79 Zagato Spider......Part 2

[79ottozagato]

Hi gang,

Well, I took the top of the carb apart and goofed with the float, needle and jets........vroooooom.

It started right up and idled well........It was running so I decided to get it home.

(Wow it sounded really sweet.......no valve taps.......just croooned an sweet italian song)

I drove it about 15 miles and decided to start flipping switches to get acquainted with the car.

That's when I tried to see if the a/c would work.

I flipped the switch and the car immediately stalled. It got it pretty close to turning over again but it just wouldn't do it. If I pressed the pedal it would run at about 750 rpm but never really engage.

Soooooo, I went back to get my car and tow it home. Right before I hooked it up........vrooooooooom.

But this time it only lasted about 2 minutes before dying.

I gave up for now.......Got it home and will look at it more indepth tomorrow.

(Give me your prognosis.......Is it basically an fuel/air mixture?)

There's a hole in the exhaust manifold near the firewall....Could that be a contributor?

GOOD NEWS: I grabbed an 81 Beta at a local auction Friday, that means I now have a 5 speed waiting to swap out and a set of original wheels to have redone......Amongst other things.

Pictures soon.

Thanks to everyone for your support.

[Jim Fierst]

That hole in the exhaust manifold shroud is to duct warm air to the air cleaner and should have no effect. There is another pipe out of the bottom side of the exhaust header which goes to the intake manifold . I don't recall its actual hookup but I expect it brings warm exhaust gases into areas of the manifold to warm it quicker. Remember in the late 70's emissions was all about warming the engine quickly to reduced the richer fuel requirements at startup.

Now that you have an 81 there several updates you could consider after you get the running issues resolved.

Are you sure that there is no rust or decomposed hose fragments getting to the carb? A plastic see through fuel filter in the engine compartment could help you to determine that.

[79ottozagato]

I'm definitely not talking about the carb oven......This is a hole off to the side on the manifold causing smoke.

There is a see through filter already.......Now that I have it home, I just really need to get down and really look at everything.

I've also been trying to go to weber carburetor and look at some diagrams......It looks like the choke plate is missing off of the choke shaft.

The connection and arm is there......just not the plate.

[Jim Keller]

This is the best advice I will EVER give you, here and into the future..........

Restore the 81 you just picked up using the 79 as a doner car! You will be MUCH more pleased with the results with much less struggle, money and frustration. The 79 will also never....."EVER!"....be worth what a 75 thru 78 or 81 thru 82 is restored.

Spending alot of money to restore a 75 thru 78 Beta?..........ok......good I guess, not as comfortable nor nearly as powerful as the 81 thru 82 FI models with the bigger engine, better seats, better ignition system, better fuel/air delivery etc....

Spending money and time restoring an 81 thru 82 Beta......Best choice, for all around value, from keeping it yourself and enjoying to re-sell value

Spending money and time on a 79 "one year only", notoriously troublesome, hated and avoided model year? ........only if you have more money, time and patience to throw away than your normal Beta driver/owner and you desire to prove something to the rest of the Beta crowd

Just my opinion of course, we all do as we see fit, but the only thing I like about the 79 over ALL other years of Betas is the gas cap being hidden behind the door on the rear quater instead of being exposed as in the 81-82 model years

[len_newstrum]

I'm definitely not talking about the carb oven......This is a hole off to the side on the manifold causing smoke.

There is a see through filter already.......Now that I have it home, I just really need to get down and really look at everything.

I've also been trying to go to weber carburetor and look at some diagrams......It looks like the choke plate is missing off of the choke shaft.

The connection and arm is there......just not the plate.

That hole in the exhaust manifold is for the Exhaust Gas Recirculation pipe (from my recollection: EGR and the stock exhaust manifolds have been gone from my cars for quite some time:)). You definitely don't want to replace it unless your local emission control laws require it as its function is to "poison" the mixture in your intake manifold (to keep combustion temperatures down) right when you need a good fuel/air charge the most. Just plug the holes in both manifolds.

From your description I would say that you have some crap in the low speed circuit of your carburettor. Which carb is on your car? DATRA or that DHsomething that was used, I think, in some '79s? No matter, they are all pretty similar. The carb type is stamped on the edge of the base, next to the cam where you can't see it, of course.

You really cannot clean a carb well without taking it off, soaking it in carb cleaner, and blowing out the passages. You might be able to blow out the low speed circuit on the engine by removing the idle mixture screw (Count the turns so you can put it back right: should be 1-1/2 to 2 turns) and the low-speed jets (short jets on the top of the carb), then blowing compressed air through the passages and the jets. Be sure and keep track of which jet goes where as they look identical and aren't marked. If you don't have an air compressor you'll have to take the carb off and take it to somebody that does. Huffing and puffing won't do it.

If it is true that the choke butterfly is gone I would be really worried! The prior owner messed with the carburettor and obviously didn't know what he was doing: a very dangerous situation with Webers. Setting the throttle plate and the automatic choke on the DATRA is probably the trickiest part of overhauling one, followed by setting the idle mixture/speed. God only know what jets and emulsion tubes are in there and whether they are the in right places. Get ready for a good education in carbs.

