So much for the idea of buying a Fiat 500! Argh!

[Jim Keller]

Well,
My wife and I Were talking about looking into a Fiat 500 Abarth once they hit our Chrysler dealerships, but with Fiats announcement yesterday that instead of building them here in the US in plants that had offered decent union worker, tax and other concessions to bring production here inside our boarders as was the expectations, they will instead be building it in Mexico, they can keep them! I hope they tank!

If they want to sell a bunch of cars, they can't keep building them in places were they do not pay the people doing the work enough to buy one while laying off those that used to be paid enough to! and then price it like it was built in Detroit by some ungodly over paid high school graduate that spends their days running on lug nuts at wages beyond what a 10 year colladge graduate earns.

Wow! had to edit/delete a lot of this post...........still probably complained too much! LOL

[Will]

What's the difference between a FIAT built in Mexico or a Ford built in Mexico? The way I see it, it's pretty much the same.

What about a Toyota built in Kentucky or Ohio?

At least perhaps if there are jobs in Mexico, the Mexicans will elect to stsay there instead of sneaking over here.

[davidb]

Yeah, there was a big stink on local St. Louis news yesterday about
that. Enormo plant, now vacant, that used to make Dodge Caravans,
other vans, Dodge Ram pick-em-ups. That said, right from the get-go
of the Fiat buy-out, rumormills had it that the 500's were going to be
built in either Mexico or Canada. Never word ONE of an American
plant being re-tooled. So like how many Lancias have every been
built here? Disgusted w/a Mexican 500? Then import a REAL Italian
one. P.S.: the Alfa is slated to be built in Canada, if ever. Sooooo ...

[John O]

I hope they tank!

Dude, they currently build them in Poland. I never heard a promise of USA made 500's - Canada or Mexico, with perhaps powerplants made here. That's about it. Would you feel better if Polish 500s were sold here instead of the Mexican ones? Makes no sense to me ...especially because I've driven one and, while it's nice enough when new, it's a low end econobox which will be a rattle trap by the time it reaches 40K miles (I promise).

Chrysler will be designing US specific models on Fiat platforms which will be Chrylsers. Now, if they don't build the Chrysler variants here, I can see where there's room to get pissed about that.

FWIW, I think very few people are going to give up their Toyota Yaris, Scion Xa, or Honda Fit to buy one. It's a cool little car in it's way, but it doesn't have the charm (or even practicality) of a Mini and it's build quality is just above a Smart.

John O.

[1,6 HF]

..., but with Fiats announcement yesterday that instead of building them here in the US in plants that had offered decent union worker, tax and other concessions to bring production here inside our boarders as was the expectations, ...

Whose expectations? From the first public discussion of the merger with Chrysler, Fiat has made it clear that they wanted to use either Chrysler's Windsor, Ontario assembly plant or, far more likely, Chrysler's Toluca, Mexico assembly plant to build the 500. There's never been a plan to build them in the US, and Fiat has never even hinted at that. None of this is news and none of this should be a surprise.

Seriously, if you don't want to buy one because they won't be assembled in the US, that's fine. But don't make it an issue of Fiat breaking a promise they never made.

[rossocorsa]

as someone from outside the US I'd have to comment that the downfall of the US car industry hasn't been helped by the workforce it all reminds me of British Leyland in the 70s. It's hardly surprising that Fiat would choose the less hassle option.

[rossocorsa]

It's a cool little car in it's way, but it doesn't have the charm (or even practicality) of a Mini and it's build quality is just above a Smart.

John O.

a lot cheaper over here than a mini, the Mini is far too much money for something barely practical, personally I find the Mini a chintzy bad taste pastiche of the original. 500 seems well built and a specced up version is a joy to behold inside

[Geoff]

There was a pretty good article (brief) in one of the on-line mags, I think it was Winding Road, on Fiat and Chrysler. Basically, there are some really critical issues to be faced: Fiat's expertise (at the moment) seems to be in engine technology and diesels, not necessarily in a product line that is compatible with the US market. Its hard to look through the Fiat lineup and see cars that will do well here.

I happen to think the new Delta is pretty interesting, and is an elegant small car that could compete (in the sector) with the Audi A3. As to whether or not its as good, no idea there - just visual comparison being made.

