L.E.D headlight conversion

[VXSpider]

I hope it is Ok to put this on the forum

I have Converted the quad headlights of my Beta Spyder to L.E.D bulbs, I personaly think they look great and perform just as good as H.I.D lights

Here are some photos I have attached of them they are rather bright and created some glareing.

Let me now what you think.

[len_newstrum]

You're right about the glare! Are those things road legal in all 50 states???

[VXSpider]

I dont know, but if HID's are legal then L.E.D's should, I already asked the D.O.T and they said they are legal in Georgia.
The Law here in Georgia says that if the headlights can be clearly seen from 200 feet they are legal.

Here are some more I took tonight.

[HF Stinger]

Where did you get them? Can you share their website with us?

[VXSpider]

Yeah, the direct link is http://store.ijdmtoy.com/Hyper-Flux-LED-Bulbs-Fog-High-Beam-Driving-Lights-p/led_flux_h4.htm they are H4 design so they fit directly in to composite headlights for Betas and any car with a H4 headlight. they also have H3's, 9005 and 9006, H1, H7, and H11 L.E.D Hyper Flux matrix bulbs.

Right now they are only 20 dollars per pair.

The composite housings I got from JC Whitney.

[1,6 HF]

I can see a couple of issues with the H4 unit shown on the web site link. First, there's no indication of the lumen output of these. Second, and far more important, the light output isn't 360 degrees--there's a shadow at 0 / 180 from the support for the LED array. Without reflectors specially designed for the output gap, these simply won't perform as well as conventional TH incandescent lamps.

Personally, unless my electrical system was overloaded, and the reduced wattage of the LEDs made all the difference, I wouldn't go anywhere near these. LEDs may well be the future, but the future's not here just yet. I'll wait for the next generation version, and take another look then.

[VXSpider]

100=lumens per Diode 12 diodes per matrix or bulb(6 on each side)I am researching lumens now.
Wavelength= 7500kelvin (slightly higher than a 6000K HID bulb)
120 degree visability pattern per diode.

I will get back with ya'll with the total llumens.

[VXSpider]

OK here is what I have found out a 9 watt L.E.D bulb puts out 65 lumens per watt equevelent to a 70 watt light bulb.

and as the H4 "Bulbs" have 12 1 watt LED's we can assume that 65 lumens times 12 equals 780 lumens so each of the bulb puts out somewhere around 780 lumens.

[1,6 HF]

I don’t know if your LED lumen calcs are correct, but if they are, those LEDs are putting out a lot less light than the 55W or 100W tungsten-halogen H lamps they’re supposed to be replacing. (Of course, 100W lamps aren’t legal in most states, if any. But it’s usually possible to run them for main beams without problems.)

Anyway, here are the approx. lumen outputs for t-h H lamps:
H1 55W: 1550 lumens
H1 55W (high efficacy): 1700 - 1850 lumens
H1 100W: 2800 lumens
H4 60/55W: 1650/1000 lumens
H4 100/55W: 2900/1000 lumens

With my non-standard quad set-up, I run high efficacy H1 55W lamps in the 5-3/4" low beams, and H1 100W in the 7" mains and auxiliary driving lamps--all 4000K. I run relays on all the 100W lamps, and I don’t seem to be overloading the electrical system.

I could be missing something here, but with the lower lumens and compromised optics of the LEDs, I just can’t see any reason to use them. I have no doubt they’ll continue to improve LED lamps, to increase the output and cure the optical deficiencies. Until then, the lower wattage and much longer life aren't worth the performance trade-offs, IMO.

BTW, the Kelvin numbers you’re quoting refer to what’s commonly called "color temperature," which doesn’t have much to do with lumen output, but can have something to do with relative visibility. Although some folks like the 6500 - 7000K 'blue' look, my understanding is that the lower color temperature 4000 - 4500K lamps actually provide somewhat better visibility. In my case, though, I run 4000K lamps mostly because I think they look better on the car.

[VXSpider]

I am just guessing at it by the way another person was explaining it on the net ,I understand the color temp but for an LED they called it the wavelength and it was 7500K I think it looks kinda cool, they are slightly more blue than the HID's I have in my Subaru. I will do some more research.

