Any Aurelia's out there?

[LanciaDave]

I've always liked the Aurelia. Like many a Lancisiti, I'd like to own an Aurelia coupe someday. Circumstances lately have not been beneficial to this goal. While my personal stiuation has resulted in a career change and the need to put a nicely restored car further into the future, it seems all Aurelia's have risen dramatcially in price! Led of course by the Spider, then convertible, cars with competition history, nicely restored cars with special options, history, or equipment, and lately seemingly any B20 GT Coupe. I believe this has resulted from stock market dips wherein investors needed to find alternate investment vehicles as well as muscle cars leaving the heigth of popularity and price as gas reached $4 to $5 a gallon US. It seems this can't be the sole cause as the Aurelia's rise had already begun before these events all played out, so I can only assume the masses have become aware of Lancia's many innovations and what a good car the Aurelia is. Unfortunately this may mean such cars may remain at a higher price point.

Being a practical guy, this makes me wonder about the sedan as an alternate. Are B12's or any of the others still available? Do they have similar power or handling? Are their prices still more moderate? Where might I be able to find one?

Any information provided would be helpful. In the meantime I will enjoy my other Lancia's.

Thank you,
Dave Decker
Woodburn, OR. USA

[1,6 HF]

IMO, the B10 or B12 berlinas are great alternatives to the GT. They'll be a lot cheaper to buy (probably the same maintenance and/or restoration costs), and I'm told the performance and handling is very close to that of the GT. The problem is finding one; it's easier to find a GT or Spider / Convertible for sale.

I don't think that Aurelia prices reflect their discovery by the masses; it's hard to imagine that these cars are on the radar of the "investor" looking for an alternate place to park his money. Spider prices seem to have been a bit of a bubble, so I'd expect those prices to soften a little. But I think that much of the price inflation is probably due more the fact that there aren't that many Aurelias out there. In the case of the GT, where prices have just been increasing slowly but steadily, I wouldn't expect any drop in prices. All of which makes the berlina worth looking at.

[Geoff]

The rise in Aurelia prices reflect growing appreciation of their "usefulness" in the classic car world: they give similar pleasure (and in some cases greater) to the other 1950's options available to the collector. For years they were discounted due to lack of familiarity and complexity. But if you are a Ferrari collector, a usable Spider at 20% of the cost (approx) of a Ferrari equivalent is a worthwhile consideration. Once those collectors drive one, they find its charms and are hooked.

I know of one guy who fell into that trap,now he has four friends with B20's. They get the top picks of the litter at $120k, and they are quite happy, thinking of how easy the car is compared to the cost of their other cars....Those guys don't want troublesome cars, they want workable good cars, and paying for that is not a problem for them.

There are only a limited number of good alternatives at the middle of the 1950's pack - at the $70-150k (before correction). , Each has its appeal and strengths, but also each has its foibles: Jaguars XK's are good value, but not so special. They are heavy and hard to drive for long distances. Alfa 1900's coupes are better but not so sophisticated as the Aurelia. Special Giuliettas are grat altenatives, but buzzy. The TZ's have gone through the roof, so fun ones (lightened Sprints and Zagatos) are also not cheap. And they are just 4 cyl. There are not so many others - Austin Healeys are too agricultural and common, unless you find an alum bodied one. Early Astons, like a DB 2 is nice, and a comparable.

Once one begins to lay out the lineup, it makes sense that these guys, the user/collectors see a B20 now in the running, and its no longer a $40k car, but a $100+k car.

Lancias may have been underappreciated due to the lack of good information and parts availability. The internet and recent publications have eased that issue. Parts are still an issue, at least in the US, altho Mike K. does a great job. One has to be a good thoughtful mechanic to get them right,and they have to be done right. That they are quite practical after that work effort is known to us Lancista, but not nec. to the more fast-moving investor/collector.

As to your question about alternatives - a few exist: depending on your budget, a user B20 isn't too far off the charts, but will cost in deferred maintenance - brakes, motor for example. Beware. These get costly.

The berlinas are a fine alternative. I have lusted for a B12 sedan for years, and while not searching for one now, somedays think the road not taken might have been a better one.... They are almost unfindable in the US, altho they can be found in Europe. A good one is likely to be $30-40k, at least it was.... Again, beware deferred maintenance, as it is an expensive lesson. If you want to find on e of these, let me know, and I can point you to some people.