There are of course the Alfas too, that the enthusiasts like us would love to see here - and the worry is that Fiat will stub their toe with things like the 500, and other products that may have a misfit here, and we'll all miss the opportunity for the Lancia/Alfa we'd love to see.

Perhaps the 500 will be big hit here, as an alternative to the Mini, but somehow, its charm seems more suitable for Europe than here. Of course, the low end sector of the market may need a fresh new product. But its hard to see it being the salvation of Chrysler.

The article points out that basically Chrysler products will be retuned with more efficient, and state of the art motors, and then made lighter and leaner. Its likely that Fiat expertise in that should be helpful, and more of a match (if there is one to be made) than Daimler....

Marchione is nothing if not very savvy, and the article points out that while everyone else is bemoaning the bankrupcy, he's picking up fabrication and assembly capabilities for a song.

Geoff

[rossocorsa]

Perhaps the 500 will be big hit here, as an alternative to the Mini,


can't see it it's too small and don't average Americans have a 100% aversion to anything Fiat? then again I can't see why you'd like the Mini either but apparently you do

[John O]

don't average Americans have a 100% aversion to anything Fiat?

I've stopped being amazed at how long the negative memory is here for Fiat. People who were born after the last car was sold new in the US know the old (annoying) saying, "Fix It Again Tony."

Rust was certainly a problem, but every car from that era rusty badly. My personal opinion (I admit I could be wrong): American mechanics could not be bothered to master the new technology Fiat brought to the US market. Volkswagen intially had the same problem but solved it (I think) by hiring young enthusiastic mechanics. The oil change story of the lady taking her 850 to a local mechanic who drained the tranny and added four quarts to the engine rings true to me.

If Fiat is bringing technological innovation with them AGAIN, rince and repeat.

John O.

[Geoff]

There is another aspect to this: the American roads and our mentality are suited to torquey, understressed engines. Our roads are set up for that, our notion of longevity, quality, etc. are all linked into this.

High revving motors of smaller capacity just don't impress this market as a quality product - but rather as one that is compromised. Even the Japanese cars have gone to great lengths to "hide" those characteristics. Selling smaller than 2 liters here is a challenge - and the Italian market for years has always worked with a different notion of engine size.

I'd love to see this change... but its so deeply engrained, its hard to see how the old guard will change. Maybe youth will have a different take on this, but it will take time to be sure.

[Will]

There is another aspect to this: the American roads and our mentality are suited to torquey, understressed engines. Our roads are set up for that, our notion of longevity, quality, etc. are all linked into this.

High revving motors of smaller capacity just don't impress this market as a quality product - but rather as one that is compromised. Even the Japanese cars have gone to great lengths to "hide" those characteristics. Selling smaller than 2 liters here is a challenge - and the Italian market for years has always worked with a different notion of engine size.

I'd love to see this change... but its so deeply engrained, its hard to see how the old guard will change. Maybe youth will have a different take on this, but it will take time to be sure.

From what I've seen, add a rear carrying handle, rubbermaid ground-effects kit, a shitload of LED lights, 12x12 wheels, an obnoxiouly loud stereo preloaded with annoying, repetitve techno, and a fart can exhaust and it will be a surefire runaway hit. Especially if there are enough aftermarket crap add-ons to double or triple the price of the car.

Wait, am I sounding old???? ;)

[KeppelmanJ]

My experience is anecdotal, but I'm not holding my breath in anticipation of the italians coming back with cars. I think they can be brilliant on conception and design of things but poor on follow through. I bought my Beta new in '81 and it arrived with a gummy mess for paint on the roof. The Seattle dealer had to have the top repainted before he's let me see it. The "Champion for Makes" sticker was carelessly stuffed into the corner of the rear window. Still is. Screws in the column cowling around the ignition wiring go right through the wires. When it rains water drips out of the dash onto my feet in the driver's footwell. Not car related, but just recently I bought a bunch of italian lights for a kitchen remodel and the all arrived with the wrong screws to assemble them. A couple good Lancia mechanics in the day told me the problem with the cars (FIAT, etc) wasn't the mechanicals it was poor dealer support. Follow through again. I should add, I've rented Fiats in and enjoyed them a lot.

