"Matching numbers". What does this really mean

[Old Man Wattsy]

A car ad “Matching numbers. Complete and painstaking renovation of this icon. (All) components refurbished or replaced……” got me thinking as it included both ‘matching numbers’ and ‘replaced’.
Now I have had a heavy duty wheel barrow since ‘75. The tray has been replaced three times, the wheels twice, bearing once, 9 ply tray support once and the handles rebuilt. The only original parts are the steel legs and the axle. But its still a good wheel barrow and the current tray has the original brand name stampted into it.
Most of the Fulvia Zagota Sport is numbered to help assembly after painting but many panels need to be replaced or partial replacement panels welded in as part of the renovation process.
So, what does it really mean for any car to have “matching numbers”, is there an official defintion, what parts and panel needs to be matching and is it brand specific?

[hybrid]

The term "matching numbers" means that the chassis serial number and engine block serial number are specific to the particular car. If the motor was changed, even though it came from the same type of car with same type of motor, but it was not factory/assembly line installed then it's no longer a matching numbers car. Matching numbers is highly desirable when it comes to collectible vehicles.

[1,6 HF]

Mick,

Hybrid's basically right. Essentially it means the chassis has its original drive train; generally speaking (there are exceptions), those are the numbers that match in a 'matching numbers' cars. In the case of some marques/models, the engine serial number literally matches the chassis serial number. But 'matching numbers' also applies when the chassis serial number and engine serial number are different, but both match the factory build sheet.

And generally speaking, 'matching numbers' is considered desirable in a collectible car, but again there are exceptions. For example, a race car that had its engine changed, and then went on to win with its non-original engine, may well be more valuable with its historic race-winning engine than its original. But how important all this is will vary with the marque and model.

It's also true that more original material is generally better than less. So, to answer your restoration question, as a rule, the most preferable option is to repair an original panel, the second best is to patch (or partially replace) an original panel with new material of the same type, and by far the least desirable option is to replace the panel altogether.

In this regard, auto restoration is slowly catching up with art/antique restoration, where preservation is considered preferable to restoration. It used to be that people would think nothing of throwing away rusted or damaged body panels and replacing them with new ones, but attitudes towards preserving original materials have changed a lot in the past decade or so.

[hybrid]

Great explanation Ed. :-) Btw, I noticed that your location is in North Hollywood. Where do you buy parts for a Lancia over there? Specifically a water pump for an 89 Delta Integrale 8V. I'm from the Philippines but often travel to the USA to vacation.

[shaun pond]

Matching numbers is highly desirable when it comes to collectible vehicles.

Not sure that I agree...

A number of manufacturers of very interesting cars didn't bother to match engine numbers and chassis numbers during manufacture, and so it seems a bit odd to fixate on that as a test of authenticity and value for those that did.

Moreover, focusing on matching numbers seems to have the effect of discouraging the actual use of the vehicles. Having paid a premium for a matching set of numbers, owners for some reason seem loathe to actually drive them. So they end up getting trailered about to shows, or hidden away in garages.

I find this sad. For me, cars are about motion, mobility, driving; more akin to a musical instrument, which is meant to be played, than to a stamp in a philatelic collection, which is more valued if it is unfranked and pristine.

Regards

[SubGothius]

Deltas weren't ever factory-imported to the US (there's a very few privately imported examples around with "clever" title/registration), but Chris Obert at www.fiatplus.com in Santa Cruz would probably have the connections to obtain Delta parts from Italy for you, might even have something suitable in stock (I've seen a motley collection of non-US-model parts in his old pricelists before his Web site was revamped a few years ago), but be prepared to pay top dollar, might still be easier than trying to get anything in the Philippines anyway.

[hybrid]

Not sure that I agree...


Moreover, focusing on matching numbers seems to have the effect of discouraging the actual use of the vehicles. Having paid a premium for a matching set of numbers, owners for some reason seem loathe to actually drive them. So they end up getting trailered about to shows, or hidden away in garages.


Regards

I somehow agree with you on this Shaun. I've got a matching numbers 66 corvette with a 427 cu.in. L72 big block. The motor is in excellent condition but to drive it around on weekdays is a chore cause it's a very temperamental motor that likes to heat up in traffic. A small block 327 would actually be more driveable in my country.
And yes i do trailer it to shows.

[hybrid]

Deltas weren't ever factory-imported to the US (there's a very few privately imported examples around with "clever" title/registration), but Chris Obert at www.fiatplus.com (http://www.fiatplus.com) in Santa Cruz would probably have the connections to obtain Delta parts from Italy for you, might even have something suitable in stock (I've seen a motley collection of non-US-model parts in his old pricelists before his Web site was revamped a few years ago), but be prepared to pay top dollar, might still be easier than trying to get anything in the Philippines anyway.