Another option is the Appia - they are made similarly to an Aurelia, without the complexity, but with greater durability and a wonderful charm of their own. Much more affordable.

Geoff

[ncundy]

B10's and B12's are lovely cars - more leisurely but more refined with a slightly different appeal. Certainly they are less expensive to buy than B20, but cost no less to look after or restore as they are essentially the same beast underneath.

One worrying side effect of the increase in prices in the UK (driven by the new "type" of owner; as described perfectly by Geoff) is what I call the Ferrari pricing effect on spares and restoration, coupled with new owner ignorance or snobbery.

Pricing for Ferrari parts and work seems to be calculated on the basis that if you own a Ferrari you must be rich therefore prices align themselves on the perception of the wealth of the owner. As these more wealthy collector/owners have got into the market they are taking their cars not to the established Aurelia specialists (who are affordable), but to their Ferrari/Maserati/Bugatti specialists (who aren't). These are in turn becoming a "must have" on the history of the car to maintain value when it comes to sell, and the inevitable spiralling of running costs has already started. Those owners who could afford the cars but who had no mechanical aptitude or inclination are beginning to run out of affordable places to send the car as they slowly get priced out of the market.

Whilst a concern for the long run it can lead to some amusing little anecdotes.

One such "stuck up snob" refused to send his problematic engine to probably the best established Aurelia specialist in the UK because he "wasn't a professional engineer and it will effect the value of my car come re-sale". Instead he had it rebuilt be a very well know specialist more used to preparing Maserati 250F's, Ferrari Dinos and Auto Unions (!!) - I don't know the price paid but............

Anyway what he doesn't know (probably to this day - it happened about 6 months ago) is that the first thing the said specialist did was to contact the "wasn't a professional engineer and it will effect the value of my car come re-sale" specialist because he was the only person he trusted to advise him on what to do :) Proof that some people appreciate what is out there - but the Aurelia landscape is changing (certainly in the UK) and it is unfortunately getting to the stage where you have to be a wealthy person to run one.

Geoff’s suggestion of looking at an Appia is becoming quite compelling


Neil

[1,6 HF]

I think Geoff's suggestion of an Appia berlina as an alternate to an Aurelia berlina is an inspired one. Appia berlinas are much easier to find, much cheaper to buy and run, and have great Lancia character.

[Geoff]

I think Geoff's suggestion of an Appia berlina as an alternate to an Aurelia berlina is an inspired one. Appia berlinas are much easier to find, much cheaper to buy and run, and have great Lancia character.

Well, lets not get too excited. I have an Appia sedan, and love it dearly... it has loads of Lancia character, and is a wonderful car....but it isn't an Aurelia. Its a bit too small for the 6', and while it will cruise happily all day at 65 (even up to 75, but less fun up there), its no 75-85 mph cruiser like an Aurelia.

It is a bit lacking in power, and one could describe the accellerator pedal as a two position switch: fully on or off. Of course, living in the midwest with no hills on the horizon does temper ones judgment, to be sure.

Appias have a unique charm for being filled with Lancia-essence, and their unbelievable build quality and reliability is just a delight. THey are however bulletproof. It is simpler, but not cheapened.

I've often wondered about an Aprilia, and came to the conclusion that an Appia gives the same performance, with greater reliability. I don't know if that is true, but they are good cars. Being in one for a distance changes ones perception of the world - its the path of quality not taken. Aurelias are another animal entirely - and someone years ago told me that Appias were more true to the basic Lancia genes.... If one looks at Lambdas, Augustas, Artenas (not the Astura) and Ardeas (not the Aprilia), there is some truth in that thought.

[1,6 HF]

Geoff,

Don't get me wrong; I wasn't suggesting that an Appia had the same level of comfort and touring capabilities as an Aurelia--let alone the power. As such, I think the Appia ought to be regarded less as a replacement than an alternative--a scaled-down alternative.

I'm probably getting in way over my head, but in terms of the earlier cars I would have thought the Appia was more comparable to the Ardea than the Aprilia--with the Aurelia being more the successor to the Aprilia.

