1979 Zagato Special Edition

[79ottozagato]

Hi folks,

Well, I did it. I took the plunge and purchased a 79' Zagato Spyder Special Edition (Black and Gold)

Anyone else with an automatic?

Next comes the challenge of getting it started. It turns over and sounds like it wants to start but just doesn't make it.

First carbureted vehicle I've had in years.

I've read that the fuel lines could be the culprit as they may lose vacuum but not altogether leak. I am hearing the fuel pump when I turn the key so I'm hoping that's ok.....(The 90 degree angle can't be good positioning)

Any recommendations to try?

It sounds like a simple fix but I may be wrong.

Thanks for your help.

Mark
Albuquerque

[Jim Keller]

Do the normal, first look down the carb and flip the throttle a few times to see if it is getting fuel into the intake manifold, if it is........

Pull the spark plug wires and make sure it has good spark, I stick a phillips screw driver into the wire connection and hold close to metal ground on the engine somewhere while turning the car over to observe for spark, if no spark, check the pickup coil inside the distributor for bare/broken or shorted wires on the pickup, if ok check coil and grounds

If it has spark, pull the plugs and check to make sure they are ok, not fouled by fuel or carbon, etc.....

If thats all ok, make sure the choke flap is closing, (real common carb car no start problem), if it isn't setting, that will make it hard to start, pump it 5 or so times then try to start, if it fires, you will have to work the throttle keeping revs up a little until you get heat built up in the engine, (a few minutes is all that should take), before it will idle if the choke isn't working or not set properly.

You can also squirt a tad of fresh gas down the carbs throat, just a few ounces, and see if it fires right off, that will tell you to look at the carb, supply of and or fuel quality that is in it, carb cars really hate old gas, so if your trying to start it on old fuel, that could be the problem

I must plead with you to NOT judge the Lancia Zagato or any other Beta based on the experiances you will be going thru on this 79, (resist the "time to time" overwhelming desires to slit your wrists you will be having while trying to make a good driver out of it in other words), those were a one year only animal and do not represent the Beta line well in stock form due to the EPA requiremets on US cars that made it slow and troublesome, (first year for the 2.0L, last year for carbs, only year for that cooling system setup, only year for automatic option, heavily EPA mandated), all of which can be replaced/removed/by-passed and over come, (if it hasn't already been modified by the PO's), with a fairly small amount of money if you keep your eyes open, ask for help, watch eBay and classifide Lancia ads and are good at DIYing it.
And then you add insult to injury, (or salt to the wound), you mentioned it was an automatic, dont' look for much mobility with it, 79 was the only year offered with an automatic, most are either burned out or about to go, (maximum mileage out of one was about 18 to 20K miles, more due ot owners not keeping the trans cooler clean, it's in a bad spot that picks up a lot of road grime and muck, plugging it easily. They were from all I have read and experianced, the worst automatic transmssion ever produced in the history of man kind! LOL I highly recdomend swapping it out to a 5 speed, buy a parts car for the swap so you get all the necessary brackets and hardware needed, trying to track it all down in the various pieces/parts is much more costly and a pain in the ars

Once you have worked on it some, you'll find it isn't as hard as you first thought, you just need to learn where the access points are, mostly thru the wheel wells for the work needed

Good luck

[len_newstrum]

Next comes the challenge of getting it started. It turns over and sounds like it wants to start but just doesn't make it.

First carbureted vehicle I've had in years.

I've read that the fuel lines could be the culprit as they may lose vacuum but not altogether leak. I am hearing the fuel pump when I turn the key so I'm hoping that's ok.....(The 90 degree angle can't be good positioning)

Any recommendations to try?JK has given you some good advice, but I'll add a couple more things.

If the car has been sitting for a year or more, drain the tank and refill it with fresh gas plus some carburetor cleaner. (Put a little bit of the old fuel in your other cars when they are almost full. No sense wasting it!)

Then pull the gas line off at the carb and put the end in an appropriate container and run the start sequence a few times to verify that the fuel pump is actually pumping fuel and to get fresh fuel into the carb. Reconnect fuel line.

