Tired Springs? [Archive] - Lancisti Community

davidb

17th May 2009, 02:48 PM

After 40 months of re-furb, $20K & 1K+ posts I just drove my
'82 LBZ back from my mechanic's shop [yes I know it's Sunday].
3 miles max. back home, barely made it, had to stop twice, fuel
starvation, rides like a coal cart. I was hoping for a more positive
post after all this time. Do springs get tired? I have new struts I
bought from I.A.P. long ago. I did the suspension myself long ago
& everything went back together perfectly. Do these things need
"settle" back in? The fuel starvation really pissed me off. I replaced
the sender several months ago & never found that famous intake
sock. The damn "new" fuel pump whirrrs like crazy. The one Keller
recommends from AutoZone. All that said things could be worse
[har-har]: the ZF P.S. did NOT leak as I feared. The cooling system
didn't explode, fan worked properly. The new exhaust system vibrates
like crazy [shields]. The throttle bell crank sticks near the T.P.S..
It's Summer I want to drive the car & now ALL this? Oh yeah my
Scorpion is ready to head to the body shop after a similiar amount of
time & money. Interested buyers or suggestions appreciated.

1,6 HF

17th May 2009, 05:03 PM

... rides like a coal cart. I was hoping for a more positive
post after all this time. Do springs get tired? I have new struts I
bought from I.A.P. long ago. I did the suspension myself long ago
& everything went back together perfectly. Do these things need
"settle" back in? ...

Springs do get tired. But typically, coil springs get softer--not harder, as your "coal cart" description suggests.

So it's possible that the problem isn't the springs. When you reassembled the suspension, I assume you replaced all the bushings. When you did so, did you preload the suspension, or assemble unloaded? If you reassembled everything unloaded, this may be your problem. Bushings should be positioned and tightened with the suspension preloaded. It's possible to get away without doing so, but it can compromise the compliance of the bushings, which could cause the symptoms you're experiencing.

davidb

18th May 2009, 01:41 PM

Ed: You may have a point there as I DID tighten the new front "A"
arms [w/new bushings] on the ground. Rear suspension I think not.
All new transverse links rear, obviously w/new bushings. Those I
tightened up in the air. The rear feels worse than the front: coal
cart effect. Trunk empty of course. Time to find a lift, wheels,
suspension loaded & loosen & re-tite the thru bolts on the tranverse
links. It's been years but I remember Betas having a very supple
ride. My suspension is all new. Feels like a 914 I drove years ago:
coal cart. This Beta should NOT feel this way! Thanks again.

1,6 HF

18th May 2009, 02:23 PM

David,

A Beta should indeed have a supple ride. Based on your description, I'm fairly certain you'll find that the rear bushings are the problem. Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.

SubGothius

18th May 2009, 10:59 PM

If you've got Koni (or similar aftermarket) adjustable struts, you may also want to make sure they're set for fully soft rather than fully stiff. Regarding Konis in particular, I gather even the fully-soft setting is still plenty stiff for street driving and certainly stiffer than stock, so you'd only ever want to stiffen them up any further for track use.

len_newstrum

19th May 2009, 01:24 AM

davidb

19th May 2009, 03:36 AM

Will

19th May 2009, 04:52 AM

Check the FPR and hang in there David- your other problem could be as simple as tire overpressure.

davidb

19th May 2009, 09:38 AM

PAV

19th May 2009, 09:39 AM

Gez Len don't say that! Those new transverse links I got from Di Fatta
weren't cheap. Nor fun to install. Only driven it 95 miles thus far. I
pray they'll be okay once loosened & re-tited [loaded]. I've still got
other fish to fry. The A/C condensor is leaking. Be the 4TH time I've
pulled the fan, radiator & condensor. I've got the famous fuel starvation
bucking bronco syndrome + sundry other issues. 40 months & still
fighting. If this keeps up it's Prozac time for me. Sighhhhhhhh.

Hi Dave: sorry to hear about your Beta issues, I can relate to having a beta which is problematic, and me who may have caused a few of my own issues.

You have gone this far, you may as well go all the way with it!

I'd assume you got all your FI issues knocked out, checked your fuel lines for clogs etc.

I wonder if you can have airleak somewhere before you get to Fuel Pump like you can get in a SCorp. Different animal, different placement of pump I'd guess.

From what we know, if you run a Beta fuelpump without gas, you can burn it up; you perhaps know all this.