Thanks for the tip Tyson. I really appreciate it. :) I'll send Chris Obert an email to inquire on parts availability.
It's literally impossible to find parts for a Lancia in the Philippines. I recently came from Hong Kong and Singapore and they too don't carry parts for integrale's.

[shaun pond]

I somehow agree with you on this Shaun. I've got a matching numbers 66 corvette with a 427 cu.in. L72 big block. The motor is in excellent condition but to drive it around on weekdays is a chore cause it's a very temperamental motor that likes to heat up in traffic. A small block 327 would actually be more driveable in my country.
And yes i do trailer it to shows.

Hi Manuel,

From personal experience, I'd say that a small block is more driveable in any country.

And I didn't mean to imply that everyone should drive their interesting vehicle all the time. For very old cars, or most all race cars, that's simply not possible. And, as you suggest, modern road conditions in urban areas aren't the best for 40+ year old cars; a 7 liter Corvette clearly wouldn't be much fun in dense traffic.

But I'd like to think that you try to sneak away with it on weekends once and awhile, find a stretch of uncrowded road, and so have a chance to hear that motor open up and feel that wave of torque.

Regards,

Shaun

[hybrid]

Hi Manuel,

From personal experience, I'd say that a small block is more driveable in any country.

And I didn't mean to imply that everyone should drive their interesting vehicle all the time. For very old cars, or most all race cars, that's simply not possible. And, as you suggest, modern road conditions in urban areas aren't the best for 40+ year old cars; a 7 liter Corvette clearly wouldn't be much fun in dense traffic.

But I'd like to think that you try to sneak away with it on weekends once and awhile, find a stretch of uncrowded road, and so have a chance to hear that motor open up and feel that wave of torque.

Regards,

Shaun

Very true Shaun. Very early morning blasts down the freeways is a norm for most enthusiasts over here. It also helps that the police are quite understanding in regards to speeding. :)

[1,6 HF]

Great explanation Ed. :-) Btw, I noticed that your location is in North Hollywood. Where do you buy parts for a Lancia over there? Specifically a water pump for an 89 Delta Integrale 8V. I'm from the Philippines but often travel to the USA to vacation.

As Tye explained, we never got the Delta here. The best English-speaking suource I know of (by reoputation only--never done business with them) is John Whalley in the UK http://www.whalley-integrale.uk.com/index2.html
They seem to specialize in Integrales, and would be worth a try; probably a much better bet than any US source. Good luck.

I have to say that I pretty much agree with Shaun; for a lot of marques, the market tends to favor matching numbers. But, as with ultra-low mileage, it can get so obsessive that people lose sight of the main point. And, with Fulvias like Shaun & I own, there's virtually no such thing as an engine serial number that matches its chassis number. My HF is chassis number 871 and engine number 804. And for Fulvias there are no factory records available to confirm that it left the factory that way.

BTW, Actually I'm in West Hollywood (other side of thes hills from North Hollywood). Let me know if you're ever in the area; we'll see if we can't get together with a couple of lancisti.

[hybrid]

Thank you Ed. Actually i have bought some parts from John Whalley but the freight from the UK to the Philippines is extremely expensive. Since i've got friends and relatives over in your country it's a lot easier and more economical for me to buy it from the States.
Although i did find another source which is cheaper and the parts are original. The fellows name is Laszlo Torjay and he's from Hungary. I recently bought a set of camshafts, gaskets and a couple of sensors from him.

Manuel

[1,6 HF]

I'm sure there are plenty of European sources for Integrales spares. And I'm sure that shipping from Europe can be expensive. But there probably won't be any US sources that actually have Delta spares on their shelves--they'll just turn around and order from the European sources, which means the same shipping costs will likely be built into their prices.

[davidb]

Astute observation Ed. I'm highly confident some of Obert's
Scorp parts either come from TMH directly or some of Rod's
own suppliers. TMH was outta struts awhile back so I ordered
from Chris, identical medium blue color. Comparing prices I
intuited/calculated shipping costs [England to CA.] plus a profit
for Chris, ballpark close. I'm not dissing Obert, he had the struts
& I wanted to move on w/my Scorp restore so he got my money.
So yes if we can find a European part source ourselves we can
[perhaps] save some shipping cost & a USA vendors markup.

[hybrid]

Ed and David,

This here's the info on the fellow I buy parts for my integrale from. His prices are very reasonable. As a matter of fact he is charging me 75 euro for a water pump + 28 euro to ship it to the Philippines (priority). Hope this info helps.

Company name :Torjay-Tuning Ltd.
E-mail :info@torjay-tuning.hu
Phone number (+36) 30/242-2666
Fax (+36) 1-306-5009