Take off air cleaner and stick a propane torch (not burning!) into the carb and give it a few seconds worth of propane in the manifold. Remove torch and open throttle fully once to close the choke--to hold the propane in. Start car. If it starts right away your spark is OK. Do not keep putting propane in to keep it running!!! (People used to use an acetylene torch this way and melted their pistons. Propane is not nearly as hot, though.)

If it starts using propane, but dies, it is definitely a carb or weak fuel pump problem. I've found that doing it a few times often cleans the old gunk/fuel out with no further work needed. Once you have the carb filled with fresh fuel/carb cleaner let it sit for a few days. Then try it again.

If it still won't keep running you'll have to do a carb cleaning.

If it starts and runs, but starves out under load you might have a weak fuel pump. There is an easy way to check that out, but lets leave it for phase 2.

Aside: I replaced my cigarette lighter with a momentary on pushbutton switch that puts power to the fuel pump. You can splice into the fuel pump wire behind the side panel next to the passenger's feet. This lets you prime the carburetor prior to starting the car if it has been sitting long enough for the float bowl to go dry. It also helps when doing the fuel pump test, above, so that you don't have to keep running the starter to make the pump run. Although I've never had to do it, you could also use it to get home if the fuel pump relay fails; which is not uncommon. (Relays: I've learned to hate them.)

[pabeaver]

Mine sat for for over 15 years. Replace all the fuel, vent and emission hoses. Clean out the carb. I had mine off 5 times once it was running as there was this fine powdery rust throughout. The small passages on the inside of the throttle bore above the throttle plate clog easily. I ran 3 fuel filters in series for the first months on the road. My idle jet would get clogged with small black particles even with the new hoses and filters, that finally stopped.

Get a Carter electric 4psi fuel pump from ebay for $35.

Make sure to retain the fuel return line from the carb back to the fuel tank.

[79ottozagato]

Thanks a bunch for the feedback.

Is this essentially the same 1995cc that Fiat used in their Spider?
I've got an 80'......And yes, an automatic as well. That car had
113,000 miles on it before I retired it for an 86' Alfa Spider.

(I wanted that Fiat really bad.......Same with this Zagato)

GM did a joint venture with Fiat back then and used auto trannies
out of Chevy Chevettes.

Is this the same with Lancia or did they use a true italian tranny?

Thank,

Mark

[len_newstrum]

GM did a joint venture with Fiat back then and used auto trannies out of Chevy Chevettes.

Is this the same with Lancia or did they use a true italian tranny?Nope. It is a British transmission, designed by Automotive Products, but actually built in Italy. AP made, among others, the Mini transmission. By reputation it was (is?) a good company, but this transmission was not a shining example of their otherwise good designs. My suggestion is to keep it well maintained and keep your fingers crossed.

Does anyone here know whether or not AP is still in business and, if so, if they still support this box?

[Jim Fierst]

The engine is essentially the same as the 1995 Fiat except for the pan, oil pump, camboxes which are affected by the inclined mounting of the engine. The blocks start out the same but after machining the Lancia is different and a FIAT block won't interchange.
I have a 79 and have done some things to improve overall performance so it depends on what you want to $.
Certainly removing all the smog equipment is a good start.

[1,6 HF]

Nope. It is a British transmission, designed by Automotive Products, but actually built in Italy. AP made, among others, the Mini transmission. By reputation it was (is?) a good company, but this transmission was not a shining example of their otherwise good designs. My suggestion is to keep it well maintained and keep your fingers crossed.

Does anyone here know whether or not AP is still in business and, if so, if they still support this box?

AP did the initial design work, then Lancia took over the design and production of what I have referred to elsewhere as a boat anchor. It was a badly-engineered unit that was neither smooth nor reliable. AP never supported the 'box. In fact, it's a serious question as to whether Lancia ever really supported it.

I cannot imagine who could/would work on one of those. And if it has any serious problem, the cost of repair would be far more than the cost of a good used manual 'box.