Suspension: mine runs pretty squishy. Aftermarket can be done for these cars. BB does SPAX inserts and springs. If you want a better ride all things being equal, this may be a good way to go.

Hopefully you will be OK!

PAV

1,6 HF

19th May 2009, 09:45 AM

Okay: to Will, FPR is what, fuel pressure regulator? Tire pressure is
okie-dokie. To Len: I jacked the ass end up this Morning, lowered it
down on bricks, crawled under & loosened anything that felt too tight.
All the 17 MM bolts, suspension bolts/nuts are more free. Only thing I
could not loosen were the 19 MM anti-sway bar bushing bolt/nut,
bottom of the rear hub carrier. The outboard nut is buried. Tight
is an understatement, offset open end wrench needed I guess.
W/a bushing there it's gotta be somewhat loose too. Otherwise the
sway bar would act rigid. Clunk, clunk = coal cart. What next?

David,

It occurs to me that you said the car had been sitting for 40 months or so. If it's been sitting on its tires, without being moved periodically, it's always possible that the tires have gone out of round--this could also produce the 'clunky' ride you're experiencing. But, of course, if that's the explanation, you'd expect similar symptoms at the front.

davidb

19th May 2009, 11:28 AM

Thanks PAV. At this point in time I'm just supremely frustrated.
I just drove it around after the rear suspsnsion loosening w/o any
positive results. It's still a disappointing bouncy, clunky guy. The
newish struts can't be bad, the links are all new, bushings too.
I can't feature the springs being bad. To spend more money &
tear this apart again for new springs + the $$$$ for same w/o
an improvement in ride? I really miss that fine, supple Beta
suspensions I had years ago when I bought new ones, back when.
This one ain't cutting the mustard. I'm beginning to think of driving
as it is: piece of junk. Sad state of affairs . . .

len_newstrum

19th May 2009, 08:23 PM

David,

It occurs to me that you said the car had been sitting for 40 months or so. If it's been sitting on its tires, without being moved periodically, it's always possible that the tires have gone out of round--this could also produce the 'clunky' ride you're experiencing. But, of course, if that's the explanation, you'd expect similar symptoms at the front.Well, yes and no. Yes , it could be an out of round tire, but no, it doesn't have to more than one tire.

The story on my Beta:

It spent 10 years asleep under a tarp in an honest-to-god blackberry patch, after which it spent a couple of years in my garage waiting for me to get a round tuit. Eventually I got it running to the point where I committed to actually making it fully functional (spurred on by the fact that my daily runner had 300,000 miles on it in and the body and weather seals were falling apart). Just to find out what all was going to be needed, I put a set of new tires on it and drove it just enough to identify most of the problems. That is when I made a big mistake. I should have put it on jack stands, but didn't. One of tires had a slow leak, and every few weeks it would go flat.

Retirement finally arrived and my daughter graduated college so I had the time and money to do the restoration. I relicenced it and found that I had a really bad wheel bounce that a static balance of all the wheels didn't cure. I checked all the wheels for axial wobble (i.e., bent wheel) using a dial indicator, but they were all less than .040 inches total indicator reading at the rim, which shouldn't be noticeable. Then I checked the radius of the tires at several points and voila! The tire that had been going flat regularly had a significant flat spot.

A little more sleuthing revealed that the tires had a nylon cord layer under their steel belts. Fifty years ago nylon cords were top-of-the line, but it was common for them to develop a flat spot if they sat even overnight. You had to keep your teeth clenched in the morning to avoid chipping one. After a couple of miles the nylon would heat up and they would go round again. This apparently what had happened to the tire that sat almost flat for almost ten years--except that it was in spades. When I relicenced it last December snow was on the ground, so it never warmed up enough lose the set.

After contemplating replacing the old, but brand new tires, I decided that I would go ahead with repainting etc and then drive it some more when the weather was warmer. It worked. The bounce is almost entirely gone--barely perceptible--and I expect now that we have had a couple of days in the 70s one good trip in the summer heat should give it the final cure.:cheers:

40 months and you are getting discouraged? C'mon, what's the hurry!

1,6 HF

19th May 2009, 11:26 PM

Well, yes and no. Yes , it could be an out of round tire, but no, it doesn't have to more than one tire...

A little more sleuthing revealed that the tires had a nylon cord layer under their steel belts. Fifty years ago nylon cords were top-of-the line, but it was common for them to develop a flat spot if they sat even overnight. You had to keep your teeth clenched in the morning to avoid chipping one. After a couple of miles the nylon would heat up and they would go round again. This apparently what had happened to the tire that sat almost flat for almost ten years--except that it was in spades. When I relicenced it last December snow was on the ground, so it never warmed up enough lose the set.

