82 Zagato, runability problems

[richarda]

This car has not been driven much in past 10 years, this year I started working on it. It has a runablity problem, it starts and runs good except it will cut out at times for a second or two. Driving down the road it will cut out and then continue, Most noted after stoping at light or making a turn.

I have check electrical, change fuel filter, can't seem to find anything not correct.

Ideas

[richarda]

One additional thing to mention, it seems to get worse the longer it is driven, yesterday I took it out for about 40 miles and problem was more noticable after that.

Thanks

[1,6 HF]

First, welcome to the forum. It's great that you're getting a car back on the road.

When you say you've "checked" the electrical, what do you mean? Have you even changed the plugs? Frankly, if a car's been sitting that long, I'd assume that none of the ordinary maintenance items--plugs, plug wires, fuel filter (that one you've done)--can be trusted, and I'd change them all. But from what you describe, it might be an issue with the distributor or coil. [edited; forgot these have electronic ign]

Hopefully, it's one of the maintenance items above, and not something in the L-jet sensors.

[DJ]

Hi, Richard

Welcome to Lancisti!

The first thing I would check is the small wires from the ignition pickup inside the distributor. If those are cracked or missing insulation (VERY typical) it's time for a replacement.

Another common problem is fuel cleanliness. These cars have a typical problem with crud in the fuel tank. If you don't have a see-through filter in line you may want to stick one in so you can monitor the fuel quality. If you find a lot of fine reddish particles in the fuel, you'll want to pull the fuel tank and have it cleaned/lined. There are DIY kits for this that are simple and work really well.

Also could be a symptom of a failing thermo time switch. You can get a small resistor to stick into the wiring plug that will bypass the switch and let you see if that's the problem. Unfortunately, I can't remember the resistance rating but others here will know.

Lots of people with Beta experience here that can help so you should be able to get sorted pretty quickly.

[Jim Fierst]

DJ
Did you mean thermo time or coolant temperature sensor.. The CTS is the Achillies Heel of the L jetronic system as it can soft fail and then recover and work fine. It usually shuts the engine down and one has to wait a few minutes for it to recover.. With the engine warm the ohms reading for the sensor is 270 OHMS and 2000+ when cold. I carry a made up plug in for my Fiat Spider which has the same system. I am not aware of any situation where it has caused a miss or irratic running but I suppose it could.
I would be suspect of the magnetic pickup leads in the distributor.

[DJ]

DJ
Did you mean thermo time or coolant temperature sensor..

Of course, I meant the CTS. Thanks, Jim. I always get those mixed up.

I've read about other folks having intermittent problems with them similar to wat Richard describes before shutting down completely, as is the usual case. An easy thing to check with the resistor jumper.

[richarda]

The plugs, and plug wires, dist cap, rotor are all in good shape, near new. I did check for worn wires inside of dist but did not find any

I checked the resistance on the coil and both primary and secondary are within range. I don;t know of anyting else to check on coil?

I have taken the vacume line off of the fuel ppressure regulator (which IMHO opinon would stop and drop in pressure by not allowing returning of fuel to tank) no change.

I check the resistance on the air flow sensor, all seem to be at correct reading. I check the closed throttle resistance on the trottle plate switch and set it per spec.

It seems that I can make the problem to occur by had acceration, the car runs strong and then just like its shuts off for 2-3 sec then back on.

Is it possbile that the throttle plate switch has bad contacts and is telling the CPU the wrong info? Any way to test?

[richarda]

RE: CTS, not sure where this is, their are two sensors under the air duct from filter to air flow sensor, one with a part number of 280130214, the other only has number 144??

I did check the resistance on the one with #144 and it is with in spec both cold and hot.

Not sure how this would effect my problem as the books says that this sensor "tells the control unit to provide extra fuel necessary durning warmup". If this was bad would I not be getting more fuel than needed, not less?

Just for chuckles I changed the coil and not difference.

[DJ]

Not sure how this would effect my problem as the books says that this sensor "tells the control unit to provide extra fuel necessary durning warmup". If this was bad would I not be getting more fuel than needed, not less?

This would be the thermo time switch, which as Jim pointed out, isn't the one I meant. The other is the coolant temp sensor which is the one that can cause problems.

[davidb]

Welcome & thank you for trying to make the car roadworthy.
www.mirafiori.com has a decent pdf explanation of the L-Jet
F.I. system. Albiet for a 124, the system is the same. All
pertinent sensor, etc. locations are different for a Beta. Good
luck there. Page 15 of I.A.P.'s catalog lists many F.I. system
parts. If push really comes to shove w/you Richard a Porsche
mechanic intimately familiar w/L-Jet F.I. systems is an option.
I've had to go that route after replacing most of the F.I. system
myself. Car won't run properly, why [?] more $$$$. Luck!

