Scorpion #1572 Resurrection [Archive]

HF Stinger

2nd May 2009, 10:35 PM

Im not sure if this is the best place for a 'project' thread, but it doesn't seem the 'garage' section alerts other users to progress.

After years of searching you would have thought I'd end up with a real gem. Im not sure I'd claim it to be a gem, but here goes nuttin'.

I found the car in Napa, CA several months ago. The owner had it advertised on craigslist for a ridiculous amount of money. I thought I'd arrive and be faced with a car I would practically be able to drive home. I was wrong, to say the very least. The ad enticed me with the list of parts the car had on it.

The basics are: Dual DCNF's / manifold, 40-80/80-40 cams, full Ansa Quad-tip, Konis, Monte springs, spare 2L engine, set of new-in-box Borgo pistons, spare non EGR 1.8L head, fiberglass roof panel, and a NOS taillight panel. All sounding pretty good so far right? Everything was pretty well described with the exception of the roof panel, it's not really useable at this point.

The down side is there is a bit of damage to the drivers rear of the car. The exterior of the car is fairly straight and rust-free. The car does have a set of Flintstone floorboards, as well as a nicely ventilated battery tray. Strut towers and rockers were perfect.

Im not sure of the direction I will take since the car needs a 100% cosmetic restoration as well as the floorboards done. If it doesn't seem to be the right car to make THAT nice, it will be a dedicated track car and built appropriately. I'll be modest here, I paid $1500 for it. The way I see it - I paid for the parts, got the car for free...

davidb

3rd May 2009, 04:58 AM

By comparison I'd say you did well Sean. I paid $2K for
mine. Seller said it ran, didn't. Said rust -free, passenger
floor pan shot under carpet. I paid $1.5K for 42 DCNFs w/
manifold & $450 to have the carbs TOTALLY re-built. So
again you did well. Best of luck w/your project.

HF Stinger

8th May 2009, 07:07 PM

Hey guys, I need some opinions on floorboards. I do lust for a set from the MH but Im afraid that would kill my budget for other aspects of the project.

I have been looking around at some books on bodywork and restorations for ideas. It seems in the hot rod / muscle car / classic car world many guys just fab very simple floor pans. I did this with my last car (drivers rear section) and I was happy with the results, but I know there are people out there that would point their nose in the air at such a simple fix.

Im not in this to really please anyone else, but I do want to have a quality result. Im not fixing it to sell it, but if I sell it at some point I want it to appear like it was done right.

Does anyone have any pics / suggestions on how others have fixed these?

Im kinda leaning towards a sheet metal panel with some beads rolled to strengthen / stabilize the pans with maybe one of the new hi-tech bonding products out there along with blind rivets (this is probably where I'll lose some of ya), it seems more and more accepted within the community these days. If I decide against that I will revert to stitch welding the pieces although I don't have the resources for that yet. Also what gauge sheet metal should I opt for this time?

HF Stinger

25th May 2009, 09:23 PM

A little progress today. Im still in the tear down mode but I needed a project where I could get a small sense of accomplishment. I pulled out the wiper mechanism and put 12v to it and it was working albeit slow. I stripped it down to the bare components, de-greased, and then bead blasted the lot of it. Initially I was concerned about the spherical bushings but since they are plastic and I was using plastic media they didn't come out gritty at all. A good rinsing to get the dust off showed great results. I would like to zinc coat them for the gold-ish factory color but I may opt for the zinc look paint. I have to order either choice so I will show the end result later.

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Wiper_Mech_2.jpg
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Wiper_Mech_3.jpg

I got a few goodies from Harbor Freight friday and I was achin' to try one of them out. Might as well start with the pneumatic saw :o} The surface rust looks pretty gory in the pics, but there is actually quite enough metal to be saved / treated.

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Drivers_Floor_1.jpg
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Drivers_Floor_2.jpg

The drivers side was easy, it all needed to come out. There is ample 'ledge' around the perimeters. Even though in the pics it all still looks rusted to sh*t, its actually solid. I purchased a bead roller to stiffen up the pans, as well as a few sections of hat channel that will be spot welded to the underside of the pan.

I wouldn't mind a few opinions on the passenger side. The front section is not nearly as bad as the drivers side so Im considering two patches rather than the whole front pan. The pics show outlines where I can patch. Am I doing the right thing by using as much of the factory metal as I can? Or should I try and keep symmetry between the two sides? The rear pan needs to come all the way out pretty much like the drivers side.

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Pass_Floor_1.jpg
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Pass_Floor_2.jpg

Hopefully this week I'll be making a trip to get some sheet metal, in the meantime I'll start sanding/grinding down the surface rust. I will be putting products from the Eastwood Co. through their paces on this resto.

HF Stinger

25th May 2009, 09:49 PM

Will

1st June 2009, 05:35 AM

Good score!

Glassed-in hardware on front bumper leads me to think that's an RG bumper? - the three other players are TMH (of course), Al C., and Chris Obert. I think Jason Greenwood also scored molds from somebody, I don't know if he's got Rodger's or the 037 molds Jeff Roehms made for the "faux37" David Beale bought.

IMO it would be great if somebody could do a little legwork and make a list of who has what molds so people know whare to source panels. Also, what happened to the guy who hired pros to make a realistic 037 setup that was posted on here a while back? I saw some pics of a finished car at a show, but no official offewring w/price sheet? He said he had some preorder from people IIRC but I haven't talked to anyone who's actually got a kit. Has anybody on here got one?

HF Stinger

2nd June 2009, 09:24 PM

Will, was that the 037Syndicate gentleman? Thats what comes to mind anyway...

A weird turn of work-events and suddenly Im on the east coast again. I managed to pick up my Monte bumpers in-person last night - who'd have thought... Im fixin to either ship them home on greyhound or right on Southwest Air, I noticed they have freight service on the flights.

Darren

3rd June 2009, 01:17 AM

Will, was that the 037Syndicate gentleman? Thats what comes to mind anyway...

That was he - not sure that those kits are still in production - I know he had been trying to sell the demonstrators on ebay - not sure about the moulds. Yet to see one of them in the flesh and not heard of anyone who's got one on the road. One of the MCC members got the 'competition' car but not heard how he's getting on with it.

lanciatomcat

3rd June 2009, 02:29 AM

Darren

3rd June 2009, 05:49 AM

I didn't want to count my chickens before they hatched, but lets just say it's good to peruse ebay during the wee hours of the morning if you can't sleep. I was waiting until the seller contacted me and I sent payment before I began to gloat.

There was a gentleman selling a set of 'glass Monte bumpers on the east coast. Two auctions, both with a buy-it-now option. And buy them I did. They had only been active for a couple hours, there was 6 days and 20+ hours left on them.

Im not sure if they are Rodgers, or Mr Rawlings, but Im very fortunate to have a deal like this go my way finally. $150 each buy-it-now, and Im handling the shipping via u-ship.

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/_BS_NCVgCGk___KGrHgoOKkMEjlLmT_phBKE1jr_hOQ___3.JP G
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/_BS_NMGQBWk___KGrHgoOKjIEjlLmW_tGBKE1kY0_4____3.JP G

Sean,

A recent thread request from John O has nudged something that was niggling me with your bumper mate - whoever it was who kindly cut out the holes for the indicator/sidelights & front grilles has helpfully removed the part that actually bolts up to the bumper brackets - see here

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/908/medium/IMG_0060.jpg (http://lancisti.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=8529)

and here

http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/908/medium/IMG_00611.jpg

and from the look of it, you've got precious little material to attach the air tunnel. Don't want to rain on your parade at all mate, but you'd best be ready to hone your matting skills with this one. Still, at least you'll know it's been done properly!:)

Cheers

Darren

3rd June 2009, 05:53 AM

I believe that John Lamberts has stopped production although not sure of the state of play with regard to who has the moulds now.
I saw the finished product at Stoneleigh and it looked good although, to my mind, certain detailing could have been better. The asking price put me off for the kit.
Someone had a Monte requiring restore plus a kit for sale on ebay which I went to look at. OK but asking price was still too high.
I saw the competition version was for sale recently on ebay. Did it sell in the end?

Hi Tom,

You know as much as I do re production and the moulds - the website's been down for a while now - and I hear you re the price! I saw the competition car on eBay a little while back - now sure if it was the demonstrator or not - it might have been, nice blue interior? As you say, the finishing touches or lack of them let the thing down imho. That and wheels that made it look like a roller skate:twisted:

Will

3rd June 2009, 09:16 PM

Sean,

A recent thread request from John O has nudged something that was niggling me with your bumper mate - whoever it was who kindly cut out the holes for the indicator/sidelights & front grilles has helpfully removed the part that actually bolts up to the bumper brackets - see here

and from the look of it, you've got precious little material to attach the air tunnel. Don't want to rain on your parade at all mate, but you'd best be ready to hone your matting skills with this one. Still, at least you'll know it's been done properly!:)

Cheers

Not a problem Darren, our cars don't have the bumper brackets and the car's nose is retained upwards by the sheet metal curb at the lower edge of the radiator opening, held down by the front wings and noseband, and retained rearwards by the corner bolts fairly well with no additional fastening required once the gas struts are removed- the Scorpion is a little different from the Monte in this respect as you can confirm by examining your own examples.

Yeah, John Lambert is the guy I was referring to.

John O

3rd June 2009, 10:06 PM

our cars don't have the bumper brackets...

They do if you buy and install them. It's a readily available piece from TMH; I have them front and rear and they fit the Scorpion just as they do on the Monte. Only thing not available is the "top hat" bracket for the rear, but it hasn't been brain surgery to fab a pair up. You're right that there are a number of attachment provisions other than the brackets, but it makes sense to me just from a someone-putting-their-foot-up-on-the-bumper perspective to give it all the strength/support available.

John O.

Will

4th June 2009, 07:02 AM

Yeah, obviously the car would have them if you bought them or fabbed them and installed them, but my point is if your bumper does not have a provision for them, it is not necessary to go through the trouble of reworking the bumper to provide for them in order to affix the bumper on the car.