[Jim Keller]

I'm not pissed, I'm dissapointed, didn't mean to light a fire, was just commenting on the announcement, and I never said I expected it to come here, I was just hoping! LOL. And so far as my Fusion, I screwed up there, I was in such a hury to get a car, I never thought to ask where it was made.
That said, there will be no issues of quality build being built in Mexico, this Fusion is very well made and I am very pleased with it's quality, I'm not worried about that, I am worried about my neighbors, my nephews and friends who due to one thing or another, can't do anything but a manufacturing job, they can not "BE" re-trained, not everyone is smart with a lot of common sense, there really are a lot of people out there who can only put nuts on bolts and the like, you know, things you repeatedly do, but I am also not saying the US labor union leaders and the workers who swallowed their many times exagerated crap, and blindly followed same, didn't push the envelope a tad too far on the value of the work done with wages and bennies shooting themselves, and us, in the foot basically! LOL.

Other than farming, strong manufacturing is the backbone of any country, not WalMart

My developed personal, not political, view on purchasing anything anymore is to try to find US made, this is to keep all my friends and neighbors employed. I do not care who owns and makes it as long as they employ in the US, (I like all brands), I will buy any make and model I find acceptable for my needs as long as it is made, or at least assembled, in the US. If I lived in Mexico, I would only want to buy Mexican made, etc....

Living in a small industrial town surrounded by farms, I live and see first hand everyday the end results of not buying US made products. We have a lot of empty factories, buisnesses, unemployeed folks, foreclosed, abandonded, bankrupt etc....around here due to not going under, but moving small factory equipment and jobs mainly to to Mexico, as well as other places. I don't want this to be a polictical thread so I will stop here, it's just how I feel and the personal view I have come to hold due to my manufacturing town up bringing and what has been going on around it for the last 20 plus years, real bad the last 4 or 5.

[Will]

I'm not pissed, I'm dissapointed, didn't mean to light a fire, was just commenting on the announcement, and I never said I expected it to come here, I was just hoping! LOL. And so far as my Fusion, I screwed up there, I was in such a hury to get a car, I never thought to ask where it was made.
That said, there will be no issues of quality build being built in Mexico, this Fusion is very well made and I am very pleased with it's quality, I'm not worried about that, I am worried about my neighbors, my nephews and friends who due to one thing or another, can't do anything but a manufacturing job, they can not "BE" re-trained, not everyone is smart with a lot of common sense, there really are a lot of people out there who can only put nuts on bolts and the like, you know, things you repeatedly do, but I am also not saying the US labor union leaders and the workers who swallowed their many times exagerated crap, and blindly followed same, didn't push the envelope a tad too far on the value of the work done with wages and bennies shooting themselves, and us, in the foot basically! LOL.

Other than farming, strong manufacturing is the backbone of any country, not WalMart

My developed personal, not political, view on purchasing anything anymore is to try to find US made, this is to keep all my friends and neighbors employed. I do not care who owns and makes it as long as they employ in the US, (I like all brands), I will buy any make and model I find acceptable for my needs as long as it is made, or at least assembled, in the US. If I lived in Mexico, I would only want to buy Mexican made, etc....

Living in a small industrial town surrounded by farms, I live and see first hand everyday the end results of not buying US made products. We have a lot of empty factories, buisnesses, unemployeed folks, foreclosed, abandonded, bankrupt etc....around here due to not going under, but moving small factory equipment and jobs mainly to to Mexico, as well as other places. I don't want this to be a polictical thread so I will stop here, it's just how I feel and the personal view I have come to hold due to my manufacturing town up bringing and what has been going on around it for the last 20 plus years, real bad the last 4 or 5.

IMO the problem isn't that some guys can't do much more than bolt on wheels, but rather that they expect to make $25/hr plus medical and matching 401K to bolt on wheels all day while a Mexican will work for $4/hr.

My personal philosophy is to only buy *decent* stuff regardless of where it is made so I don't fill up landfills with cheap plastic junk. Sometimes I am tempted by cheap price, but then learn my lesson- like the craptastic Harbor Freight air filter oilers I ordered for like $25 ea and 2 of the three leaked brand new and had to be tossed. There's a reason the good ones are $175.