In any case, your comments about bulletproof reliability are borne out by the fact that a trio of Appias drove from California to Cape Cod last year.

[Geoff]

Ed -

Its all for fun, so not to worry about over your head. Having ridden in one or two Aprilias, I can't honestly claim much info about them - but in power/weight, the Appia seemed kind of close (edge to Aprilia, but not by much). The Ardea is a ways back in power, albeit lighter than the Appia.

As to bulletproof, well, the Appia needs service about every 2-3 years, the Aurelia several times a year. The Appia has its original starter, generator, etc. now some 50 years on. The Aurelia seems to need new generator work every 3-5 years. The Appia has its original clutch, suspension etc. as well.

The gearbox attached to the motor, and the live beam rear suspension just work, without issue. When well sorted out, its a good ride.

Gee - should we be posting in the Appia forum?
Geoff

[1,6 HF]

Being a practical guy, this makes me wonder about the sedan as an alternate. Are B12's or any of the others still available? Do they have similar power or handling? Are their prices still more moderate? Where might I be able to find one?

B12 at Coy's, 18 May:
http://www.coys.co.uk/auctions/lot.php?auction=88&id=56269

[cyoungberg]

Good find, Ed. I could access your link, but going onto the Coys website, I couldn't access the cars being sold, just the automobilia.

In any event, I agree with you that the Aurelia Berlina is a bargain and this one is fairly estimated in the posting. It looks like its interior was redone properly in period material.

Shipping the car to the U.S. is not inexpensive and transporting it from Monaco to a port is Europe is also expensive. One major drawback of the car is that it is right hand drive, which can be a bit harrowing in Southern California freeway traffic. Lancia did build left hand drive versions of the Berlina, and to me that would be preferable. As an aside, many people like the right hand drive as the car is a bit easier to place on narrow mountain roads. Perhaps Geoff could give us his impression of driving a right hand drive car in modern U.S. traffic.

The Berlina has a lot going for it in terms of comfort and performance per dollar. I love the door openings in my Appia Berlina. The handling should be very similar to the B20 Coupe.

If one is serious about an Aurelia, he should obtain the Neils Jonassen's book, Lancia Aurelia in Detail, which covers the cars and design element very well.

Having started out with an Appia berlina, I am partial to purchasing an Appia Berlina as a starting point to learn about Lancia's. The Appia is a much simpler car and allows one to get the feel for early Lancias and make a great stepping stone to the Aurelia. I drove mine accross country with no problems last summer and would do it again. The Appia is a pleasure to drive on the two lane highways.

Ebay.it also has from time to time Aurelia Berlina's. Also try anamera.com and classicdriver.de. The Berlina is an incredible bargain.

[1,6 HF]

Coy’s links aren’t very good; I had the same problem. It did seem like a fair estimate, though, and it looks like a decent car. I’d have the same misgivings about an RHD car in the US, but I wouldn’t be too put off by the shipping.

BTW, when I was looking at buying a Fulvia 1600HF in Switzerland, about 2-1/2 years ago, I discovered that it would cost about $2500 (at that time) to fly it here. It’s generally easier and cheaper to get a car to an airport with freight capabilities than to a container port, and it’s obviously much quicker in transit. More importantly, because of dockside handling costs and other fees, it would have been no more expensive to fly it than to ship by boat. Worth keeping in mind.

[Geoff]

In any event, I agree with you that the Aurelia Berlina is a bargain and this one is fairly estimated in the posting. It looks like its interior was redone properly in period material.

Shipping the car to the U.S. is not inexpensive and transporting it from Monaco to a port is Europe is also expensive. One major drawback of the car is that it is right hand drive, which can be a bit harrowing in Southern California freeway traffic. Lancia did build left hand drive versions of the Berlina, and to me that would be preferable. As an aside, many people like the right hand drive as the car is a bit easier to place on narrow mountain roads. Perhaps Geoff could give us his impression of driving a right hand drive car in modern U.S. traffic.

The Berlina has a lot going for it in terms of comfort and performance per dollar. I love the door openings in my Appia Berlina. The handling should be very similar to the B20 Coupe.

If one is serious about an Aurelia, he should obtain the Neils Jonassen's book, Lancia Aurelia in Detail, which covers the cars and design element very well.
.