Unless you are going to use the bumper as a "functional" bumper, i.e. running into other cars....which some people have done.:p

John is actually not alone here, I managed to slip my front bumper under the back bumper of a volvo and damage one headlight bucket and a noseband corner about 3 weeks after getting my car. I had a brake problem I could not diagnose, turns out a PO-installed adapter that had been overtightened into the RR brake caliper had stripped the caliper and leaked so stopping the car was relying only on the lovely boosted front circuit with its nice vacuum surge problem, causing the front wheels to lock up and the car to continue on its merry way. Luckily my car was undamaged otherwise except for a quarter-sized ding in a radiator support corner, things could have been a lot worse.

If there is any doubt about the brakes on your car being completely sorted, by all means keep the metal bumpers until this is done, for whatever additional protection they offer. they are probably too loew to do any good, but some protection is better than none IMO.

John O

4th June 2009, 08:07 AM

Unless you are going to use the bumper as a "functional" bumper... by all means keep the metal bumpers ...for whatever additional protection they offer ...they are probably too low to do any good...

"Fictional" ...as in, looks good on paper ...in a story where bumpers actually do something because they're high enough to meet the SUV in front of you ...not like the reality where the bumper gets out of the accident (http://picasaweb.google.com/roadbox128/ScorpionAccident) completely unscratched and everything above it is trashed.

You might as well have the bumpers you want because in this era of very high bumper heights neither metal nor plastic bumpers will practically prevent any damamge.

John O.

Will

4th June 2009, 01:26 PM

"Fictional" ...as in, looks good on paper ...in a story where bumpers actually do something because they're high enough to meet the SUV in front of you ...not like the reality where the bumper gets out of the accident (http://picasaweb.google.com/roadbox128/ScorpionAccident) completely unscratched and everything above it is trashed.

You might as well have the bumpers you want because in this era of very high bumper heights neither metal nor plastic bumpers will practically prevent any damamge.

John O.

Yeah- might want to add some of those bumperette things they have on 70's era cop cars and Dodge Aspens/Plymouth Volares! To stop you from going under the other car! :cheers:

HF Stinger

4th June 2009, 03:40 PM

Thanks for the insight on the mountings guys. I have a bit of time before they get mounted so I will be able to 'engineer' some proper mounts as needed. From what I can tell so far, that whole area in question never looked like it was even moulded to be fitted to the true Monte brackets. A little metal bending may be in order.

As far as the bumpers, they are on their way back to Vegas via greyhound freight. Both bumpers were packed as one unit with the rear padded and clam-shelled over the front. I used almost a full box (125 sq/ft) of bubble wrap and one shiny new roll of packing tape to prep them for shipment. Total weight for both bumpers and all packing materials was 22 lb.

Greyhound freight was fairly painless, and it sure was cheap. $53 shipped from Newark NJ to Vegas and thats with the additional insurance. I will beat them home by a few hours Saturday afternoon.

Ed P

5th June 2009, 08:17 PM

a little history...

I bought my first Scorpion in 1979. I soon met another southern California Scorpion owner, Gil Robinson, who happened to be a Fiat North America employee. Thru his connections, Gil arranged to have sent over here a complete set of MonteCarlo parts microfiche and a MonteCarlo printed parts manual.

Bingo.. we could now see what were the real differences between the models. Both of us loved the way the MonteCarlo looked and (in I believe it was 1981 or 1982) managed to "slip in" to one of the FIAT NA stock part orders the part numbers for the Monte front & rear bumpers. We didn't even know if this would work since we did not know if FIAT had a "filter" on the part numbers to keep Euro-spec parts out of the US.

Six weeks go by and the next stock order arrives and there are our bumpers! Surprisingly they were ridicously inexpensive... something like $90 each at the time. Now we had a plan... Gil's brother-in-law was a body parts fabricator for Dan Gurney's race shop in Santa Ana, CA and he was going to use the original bumpers to make molds so he could then make fiberglass reproductions. The "originals' would bascially be desroyed by this process but now we have molds to make as many as we want.

The mounting was different between a Scorpion (with bumper shock mounts) and a MonteCarlo so we came up with some bent steel brackets for proper mounting and of course had to cut away clearence for the Scorpion pop-up headlamps.

So, in 1982 we were able to offer a complete, ready to bolt on, MonteCarlo front or rear bumper kit. I sold many of these thru Caribou and kept Chris (Gil's brother in law) very busy. For a few years I was tossing a couple of grand his way every other month or so.

Mark Rawlings (mentioned in this thread) bought his bumpers from me as did dozens and dozens of other Scorpion owners. It is my understanding that Mark used my bumpers as the "originals" to be able to reproduce his.

Once we found out that FIAT was not "filtering" part number, we started bringing in MonteCarlo headlamps and other goodies. Gil in fact ordered a set of Euro-spec, hydraucilly self-leveling halogen headlamps for the HPE he owned!

In the attached photos, Gil's Scorpion is the orange one, mine is silver.

By the way, there's another ongoing thread on removing or not removing the Scorpion booster. I addressed that in the early 1980's when Caribou offered a hard brake line kit with instructions on how to bypass the booster. That along with utilizing the larger surface area of the brake rotors and pads from the front wheel drive Beta cars kept many Scorpion owners very happy.

Ed

HF Stinger

5th June 2009, 08:35 PM

Very cool bit of history Ed. Nice to hear stories about the simpler times and when the enthusiasm was so high in the US for Lancia.

Will

8th June 2009, 09:32 AM

Yeah, I wasn't aware you sold them Ed- do you still have the molds?

That picture is eerily similar to this one of mine IMO:
http://lancisti.net/photopost/data/547/thumbs/wb3.jpg (http://lancisti.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=1004)

I guess we both thought that angle was a good one!

Ed P

8th June 2009, 08:22 PM

Hi Will,

Gil's brother-in-law (Chris) kept the molds out at his place in Riverside, CA. When the demand for the bumpers simply tapered off I never thought about contacting Chris to get them 'cause I figured another order would roll in sometime.

Might be an interesting "project" to try and locate him to see if the molds still exist.

Ed

HF Stinger

12th June 2009, 11:31 PM

Im back on the road again, however that didn't stop the goodies from arriving. Thanks to Bob Sorrentino a lil' package will be waiting in the garage for me when I get home next weekend.

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Delta_wheel.jpg

They'll get a full refurb before getting mounted - wow this list is getting long...

And if that weren't enough, the 77 rolling chassis offered up by our own John Allen arrived safely and sound this afternoon as well. Im very lucky to have a generous buddy with a 1/2 acre lot in an unincorporated area where I can store the car in the mean time.

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/77_roller.jpg

Thanks again John!!

lancia_x120

13th June 2009, 11:21 AM

Hi Ed -

Sorry, but your recollection isn't entirely accurate (blame it on age)! I borrowed a set of bumpers from Gennaro and made molds. I couldn't afford yours!

Ed P

13th June 2009, 12:14 PM

lancia_x120

13th June 2009, 02:27 PM

Hi Mark,

Ah... Gennaro... there's a name I haven't thought about in years. Are you still in touch with him?

Thanks for the correction, I sold so many sets of bumpers it's impossible to remember everyone.

For those of you who don't know, Mark put together one of the most gorgeous Scorpions ever.

Ed

Gennaro and I are good friends. I can credit you Ed, for that. We met at one of your Scorpion get together's over 20 years ago. I talk to him frequently and see him about once a year. He moved back to the mother country a few years ago, but is now back in San Diego for the forseeable future. He sold his Scorpions before moving; still has a Spider and a few X1/9s.

Ed P

13th June 2009, 02:39 PM

Mark,

Right now I am looking at a VHS video cassette sitting on the shelf that was taken at the meet I held in 1986. I probably haven't watched it since 1988! I'll have to pop it in and see what's on it.

Transferring it into an AVI file (or such) would be great. then I could post it up on my web site for downloading.

Would you email me Gennaro's phone number or email address?

Ed

walbum

13th June 2009, 03:34 PM

Sorry for furthering the hi-jacked thread, I believe that Generro was a previous owner of my Scorpion (1158). I would be interested in his recollections of the car (mods, etc.).

HF Stinger

21st July 2009, 11:42 AM

Been home a few weeks with limited productivity - catching up on 'home' things as well as triple digit garage temps...

I wanted to throw a question or two out there.

Who would be my best one-stop-shop for ordering all required engine rebuild items? Im familiar with Vick and International but would there be any other options that would likely have-it-all? I got SO beat up on shipping charges last year during my audi project I would like to consolidate as much shipping as possible this time around.

Also, my pistons are a ,4mm overbore. Does anyone have a standard bore mid-compresstion kit lying around? I might have a buyer for my oversized kit...

For now Im planning on keeping the dual carb setup and staying NA so I dont mind the higher compression.

My last car had a lightened flywheel and I really liked it, are the details of this covered in the GC book? Can any machine shop be trusted with the procedure?

len_newstrum

21st July 2009, 01:27 PM

My last car had a lightened flywheel and I really liked it, are the details of this covered in the GC book? Can any machine shop be trusted with the procedure?I've always been puzzled by the lightened flywheel thing. I can see how less rotational inertia would let you engine rev up a little faster when the clutch is disengaged, but I would think that in the real world of accelerating the drive line, wheels, and the whole car that it would be so small as to be unnoticeable. (I would think that it might help improve clutch life, too, by reducing the amount of energy needed to match engine rpm and xmsn input shaft speed when shifting.) Can you really notice a difference in performance? I would think that there might be a significant difference in the ability to idle without being 'lumpy'.

It also just occurred to me that it might make double-clutch downshifts a little faster, too. Again, noticeable?

Aside. I once had a car that was cooled (air-cooled) by a squirrel-cage fan. The blower was connected to the engine by spring-loaded friction pads so that when you accelerated hard the fan just slipped, then caught up to the engine speed slowly. Obviously the designers thought it helped, and I must say that it did respond, with no load, very very rapidly; but that might have been simply that it was an especially low friction engine (roller crank and roller rod big-end bearings and only two {big} cylinders).

HF Stinger

21st July 2009, 07:02 PM

Its personal preference, but I love how a lightened flywheel reacts. I mentioned my last scorpion had a lightened one, but failed to mention my UrQuattro has a 9 pound Fidanza Aluminum flywheel currently installed with a Spec II+ clutch. It's very drivable and I think the lighter inertial mass compliments what would normally be some quirkiness of a higher performance clutch.