[1,6 HF]

The color of light is a function of its wavelength, but artificial light sources aren't typically referenced by wavelength. The color temperature scale, expressed in degrees Kelvin, is the general measurement standard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature

[VXSpider]

The color looks about right 7500K color temp or wavelength cool blue. I am just assuming there are 1 watt LEDs on the bulbs cause there are also 3 watt SMD LED's, but more people are saying 100 lumens per watt than 65 lumens so if they are in fact 3 watt SMD LED's I would have to say that 3*100*12 equals 3600
even if it was 65 lumens per watt that would be 2340 lumens
then there was another site that said 85 lumens per watt so 85*3*12= 3060
and yet another that said 70 lumens per watt so 70*3*12=2520
I am really not sure what lumens they actualy are but they are bright from my visual inspection.

[1,6 HF]

There are prototype LEDs that produce 130 lumens per watt, but the figures you're quoting seem to have nothing to do with the H4 replacement lamp you've got. It's tough to find hard figures on LED outputs for H4 replacements, but from what little I can find it's very possible that you could be getting 1000 lumens on low beam, which would generally compare with a t-h H4 low beam.

In any case, as I said, my bigger problem has to do with the optics, which are so radically different than a t-h H4 that they won't perform properly in a headlight reflector designed for conventional H4 lamps. Those reflectors are engineered for a 360-degree light source, not a pair of 120-degree sources back to back. The few cars that are currently using LED headlights have reflectors specifically designed for their specific LED arrays.

So I don't mean to be as negative as I'm probably coming across, but I'm concerned that the visual brightness of your lamps may be bright glare rather than bright well-directed light.

[HF Stinger]

I will do some more research.

It sounds like you have done enough research, just enjoy them and keep us posted as to how you like them once you get little behind-the-wheel time. I think they are a great option.

[John Allen]

yes. I was thinking the same. The reflectors are designed around a specific filiment location - not spread out like the LEDa are.

I also saw on the website that the bulbs are HIGH BEAM and FOG LIGHT replacements, no mention of low beams... Maybe that is how they address the light scatter?

I've seen a lot of prototype cars that use LED lighting where the lights don't use a reflector at all. I think that is where the lighting design is headed...



There are prototype LEDs that produce 130 lumens per watt, but the figures you're quoting seem to have nothing to do with the H4 replacement lamp you've got. It's tough to find hard figures on LED outputs for H4 replacements, but from what little I can find it's very possible that you could be getting 1000 lumens on low beam, which would generally compare with a t-h H4 low beam.

In any case, as I said, my bigger problem has to do with the optics, which are so radically different than a t-h H4 that they won't perform properly in a headlight reflector designed for conventional H4 lamps. Those reflectors are engineered for a 360-degree light source, not a pair of 120-degree sources back to back. The few cars that are currently using LED headlights have reflectors specifically designed for their specific LED arrays.

So I don't mean to be as negative as I'm probably coming across, but I'm concerned that the visual brightness of your lamps may be bright glare rather than bright well-directed light.

[VXSpider]

So I don't mean to be as negative as I'm probably coming across, but I'm concerned that the visual brightness of your lamps may be bright glare rather than bright well-directed light.


I know I am just letting ya'll know what I have sortof found out about the LED's that are on the circuit board. Without a correct part number I can not find an exact part.

[len_newstrum]

I've seen a lot of prototype cars that use LED lighting where the lights don't use a reflector at all. I think that is where the lighting design is headed...Most likely LEDs are the next generation of headlights--all lights for that matter. When they do come I suspect they will be flat panels.

That has will have a significant impact on body design; allowing for about a 6" reduction in body length and moving the very heavy bumper and its supporting structure aft with a positive effect on handling, but a negative effect on crushable structure and consequentially on the potential for engine and radiator damage in collisions.

Another plus is the reduction in energy consumption, which results in a small, but not insignificant decrease in fuel consumption (or electrical power use in the case of plug-in cars). [BTW, I think the current design standard that automatically turns the headlights on whenever the engine runs has the unintended result of increasing fossil fuel usage with little gain in safety (frankly, I find that it decreases our ability to see beyond the first car in our vision field, particularly to the rear). Even if the use of headlights during daylight hours means only a fraction of a mile per gallon, when you multiply that by the number of cars on road you would get an astounding amount of wasted fuel. Similar criticisms can be made for many of the federal design requirements that have resulted in making cars unreasonably complex. Just compare the Italian and North American wiring diagrams in your Haynes manual from 4 feet away! Safety concerns would be better addressed by establishing performance requirements rather than dictating design solutions.]