You're right--I should have said "one or more tires" rather than "the tires". But that's kinda picky for someone who has 50-year-old tires on their Beta...

SubGothius

20th May 2009, 03:56 AM

Re: irregular idle and bucking at light throttle, I think this is the thread you want to read:
http://lancisti.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1464

On later models like your '82, the ends of the rear antiroll bar should be held to the hub carrier with a simple nut'n'bolt (nut on the outboard side) running thru the bushing flanked by some large washers. It seems sensible that this bolt should be free to rotate within the bushing sleeve somehow, but I haven't disassembled it myself to see exactly how this is permitted with a fully-tightened nut, whether it's a special shouldered bolt or what... :confused:

davidb

20th May 2009, 04:26 AM

I conscientiously raised the car every couple months & gave the
tires a spin. I know how tires, particularly NEW ones, can flat
spot if left sitting. Doing same w/the Scorp. occassionally. Ain't
that. The upper & lower spring rubbers looked okay,all 4 corners,
so back in they went w/the the new struts. Pushing down on the
bumpers, shocks feel fine. I don't want to do new springs as: I
doubt that's it, don't want to tear it apart again/spend the add.
money & find that wasn't the problem. Plus I think the only new
springs out there are lower ones & I'm not getting any younger:
ingress/egress. The rear feels a tad worse than the front but both
ends, well the ride ain't what it should be w/all new components.
Just too clunky, like I said a 914-ish coal cart ride. Were it not for
the fact I had 3 NEW Betas I wouldn't know something ain't right
w/this one. Repeating: totally lacks that supple,smooth Beta ride.
Initially I thought: "She'll bed herself in after some miles." After
100 mi. w/o any improvement something's not right.

KeppelmanJ

20th May 2009, 07:50 AM

David, I would be very frustrated too. As you know I have a newish Beta at 48K miles and that supple ride you are describing, along with its subtle, lively, response to road surfaces, is still the delight of driving it. If the springs are original OEM stuff and the tires are good, I would pull a strut and check it out. See how it moves. I have a couple of NOS front ones here and we could compare how they feel. If in good shape on the car you should be able to walk up to one, front or rear, corner and give it a good bounce. It should go up and down easily on the first push, seemingly with little resistance, and stiffen to nicely damped on the second and subsequent. What happens if you try that?

davidb

20th May 2009, 08:33 AM

This just gets weirder by the day. Okay: knee on back bumper,
both corners, car bounces freely. Although no noticable resistance
on 2ND + subsequent "bounces". Move to the front bumper, try
bouncing same, front end of the car barely moves, almost zero.
As tho there was a solid steel rod there instead of a shock/strut
assembly w/a spring on top. Are front shock inserts valved stronger
because of all the weight up there, engine, etc.? Don't know al-
though that kinda makes sense. You don't want the front bobbing
up & down w/"weak", less resistive valving. Like said: weird . . .

davidb

20th May 2009, 09:33 AM

Okay [again]. Just spoke to Bob @ Vicks. Re: the lack of movement
on the front struts. They gotta be cycled, compressed & released after
all this time. Implied struts [the shock pistons] don't like lack of move-
ment. Implied move 'em before install [after prolonged storage], get
'em installed, drive it to free 'em up. As in don't put 'em in, wait 40+
months before driving it as I have. This makes sense to me. So either
I take the front struts back out & cycle them orrrrrr I jump up & down
on my brand new hood toward the leading edge to loosen the front
shock insert piston valving so it works as it should. Whaddya think?

1,6 HF

20th May 2009, 09:40 AM

Or just drive it, and put up with the 'coal cart' ride for a while, to get them cycling. But there's a very finite number of possibilities, and you've dealt with everything bu the struts. So, coupled with your jounce test, that sounds like the problem.

davidb

20th May 2009, 10:16 AM

Thanks Ed. I need a different hobby. The thought just occurred to
me that I might have accidentally swapped the springs: front to
rear or vice-versa. Or my mechanic. All 4 struts were apart @
the same time for bead blasting/painting the springs. I checked
the Mitchell manual and they are [DUH!] different part #s. Seems
to me the front springs should be softer w/more compliance w/all
that weight. Rear springs stronger to accept a trunk full of stuff.
As it is now the rear bumper moves freely, the front is pretty much
rock solid. I dunno maybe the other way around. I wonder what was
what back when: front strong, back weak. I agree driving should
free up any new, "sticky" shock valving if that's the issue. I just
smell a rat here. Bad part, part in the wrong place or my own
idiocy. The solution is hiding in the back of my mind/head as opposed
to my eyes or frontal lobe. Drat . . .