Off-the-line and acceleration are notably improved. I don't feel there is any true gain in horsepower, however the ability to accelerate quicker would show higher numbers sooner on a dyno with the same overall peak HP.

The throttle response is amazing as you suggested while shifting, etc.

HF Stinger

29th November 2009, 12:51 PM

Well, it's been a while. I haven't been completely dormant, but at times not far from it.

I'm in the take-apart phase for the most part, but been repairing / replacing along the way.

I bead blasted the wiper mechanism, next I will zinc plate it again with the kit from Eastwood, Co.

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Wiper_Mech_3.jpg

The passenger floor has a few trouble spots, but nowhere as bad as the drivers side.

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Pass_Floor_1.jpg
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Pass_floor_2_fix.jpg

Here is the first patch of the passenger side.

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Pass_floor_1_fix.jpg

Next I moved on to the battery tray.

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/batt_tray_5.jpg

Im more proud of my sheet metal skills than my welding, but that should improve - I hope.

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/batt_tray_1.jpg
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/batt_tray_2.jpg
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/batt_tray_3.jpg
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/batt_tray_4.jpg

Next up will be the rebuilding of the Koni's.
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/konis_out.jpg

More progress as time allows.

On a side note, the legend himself: Eddy Tuason just took up residence in Las Vegas, and he is barely 10 minutes from me. This will be some good motivation for my project.

HF Stinger

22nd December 2009, 09:45 PM

I'm taking essentially the last 3 weeks of the year off so i have plenty of garage time before things ramp back up after the first.

I placed an order for all my suspension goodies from TMH. While those are all still in transit I am continuing on the rust repairs. With the front passenger side taken care of I will be able to move to the interior and continue working on the floors.

I made the patch panel for the headlight area today. It wasn't quite as impressive as the battery tray itself however it was a little more difficult. It's not welded in yet, I have a little bit of weld prep to do. I haven't decided on which headlights Im using yet so Im not sure what I will have to do to the replacement panel to accommodate the lights. I may want to roll a couple more beads once I know which lights Im fitting.

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Headlight_Panel_9.jpg

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Headlight_Panel_7.jpg

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Headlight_Panel_5.jpg

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Headlight_Panel_4.jpg

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Headlight_Panel_1.jpg

Once the welds are done I can commence to a seam-sealing and then some rust inhibitor on the bare metal.

next up: templates for the floorboard sections...

sprintcarfan

23rd December 2009, 03:48 PM

I'm taking essentially the last 3 weeks of the year off so i have plenty of garage time before things ramp back up after the first.

I placed an order for all my suspension goodies from TMH. While those are all still in transit I am continuing on the rust repairs. With the front passenger side taken care of I will be able to move to the interior and continue working on the floors.

I made the patch panel for the headlight area today. It wasn't quite as impressive as the battery tray itself however it was a little more difficult. It's not welded in yet, I have a little bit of weld prep to do. I haven't decided on which headlights Im using yet so Im not sure what I will have to do to the replacement panel to accommodate the lights. I may want to roll a couple more beads once I know which lights Im fitting.

Once the welds are done I can commence to a seam-sealing and then some rust inhibitor on the bare metal.

next up: templates for the floorboard sections...

I like your metalwork... FYI some if not all those panels around the trouble-prone battery box are available at TMH, they had reasonable prices last time I looked.

Interested to see how the plating project turns out. I've looked at the Eastwood and Caswell kits, from what I've read if you can find a local plater you're better off going that route because the quality is better, and the plating lasts longer. I haven't found a local plater yet, however, but I haven't looked much.

HF Stinger

23rd December 2009, 04:45 PM

Im glad someone is watching ;o]

One of things about this project that I had been looking forward to was actually learning alot of this stuff along the way. I was on the fence about ordering panels from TMH. The pricing wasn't so much the concern as my own abilities to weld them in. I would have felt pretty bad ruining something from TMH whereas if I botched some of my own work I wouldn't feel so bad about it.

Also, I never seem to buy many tools until Im in project mode so when I take on a task like this I get all sorts of new goodies to play with. I just today picked up a grown-man's air compressor (220v 10.5 CFM @ 90psi) after 7-8 years of using one that barely wheezed along. Im excited to see how the accessories like the media blast cabinet and various hand tools run when you actually feed them the proper amount of air.

I will be messin' with the plating solution here in the next couple days. I have a couple options here in Vegas for powder coating, but I haven't found a plating guy. At least the Eastwood kit will let me go at my own pace as opposed to having to drop off a complete batch of stuff all at once - at least Im hoping.

1,6 HF

23rd December 2009, 10:54 PM

I like your metalwork... FYI some if not all those panels around the trouble-prone battery box are available at TMH, they had reasonable prices last time I looked...

Yeah, but that'd take all the sport out of it. As it is, it's a great exercise, and the results are a lot more satisfying.

Scott H

24th December 2009, 08:23 AM

Sean,

This comment is a little late for the panels you have already welded.

When you are welding two panels where they overlap each other it is a good idea to paint the portions of the panels that are overlapping beforehand. Use a weld through primer which will have a high concentration of zinc. At the weld point this paint will still burn but the areas just adjacent to the weld will be treated with zinc and there will be better protection against oxidation. With where you live I doubt that there is much of an issue but for a few bucks I think it is worth the effort. Also keep in mind that welding zinc is some nasty shit and you really don't want to breathe any of the welding fumes. Use a respirator (best) or a fan to blow the stuff away from you.

One last bit of advice if you do go this route, be sure to clean the spray tip of the paint can every time you use it. I take the tip off and shoot it with brake cleaner. It is also a good idea to store the can on its side. There is a large % of solids in this paint and it is easier to mix it up (shaking can) if you store the can laying on its side.

Nice work!
Scott

HF Stinger

27th December 2009, 07:59 PM

Well noted suggestion Scott. I'll look into some of those coatings, Im not a fan of the welding byproducts though. I had been coating the areas with Eastwood Co's rust inhibitor and then grinding the spot weld areas clean prior to making the welds. A generous helping of seam sealer should help - I hope...

Here is a pic of my christmas present to myself:

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/AirComp2.jpg

60gal 220v 10.5 CFM @ 90psi, enough to feed those nibblers, saws, and grinders. What a difference this thing makes, I wish I got it months ago.

This was todays project, the passenger side forward patch. I wouldn't mind hearing some opinions on this patch, it will not have the recessed area like original but it will be consistent with the drivers side.

http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Pass_floor_3_fix.jpg

The beads are in the proper position as stock, but the floor is flat. Do you guys view this as an acceptable replacement? Considering I have seen floorboards made from melamine this can't end up too bad.

sprintcarfan

30th December 2009, 07:22 PM

The beads are in the proper position as stock, but the floor is flat. Do you guys view this as an acceptable replacement? Considering I have seen floorboards made from melamine this can't end up too bad.

I'm not sure if that recess that was in the original floor was put there primarily for extra room for your feet, or if it was just to add stiffness to the floors.... I'm thinking it was mostly there for room and you're not losing much structurally with a flat floor. That said, it looks like you have a bead roller, if you do it might be a good idea to run a bead around the perimeter of the patch, sort of mimicking that recess.

HF Stinger

31st December 2009, 01:09 AM

Thanks John, I see what you mean. I have to experiment with the dies I have available for the bead roller. I don't think I have one that will give me much depth, but it's possible I can mimic the "pan" area.

I didn't take any pics of todays progress but I disassembled the strut assemblies and plugged that new air compressor into my media blast cabinet and went to town. Now that they are apart I see the koni's have the spanner nut on top for rebuilding, however these all have a nice smooth stroke and the pistons are in perfect shape. I had prepared for the worst but I should be able to get plenty of miles out of these.

HF Stinger

24th January 2010, 10:45 PM

Well nuttin to visually report for now, but with the help of Eddy T who is practically a neighbor now I got back to work on the gold car.

Project one was getting the air dam out the bottom of the car and removing the fuel tank. We got the tank flushed - which was actually pretty clean for what we expected to find. This car sat for a decade Im sure. Eddy is emptying the float and re-sealing it this week as I cosmetically renovate the tank.

I didn't even plan to run the engine that was in this car, I wanted to just start with a fresh 2L buildup with a combination of parts I have from the existing engine. Eddy talked me into at least seeing the status of the current engine and if so, get the car moving and saving that extra effort for everything else the car needs. I agree now, and we'll be going this route.

That in mind, project two was tearing down for a timing belt change. We got as far in as changing the cam seals and called it a day. This will give me some time to do a bit of detail work and cleaning in there. I have to grab an alternator belt and a few trinkets and hoo-ha's before the assembly begins. I had been soaking the combustion chambers with PB Blaster the last week or two, hopefully if the rings were stuck - they'll come back. If not, I proceed with my 2L build, no harm done. But if it proves to be a runner, I will have saved some work upfront. My only issue is that I wont have been able to detail the engine bay as complete as I had wanted to, considering Im doing a color change...

I have a package from TMH waiting at the Post Office which I'll grab at lunchtime tomorrow, should be chock full of poly bushings and other tidbits.

HF Stinger

10th February 2010, 03:06 PM

I should have a photo update here soon, its been too cold and rainy here in Vegas to accomplish too much. Waiting for it to warm up a bit so I can do some painting in the sunshine.

I have a couple of requests for parts in the meantime.

I need one of the beefy large 'washers' that secure the track rod to the mounting point. I have one of these that is quite distressed with some cracks in it and is mis-shapen. I am very near putting the front suspension back in the car and would like to be able to do it once with good parts.

I am also searching for a good source for CV Boots for both axles. Are these the same piece for x1/9's?

Is there a known source for replacement boots for tir rod ends / ball joints etc? All my components feel great but they have some cracks on the boots and I hate to put the car back into service that way.

As always, thanks in advance

Whitespy

10th February 2010, 04:16 PM

Hey quit whining about the cold....... at least you have rain and longer days.:p

The X1/9 cv joints and boots are the same and MidWestBayless carries them.
You want the boots from the 5sp X1/9 not the 4sp. Or in other words you need the boots from the 1500cc X1/9 (79 and up) You can also check the local parts suppliers too because CV boots are pretty much universal and may have them listed and in stock.(for the X1/9) I know here locally I can still get CV boots, ignition, FI parts ect.