[Will]

Intermittants are tough, the exact symtoms you describe turned out to be a broken wire right at the spade terminal to the ignition module- you could literally put oyur foot on and off the accelerator and it would cut in and out- because the torsion of the engine on the subframe was enough to bend the wire and make/break contact.

I would wager an ignition problem- remember it's the ignition that triggers the ECU in these cars, not the other way around like today's models.

[Jim Fierst]

Richard I keep coming back to the fuel tank. If your tank rusted while it sat then that rust will continue to be a problem. Drop the filter line and drain the filter into a pan for a look see. My 79 while carbed acted the same way even with a filter change. Ultimately I had to have the tank resealed at a reputable radiator shop and the problem went away..

[Jim Keller]

Richard, Jim is pointing you in the right direction, your symptoms are exactly those of the infamous Beta tank sludge, it settles when the car sits overnight so at first it will run ok till you make a turn or two, or accel/decell a few times and get the sludge churning up, it then clogs the very fine pickup sock and starves the engine for fuel pressure. It will idle and rev with clutch in fine because those operations do not require a lot of fuel flow, but will not maintain the fuel pressure and flow well enough under load and it will cut in and out throwing you back and forth in your seat, FI's are most prone to it because they are fuel pressure dependent where a carb has a storage supply bowl it will run on during the times the sludge interupts the fuel pressure

[Will]

There is a very big difference between starvation and ignition/FI triggering problems though, the former stumbles and occasioanlly pings and the latter goes on and off like throwing a switch.

[richarda]

As prior posted stated, my car is doing the later, like a switch being turning on and off.

I intend to change the throttle plate switch with one from my X just to rule that out, if no change I can move on to the next thing.

I had read that the power to run the injectors goes thru the ignition switch to the resistor to the CPU. To rule out the ignition switch I intend to find which wire going to the resister is hot when switch is on and not hot when off, then run a jumper thus bypassing the ignition switch and see if that makes a difference.

I agree that the gas tank should be cleaned as it does show some minor rust in fuel filter but I think this is something different.

[Will]

As prior posted stated, my car is doing the later, like a switch being turning on and off.

I intend to change the throttle plate switch with one from my X just to rule that out, if no change I can move on to the next thing.

I had read that the power to run the injectors goes thru the ignition switch to the resistor to the CPU. To rule out the ignition switch I intend to find which wire going to the resister is hot when switch is on and not hot when off, then run a jumper thus bypassing the ignition switch and see if that makes a difference.

I agree that the gas tank should be cleaned as it does show some minor rust in fuel filter but I think this is something different.

Actually, the ECU is fed from a device called a "dual relay" which is just that, it's a Bosch part that looks like two large relays in tandem in a sort of monobloc base. And it is yet another part to fail, although IMO more likely to fail completely.

I strongly suspect that you'll find your problem is due to engine movement and a wire making/breaking on the ignition module, one of the three grounds to the distributor housing (cam end plate) , or possibly even a HT leak that is dumping enough spark to overcurrrent the module.

Here is my homebrew schematic of the stock wiring harness for the FI system:

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/543/BoschFI.jpg

[richarda]

No joy on the throttle plate switch, changed it and no difference.

Also not having any luck in trying to rule out the igintion switch, could not find any wires at resister that are hot only when car is running (except the green one going to the fuel pump)

I am begining to think that Will is correct, a loose wire, trying to find that does not sound like fun.

Will you drawing looks great, hopefully with its help I will be able to make some progress.

I have checked the resistance on air flow sensor and it is within spec but somebody else had suggested that I should pry off the cover and make sure the cotacts inside were in good shape. Has anybody does this? How did you reseal? any problems getting it apart?

Anybody have additional ideas?