The simultaneity of turning on the A/C and what appears to be a fuel/air problem is bothersome. :scratch:The first thing that I can think of is the fast-idle valve on the right rear side of the carb. It is solenoid actuated when the A/C turns on and uses vacuum in the carb to open the throttle a bit so the engine doesn't die at idle with the A/C running. (I remove it and the rest of the A/C system on my cars. They never work, weigh a ton and make working on Betas hell.) Anyway, it is conceivable that the diaphragm in that valve is punctured and dirt was pulled into the carburettor. Pretty remote, but conceivable. I would suggest turning the A/C off and leaving it off until you've solved your existing problem, have a few hundred miles on it, and are very close to home.

[1,6 HF]

+1 on Jim Keller's advice.

I've had '75, '79 & '81 Beta Coupés, and IMHO a choice between a '79 and an '81/'82 easily comes down in favor of the '81/'82. And that's even without factoring in the automatic on your '79.

[davidb]

Automatic Beta transmission = major ouch. That's an inviolate
rule. And yes injected Betas ['81 - '82] are vastly preferable.
Not w/o their own problems but much better/more reliable.
Reliable being a highly relative word, as I just employed. We
are, afterall, talking Betas here. And so on & so forth . . .

[1,6 HF]

Automatic Beta transmission = major ouch. That's an inviolate
rule. And yes injected Betas ['81 - '82] are vastly preferable.
Not w/o their own problems but much better/more reliable.
Reliable being a highly relative word, as I just employed. We
are, afterall, talking Betas here. And so on & so forth . . .

David,

I had my '75 when I lived in Pittsburgh, and when I lived in Ithaca, NY and commuted 3 days a week to Syracuse (110-mile round trip), sun, rain, and snow. With minimal maintenance, in two years it only let me down once--the battery gave up one winter morning. Not exactly a major reliability issue. The '79 and the '81 were daily drivers in LA. No problems at all with the '81; nothing but problems with the electrics on the '79 (purchased from Caribou). The only saving grace was that my mechanic was only 2 blocks away--all down hill.

Other than that turd of a '79, my Betas were reliable, and not just relatively. As far as I'm concerned, Jim Keller nailed this one.

[SubGothius]

Just a thought, if the '81 you got has a trashed body/interior but a sound engine and the '79 is vice-versa, you might just consider dropping both cars' subframes with powertrains intact, and swap the '81 powertrain whole-hog into the '79's engine bay. You'd also need to replace fuel hoses to make sure they're all FI-spec high-pressure hose, maybe a few other bits'n'bobs here'n'there, but that seems the most straightforward, minimal-grief approach to me. Then you'll have a spare 2L engine from the '79 to consider rebuilding with HC pistons, etc. at your leisure.

[davidb]

Not dissing carbed Betas Ed. I had a '78 Sedan, bought new,
that gave me 80+K trouble-free miles. I'm saying if buying
a Beta buy an injected one. You're alot more likely finding a
mechanic willing to work on an injected one than carbed IMO.
W/the codicile you find a mechanic willing to work on a Beta
PERIOD.

[Jim Keller]

Because the carb to FI cars have so many small differences in the underpinnings, I would NOT try to swap the 81 drive train to the 79 body, I would do a 79 to an 81, that wouldn't be too bad a deal, but things like the radiator support for a 79 carbed radiator, 79 one year only cooling system and 79 one year only fuel system, plus a few other minor differences, would make swapping an 81 into a 79 a real nightmare. Trying to make the 79 a fuely car would take a lot of cutting and welding of the chassie to get proper supports and openings for all the FI differences

However, all the 79 stuff so far as interior will simply swap accross, (for the most part), and bolt right in place, a lot of the body panels can be swaped over if there is rust or badly dented panels, all glass will swap out to either car.....but the drive trains, well, they are way too different to swap the 81 into the 79, they made a lot of underhood changes from 79 to 81 to accomidate the different fuel, cooling, ignition systems of the two

I'm lazy, wouldn't want to do all the cutting, welding and fabricating to make it work properly, "and again" its' just my opinion <grin>

[79ottozagato]

Thanks for all your feedback.

I'll take both the good along with the bad.

I did see some of the immediate problem in that the see through filter
is now full of rust.

And when I picked it up to look further part of the braided hose of old crumbled.

I did try to find a shop that would dip the tank today but there doesn't seem to be any around here. That included a radiator shop that OSHA took away their dip tank.

If I have to DIY, what solution should I use?

Thanks,

[DJ]

If I have to DIY, what solution should I use

I can highly recommend the POR 15 Fuel Tank Repair Kit (http://www.por15.com/FUEL-TANK-REPAIR-KIT/productinfo/FTRK/). It's really easy to use and works extremely well to clean and seal your tank.

[Charley]

Not dissing carbed Betas Ed. I had a '78 Sedan, bought new,
that gave me 80+K trouble-free miles. I'm saying if buying
a Beta buy an injected one. You're alot more likely finding a
mechanic willing to work on an injected one than carbed IMO.
W/the codicile you find a mechanic willing to work on a Beta
PERIOD.
Unless of course you ask Charley Jeffries,he prefers carbureted Betas. ;)

[Jim Keller]

Like DJ said, the POR 15 stuff is super, but I always usd Red Line brand fuel tank liner, (also very good stuff), just because there is no POR 15 dealer here in my small farm town, but we have several Red Line dealers, my impatience is why I used Red Line over POR 15, didn't want to wait the 3 to 4 days for UPS to get it to me was all, other wise, I would have used the POR 15

[Jim Fierst]

I did not see any mention of replacing the rubber fuel lines when you have the tank down. If they were like mine they were rotting from the inside out. Don't chance any of them and replace them all.