Hope this helps.

HF Stinger

14th February 2010, 11:25 PM

Thanks for the info Warren, I did just go down to my local place and have them ordered. I am all for supporting the Lancia community, but I need to keep the businesses down the block open in this economy too.

We did have a couple 60�-70� days here in Vegas so I got a tone of painting done, you have to love the desert sun for baking on a nice finish.

I need a good suggestion for a close color match to original Konis. I was recommended to try Chevy orange but it looked closer to safety orange than Koni... VW/Audi Mars Red or Audi Laser Red is a great match but I can't get in a large rattle can, only the small touch up quantities, and that's cost prohibitive...

Has anyone found some good alternatives for ball joint boots or tie rod end boots? I will be scoping out some generic ones when I get back home. The x1/9 Rear control arms are sold as 'remanufactured' so there has to be an option for boots out there.

sprintcarfan

15th February 2010, 06:09 AM

Has anyone found some good alternatives for ball joint boots or tie rod end boots? I will be scoping out some generic ones when I get back home. The x1/9 Rear control arms are sold as 'remanufactured' so there has to be an option for boots out there.

Fiat 124 lower ball joint boots may fit the rear ball joints. The ball is apparently the same part, so the boot may be the same as well... http://xwebforums.org/showthread.php?t=1096&highlight=ball+joint

HF Stinger

25th March 2010, 11:40 PM

Since my last update I have ordered a lower ball joint for a 124 Spider (still on the way) to see if the boots interchange with the rear ball joint on the Scorpion. If so it will save me alot of work by allowing me to replace the boots rather than separating the rear control arms to change the whole joint.

In the meantime I have received the boots for the Aurelia off ebay Netherland. I hoped they would work on the rear of the Scorpion, they are too small, however I think they will be a good option for the upper tie rod (steering) boots. I will attack that project this weekend.

After bending everyones ear with coil over questions in the last couple weeks, I committed to the project tonight. I don't feel I did anything revolutionary here but I took bits and pieces of everyone's experience and put it together in a way that will work for me - for now. There is always room for improvement but I think Im on the right track here.

Media Blasted Koni
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Strut_before.jpg

A few minutes later with the help of my trusty cut-off wheel
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Lower_Perch_Removed.jpg

Im purposely leaving the old weld and portion of the flange from the lower perch on the strut body to stabilize the threaded tube. I will fine tune the clearance once the proper tube shows up (hopefully by the weekend).
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Lower_Perch_Removed_2.jpg

I ordered 4 of these aluminum split collars off a fellow on ebay that machines them himself (fantastic job). For the Konis I ordered the 1.75 ID and they fit perfectly. Your mileage may vary if using an original strut housing with an insert.
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Split_Collar_1.jpg

Here is a partial mockup, the threaded tubes are actually for my Audi as are the 8" springs.
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Mockup_1.jpg

My Audi pal was over last night and I described how I was going to attack this and he was a little envious since the UrQuattro is going to be much more labor intense. I am liking the idea of the split collar as the lower support (thanks to Mark for this idea).

As far as springs I decided on a little softer rates than some of you are running, but Im setting these up to run a 10" spring in the front and a 10" or a 12" in the rear (thanks to Pete Whitstones calc's and BTDT's). I think the longer springs with a lower rate will give a more supple ride without sacrificing the travel. Im starting with 185LB FR / 225 RR, of course it will be easy enough to change these once the car hits the road.

Darren

26th March 2010, 01:55 AM

Good work Sean, one question though - the split collar - is that man enough for supporting the weight of the car - I would have thought that a welded joint would be better? I don't know myself, but I'd be interested to hear your thinking.

Cheers

HF Stinger

26th March 2010, 11:05 AM

lancia_x120

27th March 2010, 09:24 AM

Darren

27th March 2010, 04:23 PM

Thanks Sean - good idea to knurl if you're sticking with those platforms, but I would strip them down and weld before rebuilding, or look for another set of standard struts that can accept inserts.

It's on my list of things to do, but a long way down at the moment! Megasquirt to finish first!!

Cheers

kens

30th March 2010, 07:01 PM

Nice work there Sean. Consider finishing the coil over build with a fresh set of official Koni stickers. http://www.koni-na.com/apparel.cfm?level=1&category=D

HF Stinger

30th March 2010, 11:53 PM

Thanks Ken!! I was actually poking around trying to find those a few weeks ago but never did - I will be ordering an ample supply ;o]

I was bummed that I didn't have some goodies waiting for me when I got home today, however Brown dropped off two boxes just before dinner while I was working on extracting my tired rear control arm bushings.

In the process of breaking down the rear suspension I found that I had a wheel bearing that needs replacing - better now than later...

Im still fiddling around with trying to find a compatible grease boot for the rear ball joints. I received the 124 ball joint and the boots looks very close, once I finish cleaning up the control arms I will see if the 124 boot is a good option or if Im going to try some of the universal fit boots from Energy Suspension. They have some with similar dimensions but nothing exact. Something has to be better than $275 - $400 for a complete ball joint assembly... especially when my joints are good, but have trashed boots.

The aforementioned boxes I received today were from A1 Racing and PitstopUSA. I have all the necessary bits in hand to complete the coil overs. There are a few little gadgets I will need to make for the final fitment, but this is very close to being wrapped up.

Next photo update will have everything laid out for the coil overs including my modded upper perches.

Darren

31st March 2010, 11:02 AM

I like coming home to boxes of goodies! ;o) Look forward to seeing the pics of the strut tops Sean - keep up the good work!

Cheers

John Allen

31st March 2010, 01:34 PM

Sean

One of the people over at the X1/9 XWeb forum made a 'production' run of rear a-arm boots (modified Energy boots, IIRC). Maybe there are some left?

I have a set of the largest boots Energy offered in a drawer for when I have to do some in the future..... BTW, the boots that are on the rear toe link should be close to the same size, maybe you have a spare one of those to steal a boot from?

Scott H

31st March 2010, 04:31 PM

Darren, I can't weld these since they are the actual strut tubes rather than a strut housing with an insert (unless Im missing something obvious here)? Can anyone identify these Koni's? They are converted OEM Wayassauto struts, you can still see some of the original impression where is wasn't machined off by Koni.

Im open for suggestions on these Konis, I don't know the history of them as well as some of you guys.

Once all the bits are in their proper place I had planned to knurl the exterior of the strut tube to further secure the split collar.

Sean,

Are the tops of the tubes not removeable? They look like it to me then you can remove the (Koni?) inserts. It may take a pretty large pipe whench on it to get it to turn. They look pretty darn close to the Koni's I have from what I recall.

Scott

HF Stinger

31st March 2010, 11:49 PM

Thanks for takin a good look at them Scott. The tops are threaded, but I just wasnt familiar enough with what Koni used to do to these struts when they modified them. Based on them machining off the WayAssauto imprint and replacing it with their own Koni Stampings I assumed that this was a 'wet' strut as opposed to an insert. I guess there is no harm in opening one up to see. I'll see if I can find or make a spanner to open them, I hate buggering them up with a pipe wrench (guilty of that before).

As far as the 124 ball joint boot, the small hole is fine, but the base of the boot is too small. I now have a spare ball joint for my 124 I don't own lol luckily I got it on closeout for under $10. R&D budget right?

I also ordered a couple similarly sized universal boots from Energy Suspension. Im sure there will be some trimming involved but these things are cheap enough... My biggest problem is the wait each time I have to get something shipped...

HF Stinger

3rd April 2010, 11:23 PM

I received the boots from Energy Suspension, it looks like I have a winner with one of them for the rear ball joint. Once I get the rear arms cleaned up I will post pics of the fit and the part numbers. They may not need trimming, but that's still an option just in case.

I finished modifying the upper perches to accept the 2 1/2" springs. I cut down the tube to 1 1/2" and removed the original upper spring perch leaving an appropriate amount of meat to accept the new springs.

Original Top Perches:
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Top_Perch_1.jpg

Modified Top Perches:
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Top_Perch_4.jpg

I did the final mockup of both the front and rear units. So far I like the fitment with the 10" springs in relation to the unloaded free length. The placement of the threaded collar allows for full travel of the piston without any coil-bind. Depending how it all settles in on the car I still have room to add take-up springs.
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Mockup_2.jpg

Maybe while the Easter Bunny is out laying eggs tomorrow I will break them all down and get them painted.

Next up will be cleaning the CV's and replacing the boots. After that it will probably time to start welding again...

Darren

4th April 2010, 06:17 AM

Looking good Sean - very good work, and thanks for the pics of the top mounts. Couple of questions

1. Do the springs come with any form of what I can only term a seating ring, similar to the original plastic one or are the springs level at each end?

2. Is the threaded section attached to the strut tube, or is it simply held in place by gravity on the one hand and the bolted on collar at the other? I know the collar is bolted on, I was just interested in the threaded section.

Cheers!

HF Stinger

4th April 2010, 11:00 AM

Thanks Darren, all of the aftermarket coil over springs have the last coil tapered so the springs sit flat on the perches - different from the original spring seats.

One whizz-bang idea I had which I was surprised I had never seen done before was to isolate the springs to the upper and lower perches with rings cut from Teflon sheet. I haven't received the Teflon although it has been ordered. This should calm any of the harmonics between spring the rest of the components. I'll post those up once I get the rings cut. I had to order about 3 sq/ft of this sheet so I should have enough to make rings for a couple cars worth.

The threaded collar is stabilized on the strut body with some ABS plastic 'collars' that I cut. These struts were kinda tricky because the upper portion where the 'cap' threads on is larger slightly larger diameter than the rest of the strut tube. This means you couldn't just slide a spacer down the strut, whatever I used had to be split to expand over the threaded top and then slide down to the base. There will be a slight gap at the top of the threaded tube and I will just be filling that in with some black RTV to keep out any road debris.

Darren

4th April 2010, 01:16 PM

Thanks again for the info Sean - will be locating a set of series 1 struts and using yours and DJ's write-ups on the subject to give myself a new sets of struts once I have the car back on the road.