[Jim Keller]

Sorry Will, I completely dissagree with you here, sure fuel starvation on a carbed car stumbles and stutters, but when the sludge starts clogging the sock in the tank on an FI Lancia Zagato or Coupe that requires a constant and un-interupted 39 to 41 PSI, it's like turning it on and off, and it can get violent enough to give you whiplash too, I am very confident with the car sitting a lot over the last 10 years as mentioned and the symptom description, it's the fuel tank. But go ahead and don't bother to check it for free by removing the sending unit and inspecting it, just throw lots of time and money at it replacing parts that are fine till all that is left is the tank! LOL.......I have been thru it too many times on too many FI Betas to not attack the tank first when that symptom pops up

[Will]

Sorry Will, I completely dissagree with you here, sure fuel starvation on a carbed car stumbles and stutters, but when the sludge starts clogging the sock in the tank on an FI Lancia Zagato or Coupe that requires a constant and un-interupted 39 to 41 PSI, it's like turning it on and off, and it can get violent enough to give you whiplash too, I am very confident with the car sitting a lot over the last 10 years as mentioned and the symptom description, it's the fuel tank. But go ahead and don't bother to check it for free by removing the sending unit and inspecting it, just throw lots of time and money at it replacing parts that are fine till all that is left is the tank! LOL.......I have been thru it too many times on too many FI Betas to not attack the tank first when that symptom pops up

OK Jim:

a) You can disagree with me all you want, knock yourdelf out- time will tell what the guy's actual problem is.

b) There is no reason to start by taking apart the tank- the first step is to change the fuel filter (preferably to one of the Fram see-thru FI rated ones) and tap out the old filter on some paper towels. If the filter is not full of crud, neither is the tank. Assuming of course, that the fliter has not already just been changed out. You can also cut the outside of the filter or poke a hole in it and drain out whatever is in there, or cut the thing in half with a tubing cutter.

c) I don't recall telling the guy to change parts at random and just keep throwing money at it until nothing is left but the tank. What I did do is try to clarify what the symptoms were so that a more informed diagnostic could be made- and despite your wealth of personal experience with these cars there are actually OTHER problems besides a clogged fuel tank that can present his symptoms. And although some people would go and drop the tank and rush off to have it rebuilt, I thought it might be prudent to start with a diagnostic- which in this case probably starts with idling the car while moving the ignition wires and trying to find a loose wire.

d) Yes he could remove the tank sender- but in many cases these get pretty fragile over time and are easy to damage in an R&R. And he did not indicate that the severity or frequency of his problem increased at high TO/Load points which is another thing that points away from a clogged tank.

e) Lastly, I did not rule out a clogged tank, but MY personal experience includes electrical faults that can produce the symptoms he described so I'm offering those as POSSIBILITIES.

:)

[richarda]

Grounds, where are they?

Will's schematic shows a ground going to the distibutor housing, I could not find this. What color is it? I did find a yellow with black strip wire going nowhere. It comes out of wireing harness under cowl in engine bay, could this be the ground?

The only gound that I found was from Alt to engine block, shouldn't there be more? I could not find any?

Jim, I intend to do the fuel tank thing at some point but now it is near full, I would prefer to wait until it is near empty.

[DJ]

Grounds, where are they?

Will's schematic shows a ground going to the distibutor housing, I could not find this. What color is it? I did find a yellow with black strip wire going nowhere. It comes out of wireing harness under cowl in engine bay, could this be the ground?

The only gound that I found was from Alt to engine block, shouldn't there be more? I could not find any?

Jim, I intend to do the fuel tank thing at some point but now it is near full, I would prefer to wait until it is near empty.

The distributor ground should be on one of the nuts at the base of the distributor that holds it OR the base plate to the end of the cam housing.

I know you said you checked the dizzy pickup leads but I'd still say to make darn sure you've removed it inspected every single millimeter of the lead and it's insulation. Those things are so darn fragile and even the tiniest crack in the insulation can cause a short.

Also, FWIW, I seem to remember that I found one fairly insignificant error in Will's diagram. I believe that it was the AFM connector that actually has the pins reversed. But I'd need to check continuity again between it and the other ends to verify.

[Will]

There should be two ECU ground wires (brown) with a common ring terminal as drawn, and one other one, as drawn, and they should connect to the studs on the distributor housing and/or intake cam end plate. Or at least, that's where they are in OEM fitment.

The yellow mystery wire with black tracer is a power feed- if it is on the right side near the headlight assembly then it is a plug for a fog light and should have, or should originally have had, a black plastic plug on the end of it to plug into the fog light on cars that had fog lights fitted. There should be a matching one on the other side, I think it's grey but not sure- check the wiring diagram for the car or ask one of the Jims, they might know offhand.

DO make sure the wire is insulated though and not hanging around live in the engine compartment. Or install some fog lights
:D

DJ- it was my intention to draw all connectors on that from the perspective as if you were the device and looking into the wiring harness connector. That said, I could well have made a mistake and if you would be so kind as to verify/notify me I'll be glad to correct it on the drawing!