Certainly the LHD is preferable, but he RHD does have its moments. I spent last summer acquainting myself with an early s.2 B20, only available (s. 1-3) in RHD. Originally, I thought "no big deal" as I've driven RHD in the US. My wife was none too pleased - as being in the drivers seat with no wheel or anything else to do sort of confuses her. So that is not great.

The driving part is generally just fine. One has to watch for drifting when tired to the left (tendency to center the driver on the LHD lane position), but mostly its fine. Its nice for parking - get out at the curb, not the street! On back roads, just fine, altho passing on two lane roads is clearly a challenge - but at night, when you can see the lights of oncoming traffic its much easier.

The hardest part were the toll booths - but with either a second person, or electronic toll paying, that's pretty easy. Otherwise a hassle.

Finally, there is the shifting/clutch relationship with the left side and the elbow of the right arm out the right window. Takes some time to get used to the window, but the shifting is actually pretty easy to get used to.

All in all, its not quite the same - I'd recognize it as a mark down, but for some cars (like early Italian sports cars) there are no choices, and one adapts. For the B12 berlina and later B20's - I'd hold out for the LHD. For one who wants the earlier car (lightness and close to the original design), I wouldn't let it hold you back. For an Appia sedan, its probably fine as well.

one last thing on Aurelia sedans as "bargains" - the upfront cost is less, but the running costs are close to the same. Beware buying anything needing lots of work. I'm in the midst of redoing brakes in the Appia, and the cost of the work vs. the value of the car is not a discussion to have. On the other hand, get a good running, fettled berlina, and have a lot of fun.
Geoff

[Geoff]

FWIW, Pete Vack at Veloce Today (web site) is warming up on older Lancias. He's started a multi-part series on the B20, and has posted an article on B20's and an Aprilia spotted in Bristol at an auto show.

OK - truth be known: he did get a lot of info and pictures from.... well, you can figure it out!

http://www.velocetoday.com/archives/2748

Geoff

[Zane]

Well, I am happy to introduce myself. My family has owned our 1958 Lancia Aurelia B24 convertible for the past 38 years and it has recently been handed down to me to start the restoration process. I'm happy to say I'm not into this restoration for profit or an investment, rather I have an immeasurable equity of memories with my father and this car. It is a car that I hope to hand down to one of my three children some day.

The car has sat in a garage for the past 34 year with less than 10k miles driven on it during those years. It is in need of some TLC, but my goal is to get it road worthy so it can be enjoyed on the weekends. First thing to tackle are the brakes as they need restoration from sitting so long. The engine seems strong and the body is rust free. I am looking for some original seats as somehow they have been thrown away many years back. :confused: but that is low on my list!

Anyway. I simply wanted to introduce myself and my Aurelia.

Zane

[shaun pond]

Zane, welcome to the forum.

And thanks for posting photos of that nice B24. It's a lovely car -- though personally I think that the headrests need to go.

I hope you'll share stories and pictures as you get it back on the road.

Regards

[Timo04]

FWIW, Pete Vack at Veloce Today (web site) is warming up on older Lancias. He's started a multi-part series on the B20, and has posted an article on B20's and an Aprilia spotted in Bristol at an auto show.

OK - truth be known: he did get a lot of info and pictures from.... well, you can figure it out!

http://www.velocetoday.com/archives/2748

Geoff


Hi Geoff,

Thank you for your post here. I really liked your piece on the Aurelia suspension; de Dion vs fully independent. I thought this was a very interesting point about the 4th series being more of highway car, so to speak, vs a car to toss around on the tight twisty mountain roads. Although the 4th series is certainly no slouch on mountain roads to be sure! At least according to my father's accounts as he made several trips over the Sierra Nevada mountains in an Aurelia.

After reading your article I now understand why my father loved driving his 4th series B20s coupe so much; he loved it for the GT qualities it defined. Back when he "commuted" between the L.A. basin and the S.F. Bay Area for his business (circa 1969 to 1975), he did just the type of driving in that car that you described the 4th series is best suited for. He claimed the car would enjoy running all day long at around 90mph (Nardi cam & intake manifold equipped) and get him between point A and point B in speed AND comfort. He said he would not feel beat up at the end of the trip. In fact his friend who introduced him to Lancia in the mid 1960's, owned several Ferraris and Lancias, advised him to buy an Aurelia because it is "more practical" being easier to keep in tune, than any Ferrari, and more comfortable for extended road trips.