However: I think that the reason that LED headlights are only on prototype cars may be that they do not yet meet the rigid FEDERAL design requirements for beam shape. I don't have them at my fingertips, and can't remember where I saw them, but the Georgia state requirements for Watts and/or lumens are secondary and probably address only the problem of old lights and wiring problems that result in dim lights and the substitution of off-road driving lights for high-beams.

Based on the pictures that have been posted I would say that the glare problem (the vertical lines) is significant. On the other hand, that may just be problem with the optics of the camera that was used to take the picture. Perhaps a picture taken with the same camera rotated 90 degrees would answer that question.

Even if using LED headlights, at this point in time, does not end up in a ticket you may be decreasing safety; both your safety and the safety of others. I wouldn't recommend this modification until they show up on new production automobiles.

[VXSpider]

The Glare is only in the pictures, Unless the other persons windshield is extreemly dirty I dont see them beeing a problem, if they are to bright then I can just aim them down like they do with HID's8)

I dont intend to use all four all the time.

but here is the law

OCGA § 40-8-20. When lighted headlights and other lights required

Every vehicle upon a highway within this state at any time from a half-hour after sunset to a half-hour before sunrise and at any time when it is raining in the driving zone and at any other time when there is not sufficient visibility to render clearly discernible persons and vehicles on the highway at a distance of 500 feet ahead shall display lights, including headlights, and illuminating devices as required in this part for different classes of vehicles, subject to exceptions with respect to parked vehicles as stated in this part.

And the law for the standard of use.

OCGA § 40-8-30. Standards for multiple-beam road lighting equipment

Except as hereinafter provided in this part, the headlights or the auxiliary driving light or the auxiliary passing light or combination thereof on motor vehicles other than motorcycles or motor driven cycles shall be so arranged that the driver may select at will between distributions of light projected to different elevations, and such lights may, in addition, be so arranged that such selection can be made automatically, subject to the following limitations:

(1) There shall be an uppermost distribution of light, or composite beam, so aimed and of such intensity as to reveal persons and vehicles at a distance of at least 350 feet ahead for all conditions of loading;

(2) There shall be a lowermost distribution of light, or composite beam, so aimed and of sufficient intensity to reveal persons and vehicles at a distance of at least 100 feet ahead; and on a straight level road under any condition of loading none of the high intensity portion of the beam shall be directed to strike the eyes of an approaching driver;

(3) Every new motor vehicle other than a motorcycle or a motor driven cycle registered in this state which has multiple-beam road lighting equipment shall be equipped with a beam indicator which shall be lighted whenever the uppermost distribution of light from the headlights is in use and shall not otherwise be lighted. Such indicator shall be so designed and located that when lighted it will be readily visible without glare to the driver of the vehicle so equipped.


But like the police in the state of GA do they don't follow all the laws so "if they can see your headlights workin your good"

[1,6 HF]

The Glare is only in the pictures, Unless the other persons windshield is extreemly dirty I dont see them beeing a problem, if they are to bright then I can just aim them down like they do with HID's8)

I dont intend to use all four all the time. ...

The manufacturer's own web site says they're not for replacing the low beams--the only possible reason being that the beam can't be properly controlled with standard reflectors. But you're running them on all 4 lights? Which you don't see as being a problem, because you won't be using all four all the time?

Good luck. I'm outta here.

[len_newstrum]

The manufacturer's own web site says they're not for replacing the low beams--the only possible reason being that the beam can't be properly controlled with standard reflectors. But you're running them on all 4 lights? Which you don't see as being a problem, because you won't be using all four all the time?

Good luck. I'm outta here.(Shudder)

Me too.

[Will]

I don't want to get into the beam debate embroilment here, some similar arguments could be posed to the folks who have fitted HID H-4 package replacments.
(no low beam, etc,)

BUT I do find LED's to be very useful for places like the interior and compartment lights on the scorpicarlos where the original festoon bulb melts and discolors the plastic lens.

I am not a huge fan of the single-wavelength color emissions of typical LEDs but some of the newer ones use doping phosphors that alleviate this to a degree. They have been invaluable to those of us who have boats and need rely on a couple of 170ah batteries to power the fridge and lights and everything else overnight and still leave a fresh battery in the bank for starting the engine.

Not such a big issue for your car, but the reduced heat and longevity factors may well be.