Because the car doesn't yet run, it's impossible to assess whether or not this one is actually working properly now. If it's not, the only sensible answer is to source a decent used manual unit, and send the slush 'box to the grave it so richly deserves. Even if it is actually working properly (which would make it very rare indeed), my suggestion would be to source a good used manual to swap in later.

[Jim Keller]

Uh.....Mr. Fierst, I have to differ on one of your points, <smart a#% grin>, the Fiat Spider 1995cc and the Lancia 1995cc IS interchangable, (at least 82 Fiat to 82 Lancia), I stuck an 82 Fiat Spider 2.0 into the 82 "Biltmore Project" Zagato when I did that one for Rich in Indianna, (too bad he left it in a parking lot at the army base next to a heavily traveld road being sprayed with road salt and grim for a year till a spring tornado took it out and I got it back as a parts car 18 months after a ground up restoration!, I put a lot of love into that one, broke my heart he didn't take care of it and that was next to the final straw on my restoring Fiats and Lancias for others, an obnoxios Fiat spider owner resoration I did finished it off for me), it swapped over fine say a few spacers at the drive shaft boss mount and maybe a few other minor mods I may have forgotten I had to do, Both blocks have the same tapped holes and such for the bolts and brackets, difference being the Betas have the extra casting at the boss mounting location but the Fiat has the tapped holes still at the boss mounting location, just have to add a couple bushings to get the spacing needed for the drive shaft boss, which can be ground off the Lancia block for use in a Fiat.

Of course, all other stuff you mentioned does have to come from the vehical your putting it into, pan, oil pump, cam towers etc....

Also, another thing I discovered and Jon Logan verified is the Lancias, at least the fuel injected ones, have larger intake/exhaust ports on the heads from factory, (I am pretty sure that is one of the places the Lancia gains the few minor HP over the Fiats, otherwise the heads are the same too, just oil drain back holes are different in the cam boxes due of course to the slant of the Lancia mounting as you said

[79ottozagato]

Thanks for all of your input.....It's deeply appreciated.

This leads me to my next question. I have an 81 owners manual to go with a 79 car.

What should I do for the fuel pump.......What do you suggest as a good replacement.

I had one guy tell me that a fuel pump similar to what the old Porsche's use would work.....

He showed me a Pierberg 12V Rotary Fuel Pump with
7mm fittings and 3.5 psi.

He also showed me a price of $121.00

(Is there one that you recommend?)

Thanks,

Mark

[Jim Fierst]

Jim,I looked at using a 1995 FIAT block in my rebuild but decided against it because of the drive shaft mounting differences you mentioned. I did not feel it could be done because of possible shaft torquing and misalighment that could occur without that dowel pin centering the mount. Glad it worked out for you.

[SubGothius]

The Carter "gerotor" p/n P60504 is a good 4psi unit; I and several others here seem to like that model, although mine is actually a P60430 (6psi version) because that's what was cheap and in stock at the local hot rod shop. You should be able to find this or a competitor's equivalent at your local autoparts chain store. Any low-pressure pump should do, but try and avoid the solenoid-driven "cube" style pumps like the common Facet brand; rotary-action pumps are superior.

[Jim Keller]

Ha ha ha, not sure if it DID work out Jim, I trailered it to his house in Indy and he only drove it as far as the army base just south of there where he and a few of his army buddies proceeded to strip out spark plug holes and a few other things making it un-drivable, then he let it sit there next to the busy road till the dang tornado, rain, sun and winter road salt pretty much destroyed it over the course of a years time, so it probably only went about 100 miles total before I got it back as a parts car! it may have developed a problem later if he had drivien it aggressivly for some time, but now we will never know!........I hate people that do not take care of stuff, any stuff, not just Betas I put love sweat and tears into for not much more than the cost of parts-N-paint!

[pabeaver]

Hi. If you have a carburetor, go with a universal electric fuel pump from Carter (3.5-4.0 psi). They go for $35 on Ebay.