[Brad Smith]

I find Geoff's entry interesting. I have always wondering to myself over the years why/what Italian car manufacturers were thinking when they determined the gearing for their cars and their application to the American market. I have on more than one occasion wanted to roll along at 75+ mph for extended periods where it is the norm on certain parts of the freeway and have wondered why my Beta didn't come w/ a .8 final gear or something along those lines for low stress on the mechanicals. I enjoy an OD on my Triumph TR250 and use it often. Is it the attitude that we could drive something else for long distances and only use our Beta's and Scorpions for "spirited driving" or the lack of awareness in the amount of freeways we have and distances we frequently drive. Maybe I am spoiled in my appreciation of torque and our "low tech" American engines. Hopefully Fiat will examine the American market and find something that appeals to a large segment and possibly catches the publics attention such as Ford did w/ the mustang styling w/ subtle modern technology.:D

[78 Beta HPE]

Are you saying that driving a Beta (78 HPE) at 75mph for an exteneded period of time is bad for it. I am a new Beta owner and drove mine from Denver back to SC and did have some problems along the way. I was hoping to make this my daily driver but now its sitting in the drive and i'm pretty sure i need to change the timing belt and maybe rebuild the carb. Could i have put to much strain on the mechanicals. I love the body style of the HPE and really wanted to drive it every day... and at high speed 80mph+. I was hoping to put a dual carb on it. I do not know that much mechanically on cars, let alone italian but i love the HPE. Is this not the car for me if i want to be driving fast... often.

[1,6 HF]

Are you saying that driving a Beta (78 HPE) at 75mph for an exteneded period of time is bad for it. ... I do not know that much mechanically on cars, let alone italian but i love the HPE. Is this not the car for me if i want to be driving fast... often.

There's absolutely no problem with 75mph or higher if the car's in good mechanical condition (and if it's not, driving it at 50mph for a long time is just as bad...). If you don't have the aptitude (or just not the time), I'd suggest you find a decent mechanic near you who understands Lancias and/or Fiats, and have it looked over. But if it made it from CO to SC at all, it can't be all that bad.

[davidb]

Unless I'm nuts I recall someone, here, saying '79s had a
lower 5TH gear. If that be the case yet another '79 oddity.
Dunno?

[Brad Smith]

Oops, now I feel like I stepped in it. I guess what I meant in part of my earlier post was that for extended periods such as driving for 50 or so odd miles down a flat interstate w/ no speed changes, shifting, or curvy roads etc the fun of driving a car like this is partially lost if you are in 5th gear for 30-45 minutes at 4,000 rpm in normal traffic flow. Many years ago I had a 66 Cyclone w/ dual quad solid lifter 390 w/big tube hookers, a V-gate and toploader w/ 4.88's behind it. Driving it for long distances on freeways made me think about cam and valve spring wear and kept me watching the gas gauge. Thinking about things like that kinda takes the fun out of it. When you have a car that handles well and makes all the right sounds it is enjoyable, + you can shift down a gear and use the power band when you want. With the final gearing that my 79 Beta has I don't have the option of relaxed rpms while bombing down the freeway to make it a little more economical at the same time. Still like driving my cars which I will do until H**l freezes over but sometimes would like that od 5th gear if there was such a thing. And no, I would agree, the rpms don't hurt these things at all though I sometimes wonder what the oil temperatures are. On a final note I bought a used ring and pinion from England a couple of years ago from an outfit that said that they came out of a 1.3 litre beta and would supposedly drop my rpms but the pinion looks different to me so I haven't taken the time to look at it further and set them aside for now. :scratch: I still drive my Scorpion and Beta coupe all the time...

[1,6 HF]

Oops, now I feel like I stepped in it. I guess what I meant in part of my earlier post was that for extended periods such as driving for 50 or so odd miles down a flat interstate w/ no speed changes, shifting, or curvy roads etc the fun of driving a car like this is partially lost if you are in 5th gear for 30-45 minutes at 4,000 rpm in normal traffic flow. ...

Honestly, I don't find driving on a flat stretch of interstate to be much fun no matter what car I'm driving. So I'm not sure that I'd make a huge distinction in that regard between a modern car and my Fulvia. I've done 300+ mile drives on interstates at just under 4500 rpm (at which point I'm doing about 80), without any worry about stressing the engine. If it's any less fun than 3000 rpm in my Saab, it's only because the Fulvia has no radio...

