fiat houses have proven that big exhauts cams are really worthless for the street(too much overlap and spit back,bottom end loss) and only work on the track. I used this guideline in my built 1800 Scorpion and I can tell you it was the way to go. Ask Allen .

[KeppelmanJ]

Ok, Jim, I'll take a stab at your question about the timing of Beta cams. I've been preoccupied with a Fulvia and haven't thought about this for ages, but I think that the euro cam holes (from our perspective) advanced the intake 1/2 tooth and retarded the exhaust 1/2 tooth for a 15 degree change (7 1/2 degrees for each hole move). I don't recall how many teeth there are in the pulleys but I think each tooth was 15 degrees. Must have been 24 teeth. The purpose was to cut back on nitrous oxide emissions.

[Will]

John:
Go to the photos ection, Will Holding's album (last page) and look in the cam profiles album- the cam plots there should answer your questions.

ALL FIAT/Lancia normally aspirated engines' cams that I have ever found share a common lift integral, you can look up the relative timing by referencing the lobe center against the timing spec chart for each model, and you will occasionally find a timing difference.

Case in point: The Scorpion, which uses a 6 degree or so retard on the intake cam. I think the Monte does NOT, and correcting this six degree retardation of the intake puts the lobe centers where they are on the other FIAT products.

I suspect the retard on the intake is due to US emissions or the single-plane intake, in any case, bumping up the intake to normal spec is the first thing I'd undertake (works out to about half a tooth, which is why you need to redrill the dowel hole unless you have adjustable wheels)

I measured and degreed many cams, because I found some discrepancies in Croft's book, and there was so much wild conjecture. In the process, a lot of things were cleared up, but then nobody references the results, even though I made them available for free. Guess I should have charged 65 pounds sterling, then people would bother reading it!

BTW: I read both your and Keppelman's theories on bump steer and your front suspension truss for the Scorpion years ago in an old copy of Lanciana. Glad to know you guys are still around, welcome.

-Will

[Will]

...forgort to mention on the original post topic, Euro vs. US fuel injection systems are identical. The FI system is airflow based, horsepower changes are due to VE and compression, don't forget US spec cars are breathing through a cat.

-Will

[arc]

I haven't bothered reading all the replies but my understanding is that the lower horse power is based on us emission laws. eg the use of catalytic converters and yes a lower compression ratio etc. It must have been those wasteful years of steel hogging petrol/oil guzzling yanky tanks that caused that. By the way what's your 'gas' price at moment. Here it has rocketed to AU$107.5 and projected to be $3 in six years. I suppose we'll have to drill that little coral reef off the Queensland coast. :D

[Allen Lofland]

Yep, Chrome baby,,,If Lancia had Chromed those bumpers back in 76 the US would have bought loads of then :) just kidden.....Gas right now is at $1.90 for 91 octane in Wichita Kansas, just recently paid $2.15 US in Colrado Mountains for 91 octane :( If it gets much higher the people will start revolting,,,pictch forks and spears hehe.

[Hamish]

Chaps,
Been flicking through this thread now that I have my copy of Guy Crofts book back from long term loan.... I've quoted from Jims post (as it was the most recent to mention GC) but it falls back to Allens post regarding the following line about 1608 cams:

..From whence came the Guy Croft quote "I was quoting some one else's comment about 1608cams..."
I can't find that in the book - where'd that quote come from :?: if it wasn't in the book and if it isn't a documented quote can it be attributed to GC :?:
Having been misquoted myself in the past (by the press :evil: - who else :?: ) I'm keen to ensure there aren't any 'mistakes' made here :wink:
BTW, it was another forum member who tipped me off about this, just in case anyone was wondering...... 8)

[Allen Lofland]

Guy Croft has been in conversation about this and other things for some time, on the Mira Forum and other places. When asked about the 1608 Euro Cam claim to fame his responce was what I posted. I dont remember exactly where it was posted BUT since Guy Croft is still availabe why dont you ask him.
Hamish. Guy Croft is still alive an well, he can respond if he wants. There has been no negative comment from me or any one else in the thread. Lighten up :)

[Hamish]

I dont remember exactly where it was posted BUT since Guy Croft is still availabe why dont you ask him.