[1,6 HF]

...b) There is no reason to start by taking apart the tank- the first step is to change the fuel filter (preferably to one of the Fram see-thru FI rated ones) and tap out the old filter on some paper towels. If the filter is not full of crud, neither is the tank. Assuming of course, that the fliter has not already just been changed out. ...

With all due respect, Will, this isn't necessarily true. If the filter sock in the tank is still in place, the tank can be full of sludge and it will not show in the fuel filter--the crud will be intercepted (and the fuel flow stopped) before it leaves the tank.

[richarda]

I found two wires on intake cam side, can't tell color as they are wrapped in black. Would these be the ground?

Should their not be some other ground from block or Trans to frame?

[DJ]

With all due respect, Will, this isn't necessarily true. If the filter sock in the tank is still in place, the tank can be full of sludge and it will not show in the fuel filter--the crud will be intercepted (and the fuel flow stopped) before it leaves the tank.

FWIW, my experience with the typical Beta fuel tank crud is that it's WAY finer than the mesh in that sock and will get through it easily.

[DJ]

I found two wires on intake cam side, can't tell color as they are wrapped in black. Would these be the ground?

Could be. Our resident Beta guys should answer that though.


Should their not be some other ground from block or Trans to frame?

Yes, definitely. Not sure about the Beta configuration but the Scorpion has a ground strap from the differential cover to the body shell.

[Frezer]

The grounds attached to the camcover are indeed wrapped with a black sock.

The ground from trans to body is located under the battery. Just follow the battery ground lead and you will find that one too.

Regards,
Merijn

[Will]

With all due respect, Will, this isn't necessarily true. If the filter sock in the tank is still in place, the tank can be full of sludge and it will not show in the fuel filter--the crud will be intercepted (and the fuel flow stopped) before it leaves the tank.

If the tank sludge suddenly appeared as large particles instead of sloughing off as a fine silt then you'd be correct form an engineering standpoint- but from an experiential perspective I highly doubt you'd ever come across a clogged pickup screen and a clean filter.

[Jim Keller]

The sludge plugs the sock, not ther filter, you may get some brownish silt from the filter, but it is amazing how much that FI sock in the tank filters, it is whats getting plugged. I have BTDT at least 4 times, (different "FI" Betas only) with his exact symptoms, and many of you others have been there at least once.........with the exact symptoms, it also burns out fuel pumps as they run dry and overheat if you keep trying to run it like that, it only happens on the fuel injected cars

I wasn't remarking about you Will when I was trying to be a comical smart a#% about throwing parts/money at it, it was a general comment based on everything people keep pointing at when it apears to me to be the obvious and common just from all the junker and "sat a long time" Betas I have had over the years

Pull the sender, it's super easy on a Zagato/Coupe, run a long screw driver into the bottom of the pickup well and stir, if it gets a milky/brownish sludge stired up, you need to drain the full tank, (I transferr the gas to daily drivers and the lawn mower) and yank the tank for cleaning/pick sock removal/acid cleaning and some sort of linning/coating system like Red Line brand or the like.........but only if you find the iside of the tank a bit rusty and the sludge churns up

Also, if you pull your sender, (as long as it is the original sender, and you don't even have to pull it all the way out for this), and it is rusty or crusty, that will tell you right there it is the tank without going any further, if it's clean as new, bright and shinny metal, with only slight discoloring on the plastics from being in the gas, the tank is most likely fine and you can eliminate it from your list. that's less than a ten minute job to include or exclude it as a problem, nuts holding the thing in are 7mm

[richarda]

Looks like Jim is going to be correct on this one, I did as suggested and pulled the sending unit, (very easy as he said) metal is rusty and when I run my figure inside it comes out rusty.

Any time saving ideas on pulling the tank? Any special order? Do I need to take off the pump and filter before I pull the tank or will they stay?

My plan is first get the tank as empty as possible, then take the bolts lose that hold tank into car, see how far it drops and then disconnect anything else that I see.

Thanks for any ideas.

[richarda]

Most other fuel tanks I have worked on have the sending unit and pick up w sock as one unit, not on the Beta. I guess when I get the tank pulled the locaton of the sock will become ease to spot (I hope).

Can these socks be cleaned? Are they avaiable from suppliers?

[Jim Fierst]

ABSOLUTELY replace all the fuel hoses. They rot from the inside out. The high pressure side going from the pump through the filter and forward requires the FI hose while the return can be standard fuel line.

[richarda]

Sock, What sock?????????

Tank is out, the fuel was very rusty, will clean and treat the tank, BUT no sock.