Thanks for sharing and cheers!

HF Stinger

6th April 2010, 12:19 AM

I shifted gears in the garage today. I got to cleaning up the rear control arms and before you know it, they were clean enough to do some welding. Welding? Im new to welding and these control arms are just begging to be seam welded. I know some may think Im an idiot for doing it, but if the new ball joint boots don't work out for the better I will be getting replacement / rebuilt units anyway...

So far youtube is my favorite welding instructor. Im using flux core until I get my bottle.
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Rear_Cntrl_Arm_1.jpg
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Rear_Cntrl_Arm_2.jpg

Once I had the control arms done I couldn't put the welder away so I went to work on my passenger floor. I made the patch panel a couple months ago but hadn't gotten back to that project until today.

Out came this:
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Pass_Floor_3.jpg

In went this:
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Pass_floor_4_fix.jpg

Maybe some of them are a little gnarly but I think anyone would have a hard time welding this piece in due to the thin-ness of the original metal. A little seam sealer,rust inhibitor, and under coating and it should look fairly decent.

Im comfortable with the process and the piece so my next task will be to fabricate the drivers side bits. Before you know it Fred Flintstone won't be able to drive this thing anymore.

bxcvf

13th April 2010, 09:43 AM

HF Stinger, thanks for the welcome. I just saw your work on the passenger floor and you are right, it is almost the same. You have done nice work. I look forward to reading more about your progress.

HF Stinger

19th April 2010, 10:43 AM

bx, all of my templates for the sheetmetal are in sturdy cardboard so I can remake any of these pieces as needed.

I have been on travel again but as soon as I landed I got a call from Eddy. We have a total of 5 Scorpions here in Vegas now and he is very motivated to get them all back on the road.

Eddy came over Sunday and we put in a full day's work on a bunch of little projects. I pulled out the column and pedal cluster in preparation for changing the clutch / brake master cylinders. Let me tell you how pleasant this was with no drivers side floor boards in the car lol Eddy went to work on some engine compartment wiring and fuel line replacement as well as relocating the fuel pump and other bits.

We were SO close to getting the car fired up but it just didn't happen. All systems were ready to go but in the end a bad ignition controller defeated us. Eddy even had 2 spares with him and every last one of them checked out bad. Time to just wash up and call it a day.

Since last photo update I welded in the headlight panel. All the approriate coatings have been applied to the bare metal and the seams have been sealed. The last thing to do will be to undercoat the car but I'll do that once the drivers side is complete. The lighting was a bit funky in the garage so I didn't get good pics but I'll update those soon too.

I'll be adding the replacement of one rear wheel bearing to my list of tasks as well. Better to find it now than later I guess.

HF Stinger

27th April 2010, 03:29 PM

Another week passed and I was having a very lazy Sunday, in the back yard relaxing in teh sun actually... The dogs perked up so I sent inside to see what got their attention and I hear a tapping on the garage door. Hit the button and in pops Eddy lol He was ready to make this car run regardless of what I had in mind. We both tinkered on some minor details, ignition module, priming the fuel pump, setting the static timing, and priming the carbs. I filled the system with water and noticed a drip form the water pump area, I was bummed but many people have told me that they can seal theselves back up after they have been wet for a while.

Eddy gave me the signal, key on to run the fuel pump. Noisey at first but quieted down once it got to pressure. Next was an attempt to start, couple cranks and it sputtered to life. We ran it for a short time, it was a little too rough to idle. A scratch of our heads and a quick look around showed two of the plug wires were swapped... We had a little laugh, fixed them and then it started up and settled to a decent idle while Eddy put a quick adjustment to the carbs as a baseline. The oil soaked header burned off and the car purred nicely, still dripping from the water pump though...

Anyway, it's a runner so the engine teardown is put off for later. Hopefully much later.

I shot some video, not sure if Im gonna post up or not. It's not as inspiring as some first-run's.

I got the Koni's painted, final assembly will be this week.

Next project will be the rear wheel bearing and now the water pump.

HF Stinger

28th April 2010, 10:57 PM

This may be redundant for some, but here is the final assembly process for my koni / coil-over setup.

Front strut assembly was easy. With the 10" spring I was able to put the split collar right down to the base of the spindle mounting boss.
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Coilover1.jpg

I used schedule 40 PVC cut to proper length and split to support the threaded collar.
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Coilover2.jpg

Next I gave a light bead of Permatex Adhesive-Sealant to dampen / secure the PVC spacer.
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Coilover3.jpg

On goes the threaded collar, and then backfilled with another bead of Permatex to stabilize the tube and seal out the road grime.
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Coilover4.jpg

Add spring, upper perch, and top nut.
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Coilover5.jpg

For the the rear the process was the same, but with many suggestions and concerns about the aluminum split collars not holding the weight, I put 4 small weld beads to make sure the collars aren't going anywhere.
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Coilover6.jpg

Lather, rinse, and repeat. Done.
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/Coilover7.jpg

Darren

29th April 2010, 04:02 AM

Wow Sean, they look great! Good work. Having driven a mate's car at the weekend with coilovers fitted (LEDA) and the ride was fantastic, so this job has been moved up the list of things to be done.

Thanks for sharing!

Cheers

Whitespy

29th April 2010, 07:35 AM

Wow they look good! What are you going to do for camber plates? What kind of scales are you using to get your corner weights? Great job on the fabrication.

HF Stinger

29th April 2010, 08:13 AM

Thanks guys, your support helps me stay enthused about this, at times, overwhelming project.

I live a few miles from Las Vegas Motor Speedway and there are a handful of shops up there where I can get the corner weights set, I haven't picked one in particular yet. It will likely be one of the last things I do with this project, but Im still looking forward to having it dialed in.

Im still tinkering with the idea of an upgraded top mount / camber plate. My to-do list is so long that I may put the suspension in as it sits now and try and win a few other battles before I address the camber plates. I will probably be leaning on the x1/9 guys for suggestions when that time comes.

I need to finish up the floorboards after I get the pedal box back in - its VERY nice being able to reach thru the floor to work under-dash lol Maybe the drivers front floorboard should be a removable panel ;o)

Whitespy

29th April 2010, 08:40 AM

Here is where you need to go for camber plates.

http://www.gforceengineering.net/fiat_products.htm

Don't drool too much.;)

You might be on to something with the floor board removal.

HF Stinger

2nd May 2010, 04:08 PM

Here is where you need to go for camber plates.

http://www.gforceengineering.net/fiat_products.htm

Don't drool too much.;)

You might be on to something with the floor board removal.

I had stumbled on those once before, they are beauties!! Let me see where my budget comes in before i commit to them ;o]

I decided to pull the front brakes apart for an overhaul. I haven't ordered a kit for them yet because I wasn't really sure what they were. This car had the old school Beta brake conversion which is described in the files section on the yahoo group and I think it was copied to here too. I was originally confused to what caliper these were since there is some material removed from the caliper itself to clearance them under the 13" wheels. The portion of material that was shaved off just happened to have the part number on it. They were stuck pretty hard, after a day and a half of getting soaked with PB Blaster I was able to free the piston in the bore and then use air pressure to get the pistons out. I measured the pistons and found they were the common 48mm size used in most of the Betas and lots of other cars too. What was different about these it that they are from a Beta with a single circuit as opposed to the dual circuit from the Beta Coupes / Zagato...

Here are the calipers after media blasting and a good cleaning. The bores cleaned up great, no pitting - good news that they were useable.
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/BrakeCaliper2.jpg

The shows how the profile of the caliper had been shaved down to clear the original 13" rim. The benefit to all of this was to use a larger diameter rotor off the Beta cars.
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/BrakeCaliper1.jpg

There is a slight correction in the offset as well as moving the caliper outward to mate with the larger rotor.
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/BrakeCarrier1.jpg

The original bosses were machined out to accept the new plate which was tapped and welded in.
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/BrakeCarrier2.jpg

Someone went though alot of work to dream this up, but I guess in those days there weren't many other options? Im curious to know if there were many (any) other cars converted like this.
http://scmclane.tripod.com/scorpion_1572/BrakeCarrier3.jpg

With the effort that went into this Im hoping the gains were proportional. It makes sense as far as the larger diameter rotors in combination with the bypassed booster, I'll try them and see how i like them. Ultimately I would like fully vented rotors with a 4 piston caliper.

Whitespy

2nd May 2010, 09:42 PM

Those look an awful lot like a mod described by PBS on what you need to do to an X1/9 to go racing. If all my books weren't packed away, I would have a look and see if it was. The PBS book has all the templates and the directions on how to do it. The mod that was used was, you use the front brakes on the back and the Beta brakes on the front and eliminate the e-brake.

HF Stinger

29th June 2010, 09:13 AM

It's amazing how ones motivation can be affected when the garage temps creep into the triple-digits... Anyway, I have received a couple boxes of goodies from TMH as well as others so I'll move on to some easy projects to give me that sense of accomplishment. The Audi is about to take priority as soon as my struts arrive, 6-8 week lead time has turned into 12+ and now I will be lucky to have the car ready to drive to Monterey for the historics in August...

Speaking of waiting, the 2 week turn around for the reupholstered leather seats is now currently at 5...

HF Stinger

6th September 2010, 09:27 PM

Well for the sake of dragging this thread to the front after way too long, I actually did work on the Scorpion today. Oddly enough it was only to make-room on the bench for another project, the Audi suspension upgrade. CV's are kinda like a puzzle, I guess I needed to do that puzzle 4 times today. I broke them down, thoroughly cleaned them and then lubed them back up with hi-pressure moly grease. Somewhere along the life of this car someone packed these things full of a red marine grease or something - it was hard as a rock.

Not the most exciting thing to look at but hey, a picture is work a thousand words - or at least a few new cuss words

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Scorp_CVs.jpg

bjmarsh

6th September 2010, 09:58 PM

Whitespy

7th September 2010, 11:16 AM

The only thing that the manual says is that the inner piece needs to be in correct or the joint will become locked. BTW when do you want me to send you your side skirts.