len_newstrum

20th May 2009, 10:39 AM

You're right--I should have said "one or more tires" rather than "the tires". But that's kinda picky for someone who has 50-year-old tires on their Beta...Read closer. The tires are only ten years old, but they have been indoors. Sunlight and ozone are tire killers. Fifty years referred to when nylon cords were first used. Now the tires on my 64 chevy van are at least 30 years old, but who cares. It never goes over 25 mph on back streets to get to the dump.:eek:

1,6 HF

20th May 2009, 01:27 PM

David,

With close to 60% of the weight on the front wheels, the front springs will be stronger than the rears, as their primary responsibility is to support the sprung weight, and there's more of that at the front. But you generally want compliance about the same front to rear. So with everything properly set up, a good manual shove on the front should respond about the same as one on the rear. If one ends moves far more freely than the other, then I'd say you've isolated the problem to either the springs, the dampers, or--less likely--both.

20th May 2009, 01:43 PM

If you lift the front off the ground do the struts extend fully or do they stick in place?

I'd consider jacking it up and putting a jack under each front wheel to lift it then lower it several times to see how each strut is moving.

BTW, I've never driven a coal cart. Can you provide a more common analogy? :rolleyes:

1,6 HF

20th May 2009, 01:54 PM

BTW, I've never driven a coal cart. Can you provide a more common analogy? :rolleyes:

ox cart

davidb

20th May 2009, 02:31 PM

Tired Springs? I'm making this a tired thread/topic. To D.J I say I
thought of the jacking method this morning. Two jacks, one on the
front "A" arm, another on the front side, jacking point beneath the
rocker panel @ the appropriate point factory location. To see if the
shock piston moves along w/the springs. I drove it instead around
the subdivision street w/o trying that. No improvement in ride
quality. I'll try the jacking tomorrow. When I reference coal cart
ride I dated a girl in college whose brother loaned her his Porsche
914. Good suspension, shocks, dunno? The suspension sucked. The
engine was tricked out, 4 cylinder. But that suspension, those few
rides I took, horrible. I equate that to a "coal cart" ride. Almost
new '74 914. Jaded me on Porches. Maybe 911s are better, dunno.
I want my LBZ to feel better, then the Scorp. once on the road
same/same. Thanks all! I ain't giving up [quite] yet.

Jim Keller

21st May 2009, 08:45 AM

Swapping of the springs front to back would be nearly impossible I would think, the rears are twice the height and a tenth the strength of the fronts, you don't even need a spring compressor to do the rears..........and I am pretty sure diameter is different too maybe??? would have to go to shed and check with spare parts to be sure of that though.

My guess, you have a bad strut or two, (either no resistance or bad internals making them too resistant, ask, I think it was Charlie, who recently, last summer if memory serves, went thru a destroyed upper mount due to a bad "brand new" over stiff strut from IAP, there is a thread on it Waaaay back), Betas ride like Caddies, not Cameros, even wth Konis, actually, they ride even better with Konis! not harsher.

Koni adjustments only affect the rebound, not the compression so unless he is on a washboarded road where he runs out of compression due to too stiff rebound adjustment and starts riding on the bump stops, that isn't his problem, I have a SUPER REAL BAD back and I ran my Konis 4 half turns to stiff front, 3 to rear, (Beta Konis have 5 half turns of adjustmnent), and they were perfect for street ride/handling, absolutely NO harshness at all

davidb

22nd May 2009, 08:11 AM

Can't find that thread Jim. Where did Charlie or whoever find new
upper rubber mounts? If I tear those struts back out it'd be nice to
have new rubber [top] up there. I have not, as yet, tried D.J.'s
suggestion of jacking the "A" arm up to see if the shock piston
will move, i.e. the shock hydraulics are working. Those front
struts were one of the 1ST things I bought 40+ months ago from
I.A.P.. I've only driven the car 100 miles since [somewhat] road-
worthy. If I call them back & tell 'em I've got defective struts
after all this time they'll laugh me off the planet [sigh]. Who else
sells front Coupe/Zagato struts? Thought I was sooooo close to
finishing the re-furb, driving this thing. Now suspension issues +
other issues, yikes. Thanks.