thinking of buying a delta

[stu205]

Hi guys

been thinking of buying a delta for a year or so now but having seen them at auto italia im now rearly thinking about it!!

ive got a 205 gti at the mo and us it every day 60 miles a day!!

so what im after is what is the best delta to go for ive not got meggga bucks to spend prob 5-6k ish and what are the common problems to look out for

:D

[chrisc]

Bad news - 5 or 6k is not megabucks when dealing with deltas (assuming you are including integrales anyway).

Roughly equivalent to the 205 gti (1.9 at least), is the delta hf turbo, then theres the shopping trolley gties and lxs, then theres the rumoured to be awful hf 4wd, then you have 8v integrales which are great, 16v integrales which are also great, and evolution models, which you probably wont be able to afford. Integrales are mightily expensive to run, if you havent got 2k or so to spend each year on servicing and maintenance then you will be in for some trouble.

imho the best value for money is the hf turbo as they can still be found cheaply, although id switch the headlights to 16v units as they look that much better.

Search for Evocorner forum. that is where the integrale owners can be found. Dont misspell integrale there or you will be hung drawn and quartered.

[rossocorsa]

all integrales within your budget are likely to be suffering from the ageing process (like us all!!) I think it would be best to go for an 8 valve car or the unfashionable g-kat versions which are 8 valve engines with cat in 16 valve or evo one bodyshells the 8 valve is a sturdy reliable unit better in this respect than the 16 valve, these less pure versions are also cheaper to buy and if they are on a j plate or earlier you can still legally take the cat off. You must however realise that these cars are sophisticated and will not tolerate bad or ill judged maintainence they are all require much more dedication to use regularly

[A1.6HPE]

Hello,
My daily driver is an 8V Delta integrale. My run to work and back is about 15 miles so the high fuel consumption doesn't bother me too much, but at 60 miles a day it certainly would. No matter which Delta you get, 2wd or 4wd if it has a turbo charger the fuel consumption will be about 20 - 25 mpg. Also check insurance rates before doing anything!

As Alan says, the low priced cars will be reaching end of life - check the rear edge of the roof and the rear wheel arches (inside) for rust.
Will you be carrying out maintenance yourself or is there a good motor engineer close at hand? The 8V car is just about home-maintainable but not the 16V cars.

If you have had carefree motoring with the Peugeot then do not expect a Delta to be the same.

If my comments seem harsh - I am only being realistic - I am as much of a Lancia enthusiast as it is possible to be. So is Alan Cooper and he does not have an integrale - why is that? Because they are "high maintenance.

Apologies to Alan for assuming his opinion! Deltas are great cars, but...

Leo

[stu205]

cheers for the tips guys still hasent put me of maybe im a sucker for punishment!!

fuel consumption of 20-25 mpg sounds heaven sent!!!!! i get 18 on a good day as im running twin 45 webers! which kinda puts the pug on the same level of day to day problems as what a lancia owner has and i get stung on insurance because of it too the delta is cheeper even for an evo1

as for the 8v v's 16v thing ive seen the engine bay of a 16v and there aint room to breath in there!!

so just clear one more thing up for me the pug has an 8v but i know poeple with 16v and as far as bhp is concerned there aint much different and as mine is lighter it tracks better is it the same with deltas and does the bias split make a big difference in thelater 16v??

thanks again!! :D

[rossocorsa]

replying to leo yes you are right that sensibilities dictated the use of a delta hpe as opposed to a 'grale but this still requires some dedication..... just had the bearings in the balancer shaft belt disintegrate , no bearings there at all when I got the covers off luckily it looks as if the timing belt has not jumped its timing ...this is perhaps an indication of the running problems with the 16valve engine though

[A1.6HPE]

Stu205 - sounds like you will fit the Lancia scene very well!
Alan/Rossacorsa - oh dear! sounds like you sussed that just in time.

The 16 Valve engines have a lot more power and torque but the payback comes in the higher maintenance. A 16V Thema turbo has essentialy the same engine but they use a wider and therefore more durable timing belt. There is not enough space for the wider belt to be fitted (as standard) so the Delta has to have the belt replaced more frequently. Presumably the Nuova Deltas have the wider belt? The recently published integrale history notes that the reason for the change in torque split was due to the extra weight of the 16V engine - the marketing department turned that into "improved handling". Also the heat build up under the bonnet is greater with the 16V engine, hence the extra vents on the EVOs. I would not consider having a 16V Delta unless I could afford to pay for service work on it. I have a 16V Thema Turbo and I live in fear of engine problems! BTW the Thema is quicker in a straight line than my Delta (206 bhp versus 185bhp) so if you want to outdrag Subarus then it will have to be an EVO version. The 8V is quick enough for me and can out run most Subarus.

