Front brakes - what else can it be?

[OperaHawk]

Hey, all.

Been too busy w/shows to look at Lancisti w/regularity; sorry.

Yes, I'm still having problems with the front brakes. (These are remaned units, put on by the place that will not be named since they've screwed up virtually everything they 'restored.')

So far, the hoses have been replaced, the master cylinder has been gone over (plenty of play in the plunger), the car has been pressure-bled (that's what the shop does and they stand by it), and still the RF caliper sticks after about five minutes of driving (I can feel it in the appartent lack of response from the engine, and it's fine, and the extremely short roll to a stop.). Also, there's the telltale whiteish smoke from the wheel well.

I've ordered a caliper rebuild kit from Vick, and the shop will work on that when it gets here. But what if they rebuild the calipers and that STILL doesn't fix the problem? It seems to be only the RF caliper, but if anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them.

Has anyone done a brake upgrade to, for example, Brembo? Maybe that's the way to go...

SBJ

[davidb]

Steven: We've covered the new pads, hoses, rotors, re-built
calipers. ABSOLUTELY rust-free, lubed sliders are a MUST.
Sometimes to get a really good scrub [after new stuff] after
a couple hundred miles I take the caliper off & "exercise" the
piston [extrude w/brake pedal/push back in w/pliers] CARE-
FULLY. Plumber's sand cloth the rotor faces, same w/pads.
Back together, "baby" the pedal to "bed" things in while driving,
1ST few miles. Normally this "re-do" is not necessary. I had
to do it to set things right w/mine. Sometimes these things defy
best efforts, e.g.: my right front outboard pad will only scrub
the lower half of the rotor face? But it's only been 500 miles of
hwy. driving. Maybe it'll bed-in. Sometime . . . Good luck.

[Will]

Hey, all.

Been too busy w/shows to look at Lancisti w/regularity; sorry.

Yes, I'm still having problems with the front brakes. (These are remaned units, put on by the place that will not be named since they've screwed up virtually everything they 'restored.')

So far, the hoses have been replaced, the master cylinder has been gone over (plenty of play in the plunger), the car has been pressure-bled (that's what the shop does and they stand by it), and still the RF caliper sticks after about five minutes of driving (I can feel it in the appartent lack of response from the engine, and it's fine, and the extremely short roll to a stop.). Also, there's the telltale whiteish smoke from the wheel well.

I've ordered a caliper rebuild kit from Vick, and the shop will work on that when it gets here. But what if they rebuild the calipers and that STILL doesn't fix the problem? It seems to be only the RF caliper, but if anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them.

Has anyone done a brake upgrade to, for example, Brembo? Maybe that's the way to go...

SBJ

It could be the hard line from the "T" fitting on the bulkhead- try disconnecting the brake line at the caliper and throw a mityvac on it and make sure you can pump fresh fluid back to the MC.

At least, that will narrow it down to bad caliper/installation, or a problem with the plumbing in the car.

[Charley]

All the rubber brake hoses should be suspect also.If you have a brake hose that is collapsed internally,it may not be visually apparent. A collapsed hose can act like a one way check valve and keep hydraulic pressure on the caliper's piston.Replace all the hoses.

[OperaHawk]

Here's the current lowdown for those keeping score:

Brand new front rubber hoses from DiFatta.
SS brake lines good.
Caliper rebuild kits purchased, awaiting install.
Sliders in good shape - no rust on sliders/caliper mounts, copper anti-seize used.
Master Cylinder has been checked over - remanned unit, everything within specs.
Brake system 'power-bled' - all four corners

And still the RF brake (only) sticks. It will finally release after a while and runs fine for a time, then locks back up after normal braking. This is normal driving, not anything hard on the brakes.

My mechanic said it might be that the parking cable is not releasing fully, which is causing the front brakes to work harder and lock up. My feeling is that if this was the case, it would be locking up on both front calipers, not just one.

Any other thoughts?

SBJ

[Jim Keller]

It AIN'T the parking brake!, doesn't matter how hot you get the front brakes, they won't stick, if anything, they will not work well if at all over heated

It HAS to be that particular caliper, I bet when who ever rebuilt it, they either honed out the body too much, and now the piston is flopping causing it to hang up on the walls or they didnt' clean it and/or hone it so it is sticking on crud, rust or groves

[davidb]

Yes, yes, yes [w/Jim]. Re-check the caliper re-do. I'd begin
to curse here but what does the emergency brake cable have
to do w/a FRONT BRAKE issue? WTF? The parking brake handle
is actuated by the cable, handbrake, spring loaded, mechanical
not hydraulic soley for the rear brakes. I'm outta this one . . .

[1,6 HF]

...My mechanic said it might be that the parking cable is not releasing fully, which is causing the front brakes to work harder and lock up. ...