Thanks again for all your work on keeping the memories alive!

Tim

[Parisien]

I tried to do a quote type answer to Ncundys post but my computer was having none of it!!!!

Realising that Neil and his father have been leading lights in many ways, both on this forum and others, plus knowing acres of info about a huge range of Lancias, I bow continually to their vastly superior knowledge and experience.

Neils comments about "Ferrari" type costs involved and snob related issues in both pricing of parts and one-up-man-ship in using certain high end restorers/workshops, is a concern both to myself and other relative newbies on the Lancia scene, especially if restoring one!

I know my funds are relatively finite and by relying on a longstanding mechanic/body man to do most of the work at more than competitive rates, am hoping to at least, not be exposed to the very worst of excesses when getting work done and when buying in necessary parts and materials.

As one very helpful member (there are quite a few on this forum thankfully) has noted, I will have to pay the piper for lots of parts, but when taking purity and/or originality into account I am prepared to compromise or indeed lessen costs in several areas.

Areas such as common electrical parts of the era or indeed more up-to-date substitutes either to reduce purchase costs or become more reliable/reduced running costs. Sourcing items/parts through different suppliers, sharing of info regarding non-original parts that can be modified to produce a better outcome when refurbing engines.

Having wondered about all these things, I suspect savings may well be limited and perhaps when I begin to do the sums, restoring my B12 whilst paying B20 cost scales may prove very difficult.

I hope this post stimulates some interest/ideas/alternatives or indeed general debate on the issue of keeping the lesser models on the road!


P

[Parisien]

I think this is a good example of what Neil was referring to -

http://annunci.ebay.it/annunci/ricambi-e-accessori/vicenza-annunci-sovizzo/lancia-aurelia/12375851

"Buy pieces Lancia Aurelia.
For B10 I have the rear lights, license plate light with a beautiful written aurelia, headlights (NEW era never used the basket) all instruments.
B20 For the second set of headlights complete with shopping cart.
Buy only single block anything separately."

And all for the princely sum of 4000 euros........yes.....4000 euros.


P

[Rick]

B10's and B12's are lovely cars - more leisurely but more refined with a slightly different appeal. Certainly they are less expensive to buy than B20, but cost no less to look after or restore as they are essentially the same beast underneath.

One worrying side effect of the increase in prices in the UK (driven by the new "type" of owner; as described perfectly by Geoff) is what I call the Ferrari pricing effect on spares and restoration, coupled with new owner ignorance or snobbery.

Pricing for Ferrari parts and work seems to be calculated on the basis that if you own a Ferrari you must be rich therefore prices align themselves on the perception of the wealth of the owner. As these more wealthy collector/owners have got into the market they are taking their cars not to the established Aurelia specialists (who are affordable), but to their Ferrari/Maserati/Bugatti specialists (who aren't). These are in turn becoming a "must have" on the history of the car to maintain value when it comes to sell, and the inevitable spiralling of running costs has already started. Those owners who could afford the cars but who had no mechanical aptitude or inclination are beginning to run out of affordable places to send the car as they slowly get priced out of the market.

Whilst a concern for the long run it can lead to some amusing little anecdotes.

One such "stuck up snob" refused to send his problematic engine to probably the best established Aurelia specialist in the UK because he "wasn't a professional engineer and it will effect the value of my car come re-sale". Instead he had it rebuilt be a very well know specialist more used to preparing Maserati 250F's, Ferrari Dinos and Auto Unions (!!) - I don't know the price paid but............

Anyway what he doesn't know (probably to this day - it happened about 6 months ago) is that the first thing the said specialist did was to contact the "wasn't a professional engineer and it will effect the value of my car come re-sale" specialist because he was the only person he trusted to advise him on what to do :) Proof that some people appreciate what is out there - but the Aurelia landscape is changing (certainly in the UK) and it is unfortunately getting to the stage where you have to be a wealthy person to run one.