Warren

HF Stinger

7th September 2010, 06:46 PM

I have rebuilt plenty in my day and if you assemble it and it works smoothly you are generally good to go. I had one of these where I did have to swap two balls because it wasn't as free as I wanted it to be, as soon as I tried it again - all good. I can see if they are worn to the point that you should be replacing them or getting them machined to accept bigger balls, but this was a pretty straight forward clean and repack job on pieces that showed little wear. I will however swap the inners with the outers for good measure since the outers take a little more abuse from what I have always understood.

Jim Keller

13th September 2010, 03:24 PM

Matt at Midwest Bayless has been working on molds, I think they have them ready to make parts

sprintcarfan

17th September 2010, 10:21 AM

Matt at Midwest Bayless has been working on molds, I think they have them ready to make parts

Mold of what?

Celovsky

18th September 2010, 06:27 AM

Don't know if it is true but I have always heard:

"CV joints are precision fit assemblies, so the balls should be kept in order so they can be reassembled in their same respective positions as before. Each ball and track develop a unique wear pattern as the joint ages, so mixing up the balls may change tolerances and create problems that did not exist before the joint was disassembled."

That said I once R&R'd a CV joint, got the balls mixed up (even though I tried not to) and had no obvious problems with the joint.

Barry

True enough.... although I once had a CV joint of similar design, fail in my race car. Formula car, with the CV joint on the rear. It was in a corner at about 170 km/hr. Caused the rear wheel to misalign by ~90 degrees and I wound up hitting a concrete wall (getting a bit dazed in the process). It was an old CV joint that had not been serviced in many years. So they fail.

HF Stinger

28th October 2010, 10:53 PM

All the Audi funds have dried up and the projects are done.

Time to get back to the Scorpion. It's been a couple months since I really mentioned the engine mounts, but I had a pre-production set delivered and we installed them in Eddy T's car since mine isn't fit for testing engine mounts. The mounts were spot-on for a prototype and the install went swimmingly. Now that they have some miles on them and we've been able to give some feedback, they are in production now and hopefully coming to a Lancia Parts Dealer near you before the end of the year.

Here is the rear mount with the old bushing press - well hacked out. This mount had been changed once before and when they did it, they did a hack job themselves. Must have been a very dirty install without taking any time to clean the rust and crud off the old surface because it really scored the surface on the way in.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Lancia_mount1.jpg

This is what's left of the bushing i removed. It never would have come out with the press, my press is a 12 or 15 ton, and this mount made it it's bitch. My method is to use a hole saw to break out the rubber portion of the mount and then split the remaining metal ring and roll it out. Takes less than 10 minutes and works for all bushings of this type (control arms, subframes, etc.).

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Lancia_mount3.jpg

Here is the metal mount after cleaning and polishing the rust and scoring from the inside. Not perfect, but the raised portions were now as least flush.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Lancia_mount2.jpg

Im not sure if I showed the new mount in this thread yet. The mounts have been tooled to be solid, however the street version will have a low enough durometer to prevent being harsh. Many people don't realize the original mounts with the oval shaped voids were directional, alot of them were installed wrong and failed early. This solid mount will take that out of the equation. There will be a still track density mount as well to accommodate the high horsepower / track cars.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Scorp_Monte_mount_1.jpg

As with any bushing of this type, I put it in the freezer for a spell prior to pressing it. The tolerances were pretty nice, an easy press fit.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Lancia_mount4.jpg

Here is is in the cast iron mount, this one pressed out and in easier since it wasn't as garfed up inside.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Lancia_mount5.jpg

Anyway, these aren't on my car, but I might as well have kept it in my project thread since I needed first hand experience installing them before they went into production.

HF Stinger

28th October 2010, 11:18 PM

On to a Me-project. I have the pedal box out for refurb and to install new brake and clutch master cylinders. It has always bugged me how the brakes were set up in these cars, and more so after the booster has been bypassed. I ordered the newer (x1/9) brake master with three outlets and will be using all three ports. Im sending a separate line to each of the front brakes and a single back to the rear. Every last bit of the original line and booster crap will be removed. I feel this is safer and it will also allow me to adjust the fr/rr bias as I experiment with bigger brakes.

I wanted to keep the pedal box easily removable like the stock configuration. If I were to just drill a hole and feed a line though I would be guaranteed a mess inside the cabin if I had to take it apart again.

Here is a template Im using before I start bending sheet metal. Im moving the extra line a few inches right of the cluster to adapt to the contour of the chassis.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Brake_Line_1.jpg

It almost makes me giggle when I have such the perfect took for the job. These punches were heisted from an old government tool box headed for the trash, never really knew when I'd have the chance to use them, but they are the perfect sizes for the brake and the clutch bulkhead fittings.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Brake_Line_2.jpg

This is basically it. Offset the third brake fitting to the flatter portion of the 'firewall' beside the original mounting points.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Brake_Line_3.jpg

The mockup fits nicely in the car. I didn't have best selection of steel plate on hand, plus it was getting a little late for all that noise in the garage. I'll head over to Home Depot and get some sheet metal tomorrow and more pics will surely follow.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Brake_Line_4.jpg

I guess there is some cleaning and painting in order as well.
...not that anyone will ever look.

1,6 HF

29th October 2010, 01:36 AM

I guess there is some cleaning and painting in order as well.
...not that anyone will ever look.

Yeah, but you'll know... And you won't have to give it a thought again.

Interesting stuff.

HF Stinger

29th October 2010, 07:37 PM

I picked up some 16GA sheet metal from good ol' home depot. Took a few minutes to lay out the template and do some last minute measuring.

I Scribed the design on to the metal plate and cut it out with the air shears. I did a little bit of cleanup / finishing work then punched the holes.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Brake_Line_5.jpg

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Brake_Line_6.jpg

After the holes were in complete I made my bends and test fit it against the front bulkhead. This will be the orientation once installed on the pedal box.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Brake_Line_7.jpg

Here is the new bracket installed on the pedal box with all the lines in place.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Brake_Line_9.jpg

I was able to clean up and reuse one of the lines from the spare pedal box provided by Eddy T. There isn't much he doesn't have...

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Brake_Line_8.jpg

To summarize, the pedal box was completely disassembled and the pedal bushings removed, cleaned, and reinstalled. All are very smooth now. New Brake and Clutch master cylinders were installed. The brake master was 'upgraded' to the x1/9 style and the 3rd port was used to run individual lines to both front brakes and then a single line to the rears which will be split and sent to each side. This will take the stock bypassed brake booster completely out of the system, as well as removed from the car itself.

HF Stinger

17th July 2011, 09:29 PM

Hard to believe I haven't updated this since October. I migrated most of this project of to another site I frequent since it gets a lil' quiet around here sometimes an atta' boy or an ass kicking is needed on such a major project.

I'll pick up here:

Well, after a few months I now have a couple of happy Audi's (knock on wood) so I'll be migrating back to the Scorpion. I can get the Blue pill in and out of the garage quite routinely so I'll be able to get back to some metalworking and welding with hopes of closing up the Flintstone floorboards on the drivers side.

Since at least three holidays have come and gone since I last worked on the Scorpion I figured a peace offering was in order.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Camber_Plates.jpg

...and yea, they are just resting in place for entertainment purposes.

I think some similar ones were discussed in another thread here, relating to the car being suspended by the three bolts. I have two factors to consider:

A) this car is coming in at 2200 LB with the engine in the rear - I can't imagine quality hardware failing under these conditions.
B) there is ample room to actually bottom mount these if I get convinced that I shouldn't top mount them.

I have also decided to rebuild the 2.0L bottom end with the .080 oversized pistons combined with the 1.8L head. The head will get higher rate springs, larger valves, and a regrind on the intake cam. I'll fine some way to provide higher than atmospheric intake charge.

I'll be starting the engine teardown relatively soon.

HF Stinger

17th July 2011, 09:31 PM

With some other things settling down around here lately Im able to get focus back on the Scorpion project. I feel like every hour Im away or not in the garage is an hour I really would rather be working on this lil' bugger. The drivers side floorboards have been a big mental block for me but I really need to get over it and just roll up my sleeves and get at 'em.

Tonight I took some measurements and started cutting, before long I was bending, and by the time I was done I had a rear quarter floorboard. I didn't roll any beads in this one, I will be welding some hat channel to the underside. This will more closely mimic the original passenger side. At least it will be to the best of my abilities which is all Im hoping for on this entire project.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Driver_rear_patch.jpg

I have another set of measurements to take which is where the weld-nuts will be located to attach the seat tracks. I'll be updating as I progress with that.

The front quarter floorboard is going to be the real challenge - not looking forward to it.

My best pal in the world joined me tonight up until I started running the compressor. He is a week and a half post-op for kidney cancer. Ask him and he don't know the difference, he is eating like a horse again with hopes of regaining a good portion of that 20 pounds he lost while he was ill. The surgeon is confident they got all of the mass which cost him a kidney and then some, we need to keep an eye on his lungs, there is some suspect spots we'll be tracking. He hates the camera but I may be able to sneak a pic of the sutures. He has easily 20" of incision in two different directions.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Garage_pal.jpg

1,6 HF

17th July 2011, 09:37 PM

Sean,

Glad you're back into the work; it's very therapeutic.

And good luck to your friend, there; they can come back from that. I have a very sweet cat that went through three breast cancer surgeries a couple of years ago; three weeks ago she had her 18th birthday.

HF Stinger

17th July 2011, 09:38 PM

I'll spare you guys the ~20 pics of the engine teardown, the other site they enjoyed them and noted how robust the bottom end and the internals of our Lancia engines are.

I decided to clean the garage and spend some time on the Lancia, its a nice cool weekend here in Vegas - not too many of them left Im sure.

I used my passenger side template as a baseline for the drivers side. Pattern transferred and first cuts made.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Drivers_Floor_3.jpg

Rolled some beads to mimic the original.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Drivers_Floor_4.jpg

My brake is only 18" so I really had to improvise my bends. Learning from the other pieces it doesn't help to make them too exact cuz you'll end up hammering them anyway when it comes time to weld.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Drivers_Floor_5.jpg

Fit is pretty snug yet plenty of room for adjustment. Im going to do most of the welds on the upturned lengths and then panel bond the ledges.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Drivers_Floor_6.jpg

So now all the fun stuff is done for a while, it's time to start grinding and removing undercoating / insulation. Im looking forward to doing some more welding, maybe with gas this time instead of flux core.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Drivers_Floor_7.jpg

I placed the first order for engine rebuild items this week, the block will go into the machinist by the end of the week. Depending how brave I get, I may do some tricks to the bottom end / crank as per Guy Croft's book.