That's truly one of the stupidest explanations I've heard in a long time. If that's the same mechanic who rebuilt your brake cylinders, I'd say you've identified the problem. If's a different guy, I'd try to find yet a third mechanic to rebuild them with the kit from Vicks. Because I'd be very leery of having any brake work done by anyone who thinks that the handbrake could be somehow connected to your problem.

[budzinsk]

Speaking of brakes. My metal brake lines are fairly rusted on the outside. I would like to replace them - does anyone know of a place I can get the metal brake lines?
Thanks,
Rob

[rossocorsa]

Speaking of brakes. My metal brake lines are fairly rusted on the outside. I would like to replace them - does anyone know of a place I can get the metal brake lines?
Thanks,
Rob

over here we'd get a local parts shop to make up copper replacements, buy a ready made set or buy the pipe and flare them ourselves. this is an excellent non-corrosive permanent fix but I seem to remember that for some reason this is frowned upon in the US, most well known brand is probably www.automec.co.uk

[Jim Keller]

Rob,
So far as the metal lines, there are a few options:

1) And this is what I do personally, Measure the length of the line you want to replace, go to the parts store and by a straight length within reasonable distance to your measurement, (you may have to go to more than one parts store to find the end fittings you will need or, re-use your existing fittings, cutting and flareing the new lines to fit), you want to look for a length no shorter than the original and no longer than about 2 or 3 inches more length, (unless you cutting/flaring and re-using your existing fittings), then bend it and mount it as close as you can to the factory bends and locations, the bends do not have to be exactly perfect as factory either, so if you can't access a small tubing bender, you can do it carefully by hand as long a you make sure you don't kink them, and that's REAL easy to do on sharp bends, so try to beg/borrow/steal a tubing bender for a real easy time with it. If your not going to re-use your existing end fittings, make sure you take an end fitting with you, there are several different thread corsenesses and pitches to choose from so you need to know exactly what threads you need on the ends.

2) I saw Beta Boyz had them in pre-bent for exact fit sets for sale a while back, you may check with them to see what they cost, not sure, but I think they may have been stainless as well

3) like previously mentioned, take the old lines to a shop and have them faricate a set

4) Take the whole car to a brake shop and have them do ALL of it, but that'll be the most pricy route, but hey, get some estimates from a shop or two, you may find paying for the job well worth it, some jobs I pay for, exhausts, drum brakes, and maybe a few other crappy things depending on if it's one of my Lancias or one of my or my wife's daily drivers, anymore, my boring daily's almost always go to the shop, more so the older I get

[budzinsk]

Thanks guys. I think this is going to be next weekend job!

Rob

[OperaHawk]

...it WAS the parking brake cable.

They found that part of it was frozen and never really disengaging, so it would cause the rears to lock up on occasion. It's been disconnected and I've driven the lil' beastie constantly with no trouble. I've also taken her over to two other mechanics in the area and they have checked the front calipers - they're fine. I guess I wasn't feeling where the problem was correctly.

Next on the docket (when the cash frees up) - new parking brake cable/assembly.

SBJ

[1,6 HF]

I'm glad you got that figured out and bypassed, if not fully sorted. Of course if you'd realized the rears were locking, you and we would have figured it out earlier.

But this raises another interesting question: If the rear was locking, not the front, what’s with the "whitish smoke" coming from the front wheel well. Were you just trying to confuse us, or has the College of Cardinals chosen a new pope?

[OperaHawk]

No new pope from what I can see.. :)

My question, too, so that's why I had the calipers checked out by two different mechanics. If I notice the white smoke again, I'll report (and also check for miniature cardinals under the hood)!

SBJ

[davidb]

Check those rear rotors Steven if that E-brake cable was even
partially locked. Good luck breaking those pressed balls [on
the end of the cable] loose from the articulated mechanical
rear caliper arm where the new brake cable balls fit in. Took
me days to break free the old ones. I've never seen rust make
a better weld than that in my life. Calipers out on a vise &
beating the living Be-Jesus on the arm & rusted cable ball. Lest
I become discouraging once done the proper # of clicks on the
E-brake handle is 3 1/2 according to the manual. I've found 4
to 5 clicks acceptable. Lubricate EVERYTHING associated w/that
E-brake cable. It's exposed to every nature of road crap. It works
well, feels good, the E-brake, once totally gone thru. I think an
operational E-brake cable is essential. Been so damn long since
I've driven a manual transmission I put it in neutral when parking,
car begins to roll away. Funny, stupid. Fix the E-brake.

[len_newstrum]

If I notice the white smoke again, I'll report (and also check for miniature cardinals under the hood)! Check your power steering rack for leakage. Mine was slowly leaking and once in a while it would drip onto the headers, putting out some white smoke. If the wind was right the smoke might have been blowing into the wheel well (especially if the piece that goes around the tie-rod is missing--as they usually are).