Geoff�s suggestion of looking at an Appia is becoming quite compelling


Neil

Maybe these cars are 6 figure cars because this phenomonon feeds it. I have no fear of anything mechanical that I can do myself or ask my mechanic for help to do. When cars become so sophisticated to warrant such special treatment it rather explains why such owners (those with the money) are the newbies and the wannabes must pay the price of ownership. It might explain why lesser model values like the Fulvia have lanquished. PS Parisien this is not an insult..I sympathize with your pain and frustration..Your early experience underscores why many of the most costly cars to restore remain silent under tarps.

[Parisien]

Having bought a replacement petrol sender for my Alfa coupe last year for £18 odd quid, I see one for sale for the B12.....comparing the two and looking at how they are made and the materials......why is this one 12 times more expensive?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GALLEGGIANTE-SERBATOIO-BENZINA-PER-LANCIA-AURELIA-B10-B12-FLOAT-TANK-EPOCA-/270645360471?pt=Ricambi_automobili&hash=item3f03b87757

Ever so slightly flabbergasted........


P

[1,6 HF]

That's a genuine vintage barbaresco cork...

[Parisien]

That's a genuine vintage barbaresco cork...

.......would have said more of a Barolo cork myself..........


P

[rossocorsa]

I think it is wise not to take too much notice of Italian parts prices on eBay there are a lot of sellers on there that are a bit nuts on parts values even Beta parts can be crazy prices on there and that's a car that still seems to be regarded a common place old banger in Italy. I don't think the expensive parts often sell (at least Beta ones) but cheaper ones do appear and they get bought quite quickly establishing the true value.

[Francisco Javier]

This one is for sale in Italy. The prices are rising: 35000 euro (probably +10000 in 5 years)
http://www.subito.it/auto/lancia-aurelia-b-12-s-rovigo-31841062.htm

[jellisfeingold]

Funny to be responding to a thread started in 2009, but time flies, huh? I'm the second owner of a 6th series coupe, B20S-1829. I bought the car in 1977 from the late Furman Stout, of Indianapolis. Geoff's web site details how he bought his Appia from Stout's estate. Stout and I discussed an Aurelia/Appia package deal back in '77, as well, but I had my hands full with a '62 Appia Sport (Zagato), a 5th Series RHD coupe that I imported from Southeast Asia (now owned by Thomas Sciortino), and an ill-advisedly purchased Beta Coupe. At that time I may also have had the Spider (B24S-1166) in which my father taught me to drive, and gave me when I turned 16 back in the 1960s. That Spider has returned to Italy. I guess those are my bona fides, which I lay out as preface to the points I want to make or reiterate.

Underlying this thread is nostalgia for the days when one could drive Aurelias daily, and drive them as they should have been driven. Spares were scarce, but little was unobtainable, and one needn't be wealthy to own, drive, and maintain one of these cars. Hell, my family bought the '55 Spider for $600 in the early '60s and we dropped in the Nardi engine from a crashed 4th Series coupe to get it on the road. I drove that Spider throughout my high school years, year-round, including through Connecticut winters. Until about 1970 I worked at a place called "The Foreign Car Shop" that - get this, folks - worked on foreign cars! We serviced everything - VW, Ferrari, Alfa, Borgward(!), Porsche, Lancia, Renault, Volvo, BMC, etc., etc. Yes, there were specialists we'd call or who'd come in for a day to deal with special weirdo cars or issues; later, in the mid-70s I became the Lancia guy for Motorsport Motors, in Indianapolis. Try to find places like that now. Hence, we get the Ferrari repair shop syndrome, and prices to match.

Aurelia parts has become a terrible issue. I tuned out for a few years, and when I woke up Tom Sheehan was gone, as was the ALC consortium (I held ALC membership card #96), and eBay was listing things like those lights for 4,000 Euros! Damned if I'm going to take my Aurelia out on a public roadway where some SUV is going to bash my Carello headlight rim. This is tragic. Gone are the days (1978-1983) when I commuted daily - and, again, year-round! - into Indianapolis and Boston in my Appia Sport. I knew an aluminum wizard who for a few bucks would occasionally and deftly roll dents out of my soft Zagato skin.