No worries Allen, I will ask him :wink: as no-one likes to be mis-quoted or taken out of context on any subject. Be interesting to find out exactly where that quote comes from - although I appreciate the chances of finding it are somewhat remote :?:


Hamish. Guy Croft is still alive an well, he can respond if he wants. There has been no negative comment from me or any one else in the thread. Lighten up :)

Jings :!: I didn't realise I was being needlessly heavy handed 8O I'll go and take some lessons on how to 'lighten up' :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Will]

...the real story, if you really want to know: (longish)

Croft was called on the 1608 cam issue on the Mirafiori forum. To date, he has never conceded (that I'm aware of) that there are any errors in his book, and flatly refused to publish an addendum to his book that identifies errors or omissions. I've practically begged him to do so, as since his book is considered the "bible" by many, it is IMHO imperative that the information contained therein be as accurate as possible.
This has been a real sore spot between Guy and me, and I have backed off pursuing the matter, although it troubles me when I continue to see incorrect oand/or erroneous things. For example- his web site has a lot of pictures of "037" heads- a cursory look shows they are 8v heads, how many 037's had 8 valve heads?. If it were indeed a mistake, I would have thought that after being advised of the error he would have corrected it, but apparently Guy and I see things differently.

Anyway, the story on the "Euro 1608" cams was that Guy defended the numbers by saying it was a direct quote from FIAT, i.e. FIAT's numbers.

Now, to complicate things- those ARE the correct numbers, but what Guy failed to rerealize was that FIAT had measured them with a lower than normal checking clearance. When corrected to the standard checking clearance that FIAT normally uses, you'll see the duration of the cams matches the others. You can see this on the graph.

I degreed and plotted both sets, and later another FIATisti pointed me to a notation in the Chilton #6734 manual for FIAT that appears as a footnote. It indicated the change in checking clearance.

After Guy's assertion that your engine will "destroy itself in short order " with the use of unleaded fuels without his "unleaded fuel conversion", despite the fact we have been running unleaded in our FIATs over here for 20+ years and have never had even one documented case of valve recession in thousands of FIATS, I often wonder whether his allegiance is to the dissemination of information to the FIAT community or more towards self-promotion.

It would certainly not hurt my opinion of Guy, in fact, I would think much more of him, if he at least posted on his website a list of things in the book that were erroneous. Nobody is expecting him to be infallible, and I'd rather have the right information a bit late than not at all.
Heck, we are all computer users, how many "critical IE updates" have you downloaded? Imagine what would happen if Microsoft simply denied the problem and thought they were saving face doing so?

If the other members of the FIAT community put a little pressure on Guy, maybe he can be convinced to make available an addendum. I offered to start one, but I got threatened with a lawsuit. I think he attributed it to some kind of personal attack, which it's not. I'd just like to see the correct information available to everybody, and I think there are some other FIATisti and Lancisti that share that view. Maybe some of you can email him and make it happen.

-Will

[Allen Lofland]

That's right, that is what this is all about. Some one want s more varooooom from their Fiat Engine is to CHEAP to pay for the HC pistons and the machine work and thinks a set of cheap cams from another parts car will give it to him...When we tell him the truth he wants to Sqeal like a cut pig...
Truth is thruth,,,,just playing around with the cams on a stock fiat that already has a set of GOOD FACTORY cams in it will not get you much......You have to PAY to PLAY and I for one am tired of all this CAM bashing :) take this as a friendly rant not a complaint about anybody particular,,,,GUYS, If you want to improve your performance, YOU have to increase the compression and that is what Fiat and Lancia did, what makes you think you can do it any better :)
Get a life, get a set of HC pistons and then get a set of Billet Cams and have some fun :)

[Guy Croft]

I will certainly NOT be publishing a list of errata, no author does this on out-of print books. The place for corrections would be 2nd edition and there are no present plans for that.

If there are mistakes in the book and website, c'est la vie, everyone makes mistakes. On the whole I am told there is more good than bad in both.