[rossocorsa]

I know that they will be rare in the US but a volumex gearbox is the answer to your prayers it will slightly blunt low end acceleration but give a much more relaxed cruise

[fay66]

Are you saying that driving a Beta (78 HPE) at 75mph for an exteneded period of time is bad for it. I am a new Beta owner and drove mine from Denver back to SC and did have some problems along the way. I was hoping to make this my daily driver but now its sitting in the drive and i'm pretty sure i need to change the timing belt and maybe rebuild the carb. Could i have put to much strain on the mechanicals. I love the body style of the HPE and really wanted to drive it every day... and at high speed 80mph+. I was hoping to put a dual carb on it. I do not know that much mechanically on cars, let alone italian but i love the HPE. Is this not the car for me if i want to be driving fast... often.
I'm quite shocked that anyone thinks 75mph for something like a Beta is a bit much for it, My 1966 Fulvia 2c Berlina has covered thousands of miles at 70-75mph right the way down through France, into Spain then on to Portugal and back, whenever possible, with the odd surge into the 80+ MPH when overtaking.
One day stands out in particular which involved that sort of speed for 9 hours (with the odd stop) in 30c heat, from Salamanca to Pamplona, then across the Pyrenees into France, and well over 350 miles in the day; in 10 days running we covered 3500 mile and the only problem was a puncture caused by dropping into a large pothole in Portugal.
In 2006 we drove to Turin and back for the Centenary of Lancia, another 2000 miles, and funny enough the only problem was a puncture; this with best part of a Tonne of car, 1091cc putting out 71bhp maximum at 6000rpm, very low overall gearing and the rev counter showing 4500 rpm at 70 mph!
The first 2 photos are from Busaco in Portugal, I'm very interested in the Peninsular War in Spain & Portugal, so this trip was great as we visted a number of Battlefields, the other 3 were taken at Roncesvelles in the pyrenees.
As you can see I love the rear view of the series 1 Berlina!

Brian

[LanciaDave]

Bravo on your trips, Brian. Very nice, I'm jealous.

I don't think Brad and others are saying that Any of the Lancia's can't handle extended highway speeds. What he's saying is for some US freeways, that can be Very long, and Very staight (read boring, no high speed sweepers, gentle hills, etc), it would be nice for comfort sake to have a more overdrive top gear or taller final drive to drop the revs under 4 grand for extended periods, in order to make it a little quieter and less droning with no radio. And yes, for the Beta, the VX trans accomplishes this nicely.

Chris with the new (to you) HPE, welcome to Lancia ownership! and welcome to the club as well. That's a nice car you got there. I was tempted by it a couple times. It would have made my 3 other HPE's jealous though. BTW Yes, they can be used for daily transport. Please try to guard it against salt on the roads and things back there. You might get some tips on Waxoyl other preventive measures from our friends in England who have experience with such things.

I suspect that some of your troubles can be alleviated by three things.
A good all around tune up.
Remembering that you may need to re-jet the carb since Denver is such a higher elevation.
Dealing with the after-effects of a car that has spent substantial time sitting over the last few years. Most commonly rust, or crud in the bottom of the gas tank getting sucked up intermittently and causing running problems. It may be best to remove it, have it cleaned out, resealed inside, then replace with new filter before the pump, possibly a new pump, blow out the lines, and another new filter before the carb.
Let us know what other problems we can help with.

Dave Decker
a 'couple' Lancias
Oregon

[OperaHawk]

Chris - get in touch with me, considering I'm only an hour up from you in the Charlotte area!
As a MoPar junkie (used to be heavily into Shelby/Dodges, have owned an Eagle Talon and now have a Jeep Grand Cherokee) I check out Allpar very frequently (ww.allpar.com). The current news concerning the 500 is that the first cars (scheduled for around mid-2010) will be imports from Italy, not Poland (they will be VERY conscious about QC) as the Toluca plant gets geared up. They will be sold as Fiats at your local C/D/J dealer.

Sergio and his group are really planning this out and are (FINALLY!) letting the locals do the major work, instead of trying to run the biz from Europe (as did Daimler) or gut the company (as did Cerebrus). I actually thin this will work, and hope that Chrysler will return to profitability soon. Their plan is to pay the TARP money back - in full - by 2012.

Fiat will bring a lot of tech, especially the MultiAir system and the stop/start feature, to the smaller vehicles.

Just my $.02...

[rossocorsa]

The current news concerning the 500 is that the first cars (scheduled for around mid-2010) will be imports from Italy, not Poland (they will be VERY conscious about QC) ...

hmm I don't think they make 500s in Italy do they? more to the point why would you think that Polish built FIATs have any worse build quality than Italian ones? definitely not the case