Does the Beta use a sock on pick up? If so where is it and how do you get to it? The only opening to tank is for the sender and fuel filler?

If no sock that says that their is no filter before the pump, can that be?

[Jim Keller]

There are many threads in this form if you look back that detail from many different view points the struggle to get that sock out, but the easiest way was when I watched my Chevy mechanic friend who used a set of real long needle nose pliers with angle bent end to pull the sock back so you can kinda see it and then he stabbed/ripped/tore it with a long screw driver until he was able to rip it on out with the pliers. It doesn't have to all be removed, just enough to stop plugging the pickup pipe. You do not really need to replace it, the FI filters are so fine, they will catch any particals coming out of the tank in the future. All work has to be done thru the sending unit hole, maybe try shoving a light into the fill pipe to light up the inside of the tank, maybe that could help you see? never tried it though, no sure you could get a light in good enough for that

The sock is on the end of the pickup tube in the well in the bottom, it's in there, keep looking, towards the front of the tank, as it sits in the car that is, and it's pretty small.

I have a good tank and sender for a fee <grin> should have the surface rust wire brushed off the top and painted from being bolted to the trunk floor, but inside is clean and last time I looked, still shinny and you could see lettering from who ever made the steel, also sender looks excellent, nearly new

[richarda]

Still no sock, I have used screw drivers, long needle nose pliers and can find nothing under the circle at bottom of pick up bowl. There is evidence that the tank has been removed at some time in the past (patch in top corner), I am thinking that the pickup screen may have been removed at that time. To check this is it possible to put a wire down the pickup tube and see it come out in bottom of bowl?

If the sock is gone then it could not have been the cause of my run ability problem!!

I had intended to coat the inside of the tank with Red-Kote but until I am certain the sock is gone I have concerns that the Red-Kote would clog it.

[richarda]

"Sock" found, sock destroyed. (at least 40%).I now have additional small mirroe, two long pliers, two new small lights. Anytime you get new tools it can't be all bad.:)

Will continue with Red-Kote.

[davidb]

Can you describe where you found this infamous sock. All I ever
found in my tank was the circular wire mesh on what appears to
be the pick-up canister. Thanks.

[richarda]

It is not the kind of sock you normally see, it is the mesh you describe, but it is not wire, it is very tough and hard to rip out.

[davidb]

Maybe ultra-fine metal screen is a better description. On the
circular pick-up canister. If I found the right screen, mesh,
sock, whatever yes it is very difficult to tear off w/needle
nose pliers. I just hope I found it.

[Jim Keller]

Yup, new tools are never bad! LOL, working on Lancias increased my collection from a carryall box and small roll around to a larger roll around, two large cabinets and three shelving units! ha ha ha...............although I have sold off some of the more expensive and rarely used things, I still have quite a collection of tools I didn't have prior to getting the Lancia fever

Keep your eyes open and ear to the tracks, the pot is coming to a boil, rumor has it, someone you all know and somewhat trust may be dabbling in Lancia again for the good of all soon......time will tell

[richarda]

Sucess, tank was installed today, added gas and took for ride. Ran great.

Thanks to all who helped with info, I doubt that I would have found the "sock" without your help. It was the problem

[1,6 HF]

Fantastic! Glad you got it worked out.


If nothing else it confirms that not every tank sludge problem will be obvious from the filter. Of course, as Jim Keller pointed out, some of us already knew that, from an experiential perspective...

[PAV]

Nice Drawing Will - Thx!!!


Actually, the ECU is fed from a device called a "dual relay" which is just that, it's a Bosch part that looks like two large relays in tandem in a sort of monobloc base. And it is yet another part to fail, although IMO more likely to fail completely.

I strongly suspect that you'll find your problem is due to engine movement and a wire making/breaking on the ignition module, one of the three grounds to the distributor housing (cam end plate) , or possibly even a HT leak that is dumping enough spark to overcurrrent the module.

Here is my homebrew schematic of the stock wiring harness for the FI system:

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/543/BoschFI.jpg

[PAV]

This may be my issue on the FI as well.
I picked up the bottom of the 76 Gas Station's Premium Fuel tank but was too late it would seem to keep the water or sludge I may have got from entering.
They thought I should keep pumping, that there'd be no problem. Darned idiots letting that Premium Tank go down. I'll never fill there again!

It took a few hours of driving before all went south on the zagato!

Will pull the bottom out of the zagato tank and see if I can't clean it.
Do diligence first and clean all contacts.

Thanks!

Paul