HF Stinger

17th July 2011, 09:41 PM

Winning!

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Screen_shot_2011-06-08_at_10.29.05_AM.png

It shipped pretty quickly from Portugal pretty quickly and a hub adapter is on the way, my fingers are crossed that its the proper fit.

HF Stinger

17th July 2011, 09:46 PM

After being away for two weeks of travel I had been obsessing a bit about making some more progress on the Scorpion. Saturday I caught up on some errands but Sunday I took advantage of another not-too-hot weekend in Vegas, we have been really lucky with the weather this year.

The floor pans have been done a month or so, today I hunkered down and got to it. I had a little bit of prep work to do to the surfaces of the car itself and then I was welding away.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/New_floor1.jpg

You can probably see where I started, once I got the settings tweaked - as well as my motor skills - it started coming together nicely.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/New_floor4.jpg

Im pretty happy with the rear section, the blips you see are from where I spotted some hat-channel to the bottom of the rear tray for extra rigidity where the seat will mount.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/New_floor2.jpg

The 2" flanges I bent really worked well to get my welds up into the 'good metal' which is somewhat of an oxymoron.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/New_floor3.jpg

I went thru all the effort to get the gas bottle and accessories to convert over and get away from the flux core but from what I have heard the flux core does better when there is a likelihood there are contaminants present.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/New_floor5.jpg

I guess this could actually be my last flux core job, Im about done welding on this guppy. Next I'll smooth out some of the lumpy welds and then get on to coating the bare metal and seam sealing the joints. I have that daggum rear quarter panel to swap but this thing is almost in the go-back-together stage.

HF Stinger

17th July 2011, 09:51 PM

Engine wise I dont have too much to share, the block is at the machine shop - told them not to hurry as I have another week of travel ahead of me. I ordered about a third of the required rebuild parts, time to get the rest of the stuff coming.

I did move on to something a little more fun. Now that the floors are done the rear quarter panel is my last big chassis project. I gotta be honest, Jimmy Green doing his metal wide body conversion provided a bit of inspiration for me to start tackling the body work. I kinda started just messing around with some scraps with the intention of trying out a couple new toys, mainly my shrinker/stretcher set.

This is what I cut out:

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/New_Quarter03.jpg

A template here, and couple of bends there, and some shrinkage around the way and I ended up with a couple pieces Im actually going to use.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/RearQtr_1.jpg

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/RearQtr_2.jpg

I may need some backup on straightening the area above the body line, I can't get behind it with a dolly. I guess the option would be to acquire a stud welder and pull the waves out. If anyone has some suggestions Im all ears.

So, that brings me up to current date with my project. Once the rear quarter is done it wont be long before I have to pick a color and move towards paint.

Darren

18th July 2011, 03:19 AM

Great work Sean - love seeing cars come back together. Lots of work done after a bit of a break - I can relate to that! ;o) I have one of those steering wheels in silver - like the look a lot but noty got round to fitting and changing from the deep dish unit I have. Like the strut top mounts and interested to see how that pans out. You mentioned bottom mounting them - can you elaborate?

Cheers

Darren

HF Stinger

18th July 2011, 08:55 AM

You mentioned bottom mounting them - can you elaborate?

Cheers

Darren

Thanks Darren.

On the upper mounts, I have noticed that on other forums guys catch some flack about bolting the plates to the top of the strut tower. This method suspends the car from those three bolts you see pointing up in the picture. On an Audi or some other nose-heavy pig I can see where it might be a concern but I don't see hi grade bolts failing on the light Scorpion.

My solution could be to actually mount them to the underside surface of the strut tower which places the load on the plate itself. This would require opening up the hole on the top of the tower a bit since I have to do that anyway to give myself a good range of adjustment. I'll have to compare the potential differences in ride height and just go from there.

1,6 HF

18th July 2011, 09:09 AM

Thanks Darren.

On the upper mounts, I have noticed that on other forums guys catch some flack about bolting the plates to the top of the strut tower. This method suspends the car from those three bolts you see pointing up in the picture. On an Audi or some other nose-heavy pig I can see where it might be a concern but I don't see hi grade bolts failing on the light Scorpion.

My solution could be to actually mount them to the underside surface of the strut tower which places the load on the plate itself. This would require opening up the hole on the top of the tower a bit since I have to do that anyway to give myself a good range of adjustment. I'll have to compare the potential differences in ride height and just go from there.

From a practical standpoint, with reinforcing plates/spread washers and high tensile strength bolts (pref. Mil. Spec, not just graded) you'll almost certainly get away with bolting the plate on top (though I don't really like the thickness of the washers/shims between the tower and the plates). Obviously, the loads are proportional to the weight, so they aren't that high at the front of a Scorpion, a you say. That said, relying on bolts in tension is never the best engineering practice. So I think you're right to look at the possibility of mounting them to the underside.

Darren

18th July 2011, 01:31 PM

Thanks Shane, that makes much more sense! I did think for a bit about how it would work at the other end of the strut! Look forward to seeing how it works out. The top of the strut tower does have a collar at the top I think that would need opening up. Not sure I'd go with over the top mounting, I'd be paranoid about the bolts failing.CheersDarren

sprintcarfan

18th July 2011, 02:29 PM

From a practical standpoint, with reinforcing plates/spread washers and high tensile strength bolts (pref. Mil. Spec, not just graded) you'll almost certainly get away with bolting the plate on top (though I don't really like the thickness of the washers/shims between the tower and the plates).

I agree. I've no idea what the shock loads are, but with three somewhat evenly loaded 10.9 M8's (look like M8's in the pic), they would have to be 30x the static weight (500lbs?) to have problems. I'm guessing the red anodized aluminum plate would fail long before the bolts? I'd be more worried about making sure the load from the three bolts are fed into the flimsy strut tower top with a backing plate. That area has several layers in it already, but the factory strut top (with the three little studs on it) acts as a load spreader, so something needs to replace that.

HF Stinger

18th July 2011, 04:48 PM

upnatum

18th July 2011, 07:33 PM

Hi,

Where did you find the wheel and how did you source the hub? I'm looking for a new wheel for my Scorpion.

HF Stinger

18th July 2011, 07:53 PM

Carl,

I bought the wheel from ebay seller: exocticarpart He has an ebay store and 100% rating, lots of vintage wheels and retro styles.

The hub was from ebay seller: luisiwheels The Montecarlo / Scorpion wheel was backordered but I received a release date and so far they have been right on schedule, this seller is also rated 100% positive.

I have my fingers crossed the car, the adapter, and the wheel all fit nicely. The tracking info says the adapter will arrive by the weekend.

1,6 HF

18th July 2011, 10:46 PM

I agree. I've no idea what the shock loads are, but with three somewhat evenly loaded 10.9 M8's (look like M8's in the pic), they would have to be 30x the static weight (500lbs?) to have problems. I'm guessing the red anodized aluminum plate would fail long before the bolts? I'd be more worried about making sure the load from the three bolts are fed into the flimsy strut tower top with a backing plate. That area has several layers in it already, but the factory strut top (with the three little studs on it) acts as a load spreader, so something needs to replace that.

Absolutely right. With an NAS M8, you're looking at what? 180,000 psi tensile? And with three of them per plate the bolts aren't going to be the problem. I mentioned "reinforcing plates/spread washers" because you're right about issue being load spreading. But I suspect bolt pull-out is the weakest part of this equation--probably more so than the aluminum plate (depending on alloy & temper). Ideally, I'd want to weld a full circular spreader plate to the inside of the tower (assuming you have enough access for a good weld).

And even though the ideal loading is purely axial, I don't like that much space between the top surface of the strut tower and the plate; too much chance for deflection. Again, though, the real forces probably aren't a problem.

upnatum

19th July 2011, 11:00 AM

77_scorp

19th July 2011, 12:01 PM

I really feel you on the steering wheel hunt! I love steering wheels, always have since working at a tuner show in my early 20's and find that there's a lot of great ones floating about online. I am actually using a Ferrari Mondial momo wheel and of all things.. A fiat 128 steering hub! Works fine for me.. MR FIAT on ebay has all this kind of thing in stock.

And when you said scorpion resurrection.. You meant it! Nice work there. Having finished my car officially I have to say
these cars a so amazing to drive when they are one piece and on the road.. I've said it before: They will be collectible with a good value soon and ARE worth restoring. I went to an Alfa tuner shop recently and was scoffed a little by the old timers, but they couldn't help but ask a million questions about the Lancia, it's just such a rare and wonderful car to see now days!

Good luck!

sprintcarfan

19th July 2011, 02:26 PM

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Camber_Plates.jpg

Will the hood/boot/bonnet/lid/whatever shut with that in place? I seem to remember either the front or rear strut towers have next to nothing for clearance.

HF Stinger

19th July 2011, 02:50 PM

Will the hood/boot/bonnet/lid/whatever shut with that in place? I seem to remember either the front or rear strut towers have next to nothing for clearance.

I haven't checked yet, only rested them in place for giggles. Those bolts that are pointing upwards will not point up then installed, this is just how they were shipped.

I can guarantee if they don't clear - they will by the time Im done. This is another reason for mounting them 'under' instead of 'over'.

HF Stinger

24th July 2011, 04:52 PM

I got home from my trip to the Bay Area and there was a coupe of boxes of goodies waiting for me. Still waiting for a couple engine rebuild bits but as soon as I get the balance shaft bearings I will be able to pick up the block.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/valve_spring.jpg

Also, the steering hub arrived and I test fit it to the steering shaft - works great. Sounds like luisiwheels is good option in the USA for Lancia / Monte hubs. I like the hub because it is drilled for both patterns so it will basically accept any 6-hole steering wheel. I wouldn't hesitate to order from them again, by the way this is model #2508 for anyone interested.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/photo3.jpg

HF Stinger

24th July 2011, 08:36 PM

I went out in the garage to start piecing together the head components that I'll be taking into the machine shop now that I have the valves.