[1,6 HF]

...BUT I do find LED's to be very useful for places like the interior and compartment lights on the scorpicarlos where the original festoon bulb melts and discolors the plastic lens...

LEDs will have a significant role in the future of lighting, and have any number of excellent uses now. My comments were directed only at their use for headlights.

[VXSpider]

They say for high beam, fog light, and driving lights, they don't mention "not for low beam use" on thier website, but heck if they meet or exceed the minimum requirements of the law in Georgia I will use them.I like the way they look. It is just my personal prefference. it says "turn High beams in to City light" what ever those are.:confused:

[len_newstrum]

I thought that it might be time to do a little fact finding web searching. Wikipedia said the following:


The Hella headlamps on the 2009 Cadillac Escalade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Escalade) Platinum became the first U.S. market all-LED headlamps. Present designs give performance between halogen and HID headlamps,[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlamp#cite_note-DVN_Dorissen-38) with system power consumption slightly lower than other headlamps, longer lifespans and more flexible design possibilities.[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlamp#cite_note-39)[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlamp#cite_note-40) As LED technology continues to evolve, the performance of LED headlamps is predicted to improve to approach, meet, and perhaps one day surpass that of HID headlamps.[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlamp#cite_note-41)

The limiting factors with LED headlamps presently include high system expense, regulatory delays and uncertainty, and logistical issues created by LED operating characteristics. LEDs are commonly considered to be low-heat devices due to the public's familiarity with small, low-output LEDs used for electronic control panels and other applications requiring only modest amounts of light. However, LEDs actually produce a significant amount of heat per unit of light output. Rather than being emitted together with the light as is the case with conventional light sources, an LED's heat is produced at the rear of the emitters. The cumulative heat of numerous high-output LEDs operating for prolonged periods poses thermal-management challenges for plastic headlamp housings. In addition, this heat buildup materially reduces the light output of the emitters themselves. LEDs are quite temperature sensitive, with many types producing at 30 °C (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celsius) (86 °F (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit)) only 60% of the rated light output they produce at an emitter junction temperature 16 °C (61 °F). Prolonged operation above the maximum junction temperature will permanently degrade the LEDs and ultimately shorten the device's life.The need to keep LED junction temperatures low at high power levels always requires additional thermal management measures such as heatsinks and exhaust fans which are typically quite expensive.

Additional facets of the thermal issues with LED headlamps reveal themselves in cold ambient temperatures. Many types of LEDs produce at −12 °C (10 °F) up to 160% of their 16 °C (61 °F) rated output. The temperature-dependency of LED's light output creates serious challenges for the engineering and regulation of automotive lighting devices, which are in some cases required to produce intensities within a range smaller than the variation in LED output with temperatures normally experienced in automotive service.

Cold weather also brings another thermal-management conundrum: Not only must heat be removed from the rear of the headlamp so that the housing does not deform or melt and the emitters' output does not drop excessively, but heat must in addition be effectively applied to thaw snow and ice from the front lenses, which are not heated by the comparatively small amount of infared radiation emitted forward with the light from LEDs. {Emphasis added by me.}It would appear that IF you are using the 2009 Escalade's Hella headlamps you will be legal. You are, right? They are the first to comply with the FEDERAL beam requirements. (I found in other sources that the European beam requirements are more strict, so don't take your car overseas). You do understand that Georgia did not succesfully secede from the Union and that some states enforce federal laws--rather than "...if they can see your headlights workin your good" --so you might be well advised to stay within Georgia's borders.

If you are not using the approved Hella lights, you might want to take note of the heat-related problems and include heatsinks and/or fans in your installation.

The cold weather problem is not significant in Georgia, although I believe that a little snow does occasionally fall there. If you decide to go skiing in Montana, though, you might want to fly and rent a car: super-bright lights in a snowstorm are blinding to the driver; not a desirable trait, but that might be more than compensated for by your headlamps becoming iced over.

You are, of course, free to pursue whatever course you want; but I would urge everyone else to make safety (of others, not just yourself) a primary consideration when trying to advance technology in your garage. If you wait a few years the guys with deep pockets will solve the problems with LED headlamps and they will become legal.

And "Cool Color!" should never even be a consideration if safety is involved.