Ciao for now, Leo

[chrisc]

Just to make it absolutely clear - bodywork is something it doesnt sound like youve figured on too much. From my experience with 205s, they dont rust unless harshly provoked. Deltas rust - if youve not owned a car that really rusts be prepared. Like proper rust. And if they dont rust and youre busy driving them, you get stress cracks in the bodyshell which have to be repaired.

Ps. all my comments are made with no ownership experience of a delta.

[rossocorsa]

Leo I think you are incorrect on this one they all use the same belt infact from my knowledge of various failures I believe that for reasons unknown Thema belts appear to fail more often than other 16 V derivatives. The delta hpe appears to be quicker in a straight line than an evo 2 except for the first bit from a standstill when the 4wd traction gives it about a second advantage but really it is hardly important. For daily use the hpe is more comfortable and has more space in the rear seats but the inconvenience of 2 doors. Still has diabolical town and city mpg but not too bad on a run 29/30 mpg. Considering it has the same basic underpinnings as the rather lacklustre handling dedra it handles remarkably well and the quick steering is simply excellent. the car also causes a lot of scratching (petrol) heads as no one knows what it is!

correction! 16 valve grales use a different belt but evos use the same belt as all the other cars

[rossocorsa]

yes I agree this is more and more an issue with 'grales they are all pretty old now it has to be remembered that they don't have some magic halo that stops them rusting compared with other lancias. However I do not believe that they are really much or any worse than many other cars of the same era although they can rust in some slightly odd places like that roof problem.

[rossocorsa]

about a year ago replaced the original belts on the hpe now the normal part number for the timing belt is 7774591 however the belt that came off has the number 46461100 it has the same number of teeth but they are of a more 'conventional' apperance than those on the normal 16v belt. This part (46461100) shows up as available on the eper parts dvd but doesn't show any cars that it is proper to! All very strange anyone have an explanation ?????? the HPE was made in late 1998 incidentally.
I should add that the HPE is listed as requiring 7774591 on the disc and this particular part number has been in use since the introduction of the series 3 thema in late 92

[rossocorsa]

http://www.lancisti.net/albums/album73/DSCF4417_001.sized.jpghttp://www.lancisti.net/albums/album73/DSCF4418.thumb.jpghttp://www.lancisti.net/albums/album73/DSCF4421.thumb.jpghttp://www.lancisti.net/albums/album73/DSCF4420.thumb.jpg

enough said :cry:

[Shant Fabricatorian]

Correct me if I'm wrong stu205 but you seem to be interested in the original Delta, perhaps an HF turbo? Out of interest, have you looked at a non-HF series 2 Delta (like a 2.0 16V, 142bhp or a 1.8 VVT, 130bhp)?

Main reason I suggest it is that it's fundamentally a much newer car (the original was launched in 1979, the nuova in 1993) and if you're going to use it as a daily driver it stands a good chance of standing up much better. A Delta II won't be 100% reliable but it's more durable, at this stage of its life, than a series 1, and LHD shouldn't be that much of a handicap.

Chris, I didn't think the HF 4WD was such a bad car - it's the predecessor to the Integrales, and got great reviews when it was launched. Very rare these days, and overshadowed by the Integrale, so I think they're a bit undervalued. Perhaps you're confusing it with the HF Turbo?

Incidentally Alan, do you have any ideas about why the Delta handles so much better than the Dedra? As far as I can tell the Dedra is a booted Delta, or if you prefer, the Delta is a bootless Dedra. They have identical wheelbases, almost identical track, and same basic suspension. Was the Dedra(s) you've driven early ones? Maybe they adopted the Delta's suspension settings when it was launched, or even during the facelift in 1994/6?

[rossocorsa]

I'm comparing against my old dedra turbo. the delta hpe has a much wider front track than the dedra (hence the flared arches)plus the super quick steering rack (2.2 turns lock to lock) wider wheels with lower profile tyres and I presume significantly different settings for springs dampers and thicker front anti roll bar. The difference is quite big the hpe inspires some confidence where the dedra always had me slightly wondering. I would agree that later dedras may well have benefited from some of these mods but they were still stuck with a much narrower track.

[rossocorsa]

[quote="Shant Fabricatorian"]Correct me if I'm wrong stu205 but you seem to be interested in the original Delta, perhaps an HF turbo? Out of interest, have you looked at a non-HF series 2 Delta (like a 2.0 16V, 142bhp or a 1.8 VVT, 130bhp)?