[Jim Keller]

Hey Mark, try calling around to your local auto parts stores, (AutoZone, Advance auto, Pep Boys, NAPA, CarQuest, etc...), ask for an electric fuel pump for a 79 or older Fiat Spider 124 if they do not have a Beta listing, which many just might, (NOTE: I think they also used the same type electric fuel pump on the 79 Fiat Spider's but I am not sure, a Fiat guy would know what year to ask for for sure, mechanocal vers electric that is, it just has to be one for a carb car running around 4 psi or so), bet their prices at AutoZone or the like would be at least a third the $121 you were quoted, and have a life time replacement warranty to boot. Master Craft makes a lot of after market fuel pumps, some have had them go bad and needed to swap them out under warranty, but I have used 4 of the $70 Master Craft brand 39-41 PSI fuel injection ones for a Fiat Spider 2000 on Beta Zagato's from AutoZone with life time replacement warranty and never had one with a problem, however, I have had several, (at least three I can remember off hand, two from Bruce's Parts Bin and one from Bayless), new or NOS $300 Bosch units go bad shortly after installing them

Remember one important thing about the Italian cars, they are real good about sharing parts from on model to another, so a lot of stuff crosses from cars like Fiat Spiders and X1/9's if you know what your looking for

Beta Side marker lights -Same as X1/9 and later Spider 124's, minor un-noticable difference
Front turn signals - same as X1/9, Spider 124/2000 and I think Scorps
All Fuel injection stuff - same as Fiat Spider 2000 except mounting points for AFM, air intake hose, intake manifolds and a few other minor hook-up parts
I could go on, but your looking for a carb fuel pump at present so I'll shut the hell up now

[79ottozagato]

Hi Gang,

Thanks for everyone's support so far on this project.

I didn't get it started yesterday........Came close but no dice.

There was flow from the old fuel pump but I figured I'd change it while I
had the new one.....That purolator fuel pump had to go.

NOTE: If anyone is looking for Carter fuel pumps.....Pep Boys. It's all they stock.......I got the recommended "gerotor" in stock for $71.99 The 6 psi was out of stock but would have been less at a little over $50 dollars......Either way, they've got em.

After I swapped out the Fuel Pump and plugs it sounded a little closer.

It would start for about 3 to 5 seconds with starter fluid.....but when I went to lay a little pedal into it to keep it going it would die.

The plugs looked relatively good......No oil foul up, just standard burn but I did want to start with a clean set.

Next, I'm on to the distributor and plug wires followed by all hoses.

(So will the wires and distributor off my 80' Spider be the match?)

The hoses look like a mess........Some are plugged with bolts (I'm guessing for smog) There's lots of braided hoses.......Are those going to be the vacuums are could some be fuel as well? I just need to take the time to trace them and find out. Probably next weekend.

(On the firewall side of the engine, it looks like a there's an opening for a hose off the manifold that I'm guessing would lead up to the air cleaner)

There's no hose.........Should there be one?

No frustrations.......Just learning on the car.

All your feedback is much appreciated.

Best,

[Jim Fierst]

The hose off the exhaust cover is a corrugated paper with wire affair that goes to the air cleaner to heat the air whan cold. IIR correctly there was some thing in the air cleaner that regulated it. It is not important in the scheme of things . When you get an inventory of what hoses are going from where to where and which are plugged we can probably help you out.
Just a comment on your starting problem. It sounds to me like you have blockage in the carb. I would pull the top off it and insure you are getting fuel there then remove the jets and blow them out. Also check the bottom of the float bowl for sediment.
The 79 lancia distributor is a unique sort of animal as it is block mounted and different than your 2L Fiat Spider. I know that dizzy works in some of the early Fiats that had block mounted distributors and is prised by those owners because of the electronic ignition. I don't know about the pre 79 Lancias or if back dating is possible but if you do you loose the electronic ignition. You can update to the 81/82 Zagato cam
end drive dizzy with the right pieces. I did that. It might ??? even be possible to use the Fiat exhaust cam,cambox and distributor on the Lancia head. No one that I know has ever tried it or commented on it. More on that later after you get things more sorted out..