[len_newstrum]

While I'm still frothing at the mouth:


The Glare is only in the pictures, Unless the other persons windshield is extreemly dirty I dont see them beeing a problem, if they are to bright then I can just aim them down like they do with HID's8)

I dont intend to use all four all the time. I'm glad you dutifully wash your windscreen every day. If that girl coming toward you is blinded by those vertical glare lines because of the red dirt on her windscreen and goes into a ditch (or worse) it is just her fault for being stupid or lazy or late or whatever. Too bad, she was kinda cute. Shrug.

And staying on low beams won't help. The low beams are the culprits here. High beams don't matter because they are only supposed to be used when nobody else in on the road. If by "turn them down" you mean aim them down you cannot see far enough ahead.

I spent 50 years as a mechanical engineer, being always concerned with the safety of the innocent people that our work could affect. It would be ironic to die at the hands of someone that didn't give a damn.

[VXSpider]

There is a problem with keeping my windshield clean? I wear glasses so if I don't have clean glasses and a clean windshield the glare is much worse from on comeing traffic.

I'm sorry if I have offended you in any way.


You also know that the Audi R8 is a production car with LED headlights, The Tesla also has LED headlights ,also a production car, like you said the Escalade Platnum, VW is implementing LED headlights in their models.

It is new technology for automotive use. But they will just be confused with HID's right now, because they look like HID's.

L.E.D Overheating only accures in housings less than 50mm

[Scott H]

The Hella headlamps on the 2009 Cadillac Escalade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Escalade) Platinum became the first U.S. market all-LED headlamps.

The 2008 Lexus LS600hL was the first car to market with LED headlights in calendar year 2007. They were only low beam with the high beams halogen. LEDs are now available on a few additional vehicles including the 2010 Prius.

I have a stand with all three technologies; halogen, HID, and LED. Looking at them side by side I like the LED look as long as they have the proper lens.

>Scott

[John Allen]

it says "turn High beams in to City light" what ever those are.:confused:

"city lights" are not much more than parking lights within the main beam housings. Remember the old ('63 and older) VW Bugs? The 'angel eyes' that the current BMWs use are similar in concept - not intended for driver illumination, but allows the car to be seen by others.

By them stating that (high beams into city lights), it tells me that they are not intended to be used as replacement main beams.

[len_newstrum]

The 2008 Lexus LS600hL was the first car to market with LED headlights in calendar year 2007. They were only low beam with the high beams halogen. LEDs are now available on a few additional vehicles including the 2010 Prius.

I have a stand with all three technologies; halogen, HID, and LED. Looking at them side by side I like the LED look as long as they have the proper lens.
>Scott and VXSpider said,
You also know that the Audi R8 is a production car with LED headlights, The Tesla also has LED headlights ,also a production car, like you said the Escalade Platnum, VW is implementing LED headlights in their models.
With all due respect go back and read the Wiki page that we I (and Scott) quoted!
Automotive headlamp applications using light-emitting diodes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode) (LEDs) have been undergoing very active development since 2004.[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlamp#cite_note-36)[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlamp#cite_note-37) The first series-production LED headlamps were factory-installed on the Lexus LS 600h / LS 600h L (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_LS#LS_600h_.2F_LS_600h_L) starting with the 2008 models. Low beam, front position light and sidemarker functions are performed by LEDs; high beam and turn signal functions use filament bulbs. The headlamp is supplied by Koito. Full-LED headlamps supplied by AL-Automotive Lighting were fitted on the 2008 V10 Audi R8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R8) sports car except in North America. The Hella headlamps on the 2009 Cadillac Escalade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Escalade) Platinum became the first U.S. market all-LED headlamps. Present designs give performance between halogen and HID headlamps,[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlamp#cite_note-DVN_Dorissen-38) with system power consumption slightly lower than other headlamps, longer lifespans and more flexible design possibilities.[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlamp#cite_note-39)[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlamp#cite_note-40) As LED technology continues to evolve, the performance of LED headlamps is predicted to improve to approach, meet, and perhaps one day surpass that of HID headlamps.
The Lexus did not have all four headlights as LED. The Audi did not try to sell their R8 in the US. The 2009 Escalade is the first US market car with all-LED headlamps. As for the 2010 Prius; are you sure that the US has approved their design yet, or are they just going to put filament lamps in the US cars? At this point in time the 2010 Prius is not being sold in the US and the system in the Escalade and is whatever is being proposed for next years Prius is not what we are debating.

We are talking about the advisability of putting a home-grown lighting system on the road using lights that are not intended or approved for such usage. I do not think that is a good idea.