Guy Croft

[Allen Lofland]

Amen to that Guy, we ALL appreciate your efforts and your book. That book is known as the bible of the Fiat twin cam . If some one thinks they can improve on it, they should right a book of their own :)
Thanks for being there Guy........

[FiatFactory]

gc got it mostly correct, aside from the glaring error of quoting 26/66 @ 0.80mm check clearance (should be 0.50mm check clearance) for the 1608 125bc.000 engine, but he has noted that when all checked at 0.45mm there IS a valve open timing duration variation across different cams, he has also noted that there IS some valve lift variation amongst models as well.. BUT he has also left some info out.

Rather than looking thru masses of Fiat parts fiches for answers, I thought it best to initially go straight to the source, the cam manufacturer.
Pittatore makes camshafts, nothing else. They make them for Fiat, Alfa,OM, Iveco etc... it's quite a large factory.
They also make nitrided steel cams for people like Alquati.

Pittatore list 6 different camshafts for Fiat twincam engines, these are all "wide" lobe type cams (these appeared mid 72? onwards) prior to these (and now no longer in production as a cast iron replacement) the cam lobe was "narrow" so all told there are a few more than "they are all the same" (we are talking 8V regular direction flow, naturally aspirated factory engines) and my info is only (mostly) complete up to mid 1987 when Fiat withdrew from the Australian market...

Back when "Noah was a lad" and well before the "Bible" was written.... the Fiat twin cam underwent a few design changes...so for the sake of complete accuracy we should include these cams also. The change involved an increase in the size of the bolt that affixes the cam driven gears.

Originally this bolt was 17mm head, a 10 x 1.25 thread pitch, the driven gears were different as the hole was smaller (only 10.7mm in dia) at change "3296" (up to / from engine # 65707/8 coupe 65760/1 spyder) the bolt size was enlarged.

These cams are "narrow" lobed and are only on very early 124 / 125's. The part number for this cam is Fiat 4162614. They are described as 26/66 measured at 0.50mm (272 degrees) lift is quoted at 9.564mm. running clearance 0.45/0.50 I/E. The driven gears are 4157656 intake and 4157655 exhaust and aux.

Since then it has been the familiar 19mm head, a 12 x 1.25 thread pitch bolt and internal thread in the cam. Cam driven gears came in several styles and materials, and this I believe is the key to figuring which is which for these, but that's another discussion.....

For the 1438/1608 engines, after the bolt size change, the" narrow" lobe cam is Fiat 4192031 both intake / exhaust, the driven gears become 4192032 (intake) and 4192034 (exhaust and aux) These are described as 26/66 @ 0.50mm check clearance (272 degrees) lift is quoted at 9.564mm. running clearance 0.45/0.50 I/E. In my experience these have the number 4192040 cast into them.

Still on the narrow lobe cam (as found in the 125bc.000 engine) another variation appear as this is the first of the "125" family of engines to have the ignition distributor driven from the exhaust camshaft. The exhaust camshaft for these engines is Fiat 4196857

This is a "narrow lobe" cam. These are described as 26/66 @ 0.50mm check clearance (272 degrees) lift is quoted at 9.564mm, running clearance 0.45/0.50 I/E. In my experience these have the number 4196856 cast into them.

For the 125bc.000 engine the intake camshaft is Fiat 4192031, is a "narrow" lobe cam. These are described as 26/66 @ 0.50mm check clearance lift is quoted at 9.564mm, running clearance 0.45/0.50 I/E.
In my experience, these have the number 4192028 cast into them.

Now there are the "wide"lobe cams

This is when Fiat began to use 0.80mm as the specified check clearance.... why?... who knows, but they did.