I think the trouble with this is it's simply not an integrale, also the 1.8vvt is also troublesome particularly the variable valve timing variator and the non-turbo 16v suffers the same cam belt ills I would say that for most the only Delta 2 to have is an HF. For the ultimate rarity try to find a Delta 2 5 door hf these weren't made for long and are pretty rare I was told they only made a few hundred

[Shant Fabricatorian]

That's interesting. A quick dig around some stats revealed the following:

Dedra track: 1436mm (front)/1415mm (rear)
Delta II (1.6 and 1.8 VVT) track: 1439mm (front)/1415mm (rear)
Delta II (1.9 TD) track: 1475mm (front)/1415mm (rear)
Delta II (2.0 turbo) track: 1486mm (front)/1415mm (rear)

I'm curious - does that mean normal (non-turbo, non-diesel) Deltas handled like Dedras, all of which were narrow track? The Dedra got panned for its handling at launch, but the Delta was regarded as being as good as any of its rivals (like R19, 306, ZX, Golf, etc). Maybe that's the difference - the Delta was being compared with family hatches, the Dedra with the 3-Series.

Also while we're at it regarding nuova Delta questions, the HPE HF (is that the right order, or is it officially HF HPE?) uses a turbo version of the 142bhp 2.0 16V, right? So my question is, is that a modified Integrale motor, or a turboed version of the Tipo 16V Sedicivalvole's? Indeed, is there any difference between the Integrale engine and the Tipo's, apart from the turbo and intercooler? I'd always thought there was but I could very well be wrong.

Might be worth making a separate thread for this actually.

[EVO92]

Guys,

First of all i would never buy another HF Turbo (I've had 2), most are scrapped, the rest are either due to be scrapped or mint/show cars that are so highly priced you just as well buy a Grale... anyway sounds like Stu is looking for a quicker car than the 205 which we all know is renowned for its handling! yes a HF turbo will out run it easy in a straight line but in the bends it will have no chance....(This is most certainly where a grale rules :D

I would certainly buy a 8v grale, less worrys with the cam belt (More on that in a mo) and you can get a decent one for 3grand and keep the rest as emergency fund!. Yes a 16v has a little more power but in standard form due to the less weight of the 8v there is hardly any difference in performance. The only real benefit from a 16v is the engine is easier to tune, a well written chip will take a 8v upto 235hp where a 16v will easily produce >270hp. If you like the look of the 16v bonnet as rossocorsa mentioned the 8VKat models are also very good!


I'm not so sure about this wider belt thing on a Thema 16vTurbo engine, i have a series 3 engine in pieces in my garage (Bought cheap for spares) and everything looks identical to my Evo/16v engine.... :?

The early 16v grales were recalled to have a stronger belt and round tooth profile pulleys fitted as a lot broke their belts very quickly.... Since then all grale 16v and Evo's use the same belts (Rossocorsa maybe you had an early belt fitted to your HF somehow??)

The Basic 16v Grale engine (Forgetting Turbo's etc) is the same as the following:
Thema Turbo 16v (Not series 3 as they have small valves for the VIS system).
Fiat Coupe Turbo 16v (Except the valves guides are not brass)
Nuova Delta HF Turbo and HPE HF Turbo.
Kappa Turbo 16v
The differences in power are all down to different turbos and tuning...

Maybe a lot of the difference in handling between a Dedra and Nuova Delta is down to the weight, i know my misses Dedra handles like sh*t but put that down to the fact its a big family car which is very much different than my Evo :D

[rossocorsa]

after Leos post I checked the parts dvd and it is true that 16 valve integrales have a different belt but ALL other 16v cars utilise a common belt type I can only presume that before they put the Delta on steroids with the evo there wasn't enough space under the bonnet to fit this modified belt that was first used in late 1992. very very early 16v Themas used a different belt and pulleys but they were all recalled due to big big problems and upgraded to later spec. Themas still break their belts fairly often though.......as regards my mystery belt it is not a part number that has ever been superseded and its the one that fiat fitted at the factory as I've had the car fron new!

[rossocorsa]

Maybe a lot of the difference in handling between a Dedra and Nuova Delta is down to the weight, i know my misses Dedra handles like sh*t but put that down to the fact its a big family car which is very much different than my Evo :D

The nouva delta is a least as heavy as a dedra the extra length on a dedra is all boot which is mostly fresh air the interior space in a new delta is the same as is the wheelbase. I think it's simply down to the wider front track and a lot of fine tuning on the part of the Lancia engineers. It isn't perfect and the car is both a lot taller than an evo and lacks the traction afforded by 4 wd for normal motoring it's pretty damn good though. My dedra turbo that I had a few years ago wasn't exactly bad but always felt uneasy as it turned into corners, it would also start to get a bit lurchy in a series of bends not wanting to change direction ok for a 'normal' car terrible for a lancia a beta sedan beats it hands down

[vvieri]

The durability of the 16v cam belt can be improved using a 25mm-wide round-tooth belt from Fiat Ducato 1.9 Diesel engine. Camwheels must be modified a little in order to change their offset, and a wider cambelt pulley for the crankshaft must be taken from the Ducato engine as well. However, some 16v engines had the wider pulleys from the factory.