[len_newstrum]

Just a comment on your starting problem. It sounds to me like you have blockage in the carb. I would pull the top off it and insure you are getting fuel there then remove the jets and blow them out. Also check the bottom of the float bowl for sediment.I'd give that about a 95% probability. Pay attention to the needle and seat assembly. With the low fuel pressure that these carbs use, it can clog very easily. (Note how there is a little clip that actually pulls the needle open when the float drops rather than depending on fuel pressure to open it. Just because the needle opens, however, doesnt mean that the seat isn't clogged.) You might as well check the float level setting, too, as long as the top is off. The settings and procedure were posted here recently.

[Jim Keller]

Yup, sounds like what Jim-N-Len say on the carb, take it apart and go thu it, if the gaskets don't tear when you take it apart, then a super good cleaning is all there really is typically to a carb "rebuild" say replacing the accelerator pump.

Also check the following, could be one of a combination of things beyound previously mentioned, bad choke pull off, (that will make it stall when you step on the pedal), bad vacum lines, stuck distributor weights, vac advance bad or vac line to same bad, (bad vac advance will make it stall when you hit the gas), you would have to pump the accelerator as the revs build if the vac advance is bad. Another common problem that makes them stall when you press the pedal is accelerator pump diaphram bad, cracked or has a hole, those sell seperate from a carb rebuild kit.

You'll have to modify the oil drain back holes on the Fiat cam box to use it on a Lancia, so far as I know, that is the only difference in the castings. The Lancia has higher inlet level to compensate for the tilt and keep the cam in oil, a stock Fiat cam box would allow too much oil to drain back and most likely run the cam dry on startup

[79ottozagato]

Thanks for all your responses.....

Looks like I may have located a donor Beta as well. I'll know within a couple of days.

In the meantime, could anyone tell me the model of the carburetor for
this 79 Zagato?

I'd like to see if I can go online and find the proper schematic to it.

Thanks,

[SubGothius]

In the meantime, could anyone tell me the model of the carburetor for this 79 Zagato?

Stock was an emissions-strangled Weber 30/32 DATRA or DHTA, which you'd really only want to keep if your local emissions inspections require it. Largest you can get for a stock-style manifold (i.e. without going for a custom manifold or dual-carbs) would be a 34 DMTR/DAT/DATR/DATRA, but I think you'd also need an 1800 ('75-78) stock manifold to actually make the bigger barrels useful. My Cali-spec '79's stock manifold has the carb mounting up to a manifold plenum opening that's only 30/32mm wide, so a 34 would be wasted on that.

[Brad Smith]

I would have to add that if you are getting it to run w/ starting fluid for a few seconds that you have obviously narrowed it down to fuel delivery or a vacuum leak(s). As you have to keep squirting starting fluid down the carb to keep it running and worry about burning your eyebrows off it's usually nice to have a squirt bottle w/ gas to pump gas thru the carb vent and fill the bowl up. That way you can at least check/verify the accelerator pump and most likely get it to run for 10+ seconds till the carb empties out and the emulsion tubes are exposed. Usually with the higher rpms you will get w/ gas in the bowl it might prime the fuel pump and keep it going. At least you have eliminated the spark as a problem and narrowed down any issues.

[DJ]

Stock was an emissions-strangled Weber 30/32 DATRA or DHTA, which you'd really only want to keep if your local emissions inspections require it. Largest you can get for a stock-style manifold (i.e. without going for a custom manifold or dual-carbs) would be a 34 DMTR/DAT/DATR/DATRA, but I think you'd also need an 1800 ('75-78 ) stock manifold to actually make the bigger barrels useful. My Cali-spec '79's stock manifold has the carb mounting up to a manifold plenum opening that's only 30/32mm wide, so a 34 would be wasted on that.

The stock in the USA for all '79 Betas was the DHTA. California spec cars had the 30/32 DHTA 3/279 and 49 states cars has the 30/32 DHTA 1/279. Not sure what the differences were but I'm sure you wouldn't be able to tell the difference by looking at them. These carbs are significantly different than the DATRA that was used on earlier Betas.

As SG noted, the stock manifold on the '79 won't work for the DATRA. You'd have to find a manifold from an earlier car to install a DATRA (automatic choke) or DMTR (manual choke).