In the 124CC/CS parts book they list two distinctly different cams Fiat 4294285 (variant 05) and 4304303 (variant 05a)

My 124Ccc technical manual dates from 74, and lists the cam timing as 12/53 52/13 @0.80mm check clearance (245 degrees), lift @ 9.714mm,
running clearance varies thru engine designations, intake clearance is always 0.45mm, but the exhaust varies from 0.45 to 0.60mm
In my experience these cams have 4294284 cast into them. These superceed to 4335494 and Pittatore call these a B24

they also list another cam at 12/53 ( 245 degrees), but with 9.410mm lift,Pittatore call these a B23, this is Fiat 4333583 (possibly the supercession of 4304303 but I can't confirm this)

From 1977 onwards the 132 (1800) in Australia had different cams again these are described as 5/53 53/5 @ 0.80mm check clearance (238 degrees) , lift @ 9.410mm (The specifications I have for the '77/'78 124cs give these same measurements, so I assume these would be the cams in this model) Pittatore list this cam as C34 (82302560) and the number cross references to Beta 1300/1600 cam timing /lift....

An exhaust cam with this timing / lift like this but with the gear for distributor drive is Fiat 4337614, Pittatore call these a B25.

2000 engines vary again. the 132 2000, 131 racing etc have a higher lift cam @9.900mm lift, with 15/55 57/13 cam timing (245 degrees) which is Fiat 4334837, Pittatore call these a B26. (intake) and the exhaust cam with gear is Fiat 4334839, Pittatore call these a B27.

So in summary from my 25 years experience in Fiat DOHC's we have (not counting the ODD bolt sized early cams)

Fiat 4192031 (4192040 cast in) narrow lobe intake (272 @ 0.50mm) 9.564mm lift (From my measurements this equates to about 252 @ 0.80mm)

Fiat 4192031 (4192028 cast in) narrow lobe intake (272 @ 0.50mm) 9.564mm lift (From my measurements this equates to about 252 @ 0.80mm)

Fiat 4196857 (4196856 cast in) narrow lobe exhaust (272 @ 0.50mm) 9.564mm lift (From my measurements this equates to about 252 @ 0.80mm)

Fiat 4294285 (4294284 cast in) wide lobe intake (245 @ 0.80mm)9.714mm lift

Fiat 4333583 (?4304303?)wide lobe intake (238 @ 0.80mm) 9.714mm lift

Fiat 82302560 wide lobe intake (238 @ 0.80mm)9.410mm lift

Fiat 4334837 wide lobe intake (245 @ 0.80mm) 9.900mm lift

Fiat 4334839 wide lobe exhaust(245 @ 0.80mm) 9.900mm lift

So I would say there are 5 distinct valve open duration// lift combinations that Fiat uses on DOHC engines, depending on capacity, CR, market, output etc etc

252degrees* @ 0.80mm with 9.564mm lift (*272@0.50mm)
245degrees @ 0.80mm with 9.900mm lift
245degrees @ 0.80mm with 9.714mm lift
238degrees @ 0.80mm with 9.714mm lift
238degrees @ 0.80mm with 9.410mm lift

so thats about 14 degrees variation (about 1 tooth worth) of difference in valve open times at the same check clearance

and then Fiat swings the valve timing around with different dowel hole positions in the cam driven gears to change the valve open / close time in relation to crank position, by about 1/2 a tooth each way usually....

( which is the difference in steel to plastic gears AFAIK )

SteveC

[Will]

Oh, HOORAY!!!!!!

Finally, somebody with a factory connection digs up the information, and makes everything loads clearer in one fell swoop!!!

THANK YOU!!!!!

[OperaHawk]

Well, I am totally amazed...

Not only do we have 'civilized' conversations :wink: and people with true factory information WILLING to give out the info, but THE MAN is willing to contribute! This is something I never saw in the numerous Shelby/Dodge forums I have been on... thanks, GC!

So, to summarize -

1) The spec difference are mostly due to VE (a cat causes a LOT of HP drain)
2) The engines Euro/US are virtually IDENTICAL.
3) Many changes happened throughout the years by Fiat.

Now, my questions:

1) How much 'back-swapping' is possible? With the 2.2 MoPars, you could use an older cam on a newer engine for a significant gain. Is this possible with our Lancias?
2) Will going with a larger exhaust setup (a common HP gain w/MoPars) help or hinder the HP? I do know that some engines need the back pressure to be happy.
3) What is the preferred octane rating for our cars? I've had no problem with 87. And FYI, it's 2.18 in the Western Chicago 'burbs... :cry:

Grazie, amici!

Steven Jepson
81 Zagato
97 Eagle Vision TSi