The good news, at least, is that the Aurelia and Appia mechanicals are nearly bulletproof, so these cars can take horrid abuse and keep on going, even as aged automobiles. But doing so with them now is taking a terrible risk, since there are no more Foreign Car Shops, and we know the spares situation. So, for most of us of modest means, we've entered the age of pampering. Damned frustrating, if you ask me. Sometimes I think I should just cash in the Aurelia rather than have it taunt me.

My not-so-satisfying solution has been to mess with less interesting cars on the side, like a 1800S Volvo, and a Scorpion project. The view from the 1800 coupe's driver's seat is remarkably similar to the view from behind the wheel of an Appia Sport - same curve to the instrument pod, same fender and hood lines, and with enough fiddling with the suspension and engine, including twin Webers, the lumbering Volvo can be made limber and light. But it will never be a Lancia. Nonetheless, I can throw it around with abandon, which I am no longer comfortable doing with my Aurelia. I try to ignore the Lancia insignias on the Scorpion and try to think of it as a generic mid-engined Eurocar from the 70s, which it is; once I dissociate it from Lancia I can enjoy messing with it. Neither of these cars are particularly common, and their respective on-line owners' groups speak of them as holy grails and lament the cost of ownership, parts, and service just as Aurelia owners do. Funny when you think about it.

So, what's the point? Maybe just a lament and a sentimental nostalgia for the pre-what's-my-car-worth television show days. And there is no end to this. Hell, last week I called around looking for a place to repair my 70s vintage Marantz receiver. Is there a such thing as an electronics repair shop anymore? Even in the NYC metro area? Nope. But there are super high-end audio restoration shops, one of which will service my Marantz for a flat $825. Quick, where's the link to that eBay auction for those 4,000 Euro Aurelia lights?

Happy new year to all.
John Feingold

[Geoff]

John -

Great stories. I've got a similar tale from Marvin Collins on the west coast that is slowly being pulled together. He too was in the middle of a great community that loved Lancias and the fact that you could access all that quality for not so much $.

BTW, does that Indianapolis motor swap story have any relationship to this one?

College Days (http://web.me.com/geoffreyg/Stories/College_Days.html)

Very best,

Geoff

[Geoff]

Further thoughts:
There is are some other aspects to the change in these cars - first, when we got them, be it in the 1960's or 1970's, they were just old cars. Neat old cars, but 10-20 years old is a lot different than 50. To put that in context, how many of us were driving 1925 cars in 1975?

Parts were not only seemingly more available (although I'm not sure its just as easy to get them from Cavalitto as it was from Tom S, who doled out parts depending on his affection for you....), but they were of better quality, typically factory originals. Heck, remember getting parts from Algar? Things just seemed to work easier then...

Also, dare I mention that I think our perspective has changed since then? While still affection rules for these lovely cars, its worth remembering that the 1970s-80s were a period of rather horrid new cars. Part of the interest in the older cars had to do with the fact that they were good, pure and simpler. Things just seemed better if you were willing to deal with a few quibbles here and there.

That's not the case these days: new cars are really rather remarkable - bulletproof, comfortable, fast, and quiet. And if money is an issue, go get a 5-10 year old one, they are still good. That's a big change from days of old. Heck, I'd argue that the past 5 years are a golden period in cars, with many really superb examples. BMW, Mini, Mercedes, Jag (alum chassis versions are really pretty cool), even Fiat 500s and Subarus have their charm. Yes, there isn't the variety we used to have, and odd and interesting solutions are less common, but then again, who spends time at the mechanics anymore with these new cars?

Traffic, allergies, desire for quiet driving all factor in too. The Aurelia goes out pretty much in good weather, and have to work around the bad traffic times, and disregard the possibility of damage. This past summer, I was stuck in traffic, and the SUV behind me hit the car. Remarkably, his bumper went over mine, and he just hit the license plate, and the holder bent forward, putting a small 1/4" paint chip behind it, practically invisible. What started as a curse turned into an odd moment of thanks and an adrenaline rush.

Electronic ignition, elec fuel pumps, and a few other solutions make driving practically without fear of breakdowns, but yes, its all a bit different. A friend once was noted that he was surprised his mediocre 3500 Maser cabrio was worth so much money: he was so used to being upside down in the car that he didn't know what to do now. He sold it a year later. Hard when all this money is being discussed.