-I have the head that came off the 2L engine (one large EGR port) - Lancia

-I have one head I was told came off another 2L (four small EGR ports) - Fiat

-I have the head that was shown earlier in this thread (suspected 1.8L no EGR ports) - Fiat

As I compared the three next to each other on the bench I notice the 1.8L(?) head has studs to secure the cam boxes rather than bolts, then I see the cam lobes are narrower than the 2L's sitting beside it. Next I see the combustion chamber looks significantly smaller, then I see the fire ring appears to be smaller as well. I laid the 2L head gasket on the head to see how much smaller the fire ring looked and then noticed the spacing of the cylinders are closer.

Do I have a 1.6L head? Was there an early enough version of the 1.8 that had closer cylinder spacing?

Im glad I took the time to really look at these, that non-EGR head was my first choice to start building - would have hated to spend the money on it and find it will not work on a 2L (late) block.

As it looks so far I will probably use the Lancia head with the Fiat intake cam tower. This will give me a head with no distributor drive for a much cleaner look since I'll be running crank fired ignition.

HF Stinger

9th August 2011, 12:10 AM

No opinions about the 1.6L huh? I think I have came to the realization that it is a 1.6 anyway.

Well then, here is my own little 'craigslist find of the day'

There was a set of Sparco Milano seats in blue alcantara on CL. Owner had them listed for $400 so I arranged to go see them. On the phone he told me they didn't come with sliders since they were out of an IS300. Still sounded like a fair deal so I went to take a peek. He told me he was going to go out and vacuum them since they had been listed for a while but nobody ever showed up no matter how many calls he got on them. I asked if he was flexible and he said if I actually showed up and liked them he'd let them go for $300.

I was happily surprised in their condition and noticed a very basic flat slider on the bottom of them. When I asked him about them he said another guy had offered a hundred bux for the sliders alone - but never came to get them either. I showed interest in the rails since they were almost perfect for the Lancia anyway. I offered him the same $300 for the pair of seats WITH the rails and he agreed, he just wanted them gone and since there was someone that actually followed thru on the deal he helped me load them in the Q5.

Two of these:

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/SparcoMilano.JPG

They are good enough to use as is, but I have decided the car is going to be Ford Grabber Orange so Im opting for a re-covering in durable black bolsters with a black or charcoal colored alcantara with orange double-stitching.

Something inspired by these:

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/Lamborghini-Gallardo-LP-570-4-Superleggera-2011-014.jpg

Other than that I snuck out of work long enough to pick up my block from the machinist. Im picking the best combo of pieces from the multiple heads in the garage to make a head to run above-atmospheric conditions.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/block.jpg

1,6 HF

9th August 2011, 10:07 PM

No opinions about the 1.6L huh? I think I have came to the realization that it is a 1.6 anyway.

...

I didn't chime in earlier because I thought the "1.6L" was a typo. But I'd say that's extremely unlikely. The 1600 was never available in the US, and certainly not in a Scorpion. But it's simple to tell if it's a 1600; the 1600 has an 80mm bore, instead of the 84mm bore of the 1800/2000. I will be amazed if yours measures 80mm.

HF Stinger

9th August 2011, 11:27 PM

Ed, this was just a head that was given to me so it's not a 1.6L engine Im scratching my head over - it's just a head. I originally picked this head to be the 'chosen one' due to the shape of the combustion chamber shape as well as the fact that it was pre-EGR. Eddy T always thought something was odd about the head because it had studs in place of the bolts the secure the cam towers. You can see a picture on this head on the bench on page one of this thread.

It wasn't until I laid the head gasket over the combustion chambers that I realized the cylinder spacing was quite different. The fire ring is also much smaller diameter than on the 2L heads lying on the bench next to it. When I was on the MWBayless site they made reference to 'desirable' cams for their regrinds were the 'narrow lobe' 1.6L cams.

Eddy T has a 1.6 block and no head, I have a head. At one point we may turn it have into an engine but only for fun. I have no intentions of going backwards in displacement.

1,6 HF

10th August 2011, 12:15 AM

HF Stinger

10th August 2011, 06:04 AM

Ed, there isn't much to miss. I simply had a spare head that was given to me, I was going to use it for my build because it was non-EGR but found it wouldn't work for on 1.8/2.0 because it was for a 1.6 I thought I'd stir some discussion about the 1.6 because I knew it was NOT supposed to be here or at least not common to have one.

The comment about mating it to Eddy's short block was simply to assemble it to possibly sell and the the junk out or both of our respective garages.

I have no intentions of assembling a 1.6 for my own use in a scorpion.

sprintcarfan

10th August 2011, 08:40 AM

What's the casting number on the head? It could be any of the Fiat/Lancia engine family. From the Guy Croft book.....

4743

1,6 HF

10th August 2011, 06:28 PM

Sean,

Oh, I get that it's just a random part you were given. The only thing I don't understand is why Eddy T (or anyone else over here) would end up with 1600 engine parts at all. As you obviously know all too well, a 1600 head isn't usable with the larger displacement engines, and it's too big to use as a paperweight...

HF Stinger

10th August 2011, 06:55 PM

The PO of my car threw it in on the deal since he planned to use it someday but he probably didn't realize it wasn't compatible with the 1756 / 1995 bottom end. I had blindly assumed I could use it until I started to look closely at it and determined it wasn't going to happen. ...glad I hadn't spent any money to machine it. Like I said before, someday for fun Eddy and I may make a running engine with it since we both have 'half' lol Otherwise it may become an ebay item since I know I'll never build a small-bore.

I have Guy's book, it wasn't listed there. The casting number is 4239436 which pops up in many a google result as a 1608 from a 124 Sport Coupe.

This was the nicest document I found in relation to matching up what-you-got's: http://www.fiatparts.com/carb.pdf Might make a good upload here at lancisti as a matter of fact.

HF Stinger

10th August 2011, 06:58 PM

Ed, now I must respectfully ask - Wasn't the 124 Sport sold in the US? I have seen them but assumed they were of normal avail.

10th August 2011, 07:11 PM

A set of cams is one thing--that I can understand borrowing. But why would anyone be playing with a 1600 engine for a Scorpion? Why would anyone even have a 1600 block or head? Eddy T's certainly a guru on these things, but I'm sure missing something.

There is a reason. Lancias never had the 1.6 in them here in the USA but the early FIAT 124s did. And there were two different 1.6s which still causes some level of confusion.

1971 through early 1973 124s had the 1608 which had a 80 mm bore. That head won't work on a 1756 or 1995. Late 1973 124s had a 1592 engine with a 84 mm bore. This was a transitional engine to the 1756 which came in 1974. As I understand it, the block was the essentially same as the 1756 but only had a different crankshaft. You can supposedly convert it to a 1.8 by installing a 1.8 crank. Heads from this engine WILL fit a 1756 or 1995.

1,6 HF

10th August 2011, 07:12 PM

Ed, now I must respectfully ask - Wasn't the 124 Sport sold in the US? I have seen them but assumed they were of normal avail.

Well, that's a fair point; the early Fiat 124 Sport Spiders sold here were indeed 1600s--initially just over 1600cc and later just under, IIRC.

lancia_x120

10th August 2011, 07:38 PM

1971 through early 1973 124s had the 1608 which had a 80 mm bore. That head won't work on a 1756 or 1995. Late 1973 124s had a 1592 engine with a 84 mm bore. This was a transitional engine to the 1756 which came in 1974. As I understand it, the block was the essentially same as the 1756 but only had a different crankshaft. You can supposedly convert it to a 1.8 by installing a 1.8 crank. Heads from this engine WILL fit a 1756 or 1995.

1608 had 80mm bore and 80mm stroke
1592 had 80mm bore and 79.2mm stroke
1756 had 84mm bore and 79.2mm stroke
1995 had 84mm bore and 90mm stroke

1,6 HF

11th August 2011, 02:21 AM

.... Late 1973 124s had a 1592 engine with a 84 mm bore. This was a transitional engine to the 1756 which came in 1974. As I understand it, the block was the essentially same as the 1756 but only had a different crankshaft. ...

I thought the 1592 was exactly the same as the 1608, just slightly de-stroked. But I never thought the 1592 was created as a transition to the larger engine; I've always thought it was simply a de-stroke to drop below 1600 for race class limitations. But looking at Dave's post, it appears that you're right--except the crank and rods are the carry-over, not the bore.

11th August 2011, 09:46 PM

I thought the 1592 was exactly the same as the 1608, just slightly de-stroked. But I never thought the 1592 was created as a transition to the larger engine; I've always thought it was simply a de-stroke to drop below 1600 for race class limitations. But looking at Dave's post, it appears that you're right--except the crank and rods are the carry-over, not the bore.

Yep. My head was up my arse. Memory too faded. But the 1592 is still a bit different than the 1608. I once had a 1592 engine and I believe that I remember that it's water passages in the head were different than the 1608. I believe that they match up to later blocks.

I had the crank thing backwards. The 1592 crank can be used directly in the 1756.

lancia_x120

12th August 2011, 10:17 PM

Yep. My head was up my arse. Memory too faded. But the 1592 is still a bit different than the 1608. I once had a 1592 engine and I believe that I remember that it's water passages in the head were different than the 1608. I believe that they match up to later blocks.

I had the crank thing backwards. The 1592 crank can be used directly in the 1756.

The 1592 has the same bore spacing as the 1756 and the 1995; greater than the 1608 and 1438 engines. That's why the early heads won't work unless you partially weld up the front water passage. As you mentioned, the 1592 head will fit directly on the 1756 and 1995.

Mark

HF Stinger

3rd September 2011, 11:24 PM

I have been anxious to get the bottom end put back together but wasn't sure what my rod situation was going to be. I had found this company in Australia and decided to give them a shot. Super quick shipping, got them in less than a week.

http://www.hfstinger.com/scorpion_1572/H-Beam_Rods.jpg

I have found a nice option for tube header / turbo, waiting to pull the trigger. Once I sent the money it will be about three weeks out.

I think it's going to be very realistic to plan on attending one of those California vintage road rally / tours next spring - I can almost see a light flickering at the end of that long tunnel.