[jellisfeingold]

No, the College Days story is unrelated. But these stories just illustrate that things like that happened and were possible then. The engine that went into the Spider came from the 4th Series car my brother totaled on ice in New Hampshire, and the swap occurred in CT.

I drove the Spider until around 1970, and put it away when the brake hydraulics gave out. Other things distracted me, like college, and the car then it sat in the garage while I half-heartedly collected repair bits and pieces, including a memorable visit to Harry Manning in Farnhan in Surrey. Eventually my father insisted that I get the car out of the garage, and it was sold for a song to the late Joe Formica, and later passed to an Italian owner whose name I forget who brought it home for restoration. A case of woulda, coulda, shoulda if there ever was one.

[Geoff]

woulda, coulda, shoulda = the 8C Alfa at Knauz c. 1980 for $10k, only needing a some engine block casting.

[jellisfeingold]

Woulda, coulda, shoulda is a slippery slope. I think we should nip it in the bud before this thread devolves into stories of the one that got away. My apologies in advance for possibly starting an avalanche.

[Parisien]

Guys as a newbie Aurelia B12 owner, needing complete restoration I take my hat off to the true Lancisti both on this forum and in the UK where I live.

I have emailed Geoff and several other members off this forum and the LMC forum to great effect and more to the point, benefited greatly from their knowledge and genuine enthusiasm, I am humbled by it all.

Indeed I bought several dozen back issues of the LMC magaizne and read Geoffs stories over and over, truly wonderful!!!

I took delivery of my B12 after two months, it had been on the road and stored several times due to the A******E (leaving a frustrating texting trail of 175 texts over 4 weeks!!!!) who took my money to bring it back to N Ireland from Portugal, but then ceased trading, so had to engage another guy to bring it the full way!

Will post up a few pics on a separate thread!

Thanks again guys.

P

[1,6 HF]

Geoff,

The "further thoughts" post is spot on, IMHO.

[Parisien]

I've always liked the Aurelia. Like many a Lancisiti, I'd like to own an Aurelia coupe someday. Circumstances lately have not been beneficial to this goal. While my personal stiuation has resulted in a career change and the need to put a nicely restored car further into the future, it seems all Aurelia's have risen dramatcially in price! Led of course by the Spider, then convertible, cars with competition history, nicely restored cars with special options, history, or equipment, and lately seemingly any B20 GT Coupe. I believe this has resulted from stock market dips wherein investors needed to find alternate investment vehicles as well as muscle cars leaving the heigth of popularity and price as gas reached $4 to $5 a gallon US. It seems this can't be the sole cause as the Aurelia's rise had already begun before these events all played out, so I can only assume the masses have become aware of Lancia's many innovations and what a good car the Aurelia is. Unfortunately this may mean such cars may remain at a higher price point.

Being a practical guy, this makes me wonder about the sedan as an alternate. Are B12's or any of the others still available? Do they have similar power or handling? Are their prices still more moderate? Where might I be able to find one?

Any information provided would be helpful. In the meantime I will enjoy my other Lancia's.

Thank you,
Dave Decker
Woodburn, OR. USA


Here ya go......

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C275022


P

[Parisien]

Another....

http://www.autoscout24.it/Details.aspx?id=201360865


P

[Geoff]

The B12 is a great point to get into Aurelias. If you are into a bit less refinement, more hassles, and a bit more primitive, the B10/21/22 is also neat, but the B12 is just so well refined. Its like Flaminia build quality with an Aurelia heart. They run significantly less than a B20, and can often be found in much better shape.

They are not necessarily common, but there are usually a few for sale in Europe, mostly Italy. Rare in the US. Like all Aurelias, buy for condition, as putting one of these back on its feet can be a lot of work. Once you have it right, it will stay right and be a very loyal and faithful car.

You may feel you are giving up some of the sporting heritage, and the neat space inside the B20, but the general build quality and usability of the B12, plus its current pricing at about 1/3 the price of a good B20 makes it pretty attractive. The onlh hitch is that you have to go find one in Italy, most likely. Feel free to PM if you get more interested, may have a lead for you.
Good luck.

Geoff

[CraigHelstrip]

http://www.oldandyoungtimer.co.za/Classic/14882/for-sale-lancia-aurelia-b12