uprating braking system

[andybeta]

Does anyone know of any braking modifications that have produced real increases in performance for the VX set up? It's a dual spilt circuit and the standard system even when functioning properly isn't that powerful.

Thinking of fitting larger wheels maybe 16" or 17" and thought that in doing so that some ventillated discs and better calipers - poss 4 pots could be accommodated inside. Thought about Fiat Coupe brakes but as yet haven't compared the practicality of actually seeing whether discs would go on hubs and whether caliper fits stub axle...........or could try Thema Turbo brakes which I gather would need some mods. Or purchase some new Tarox or Red Dot vented discs that would fit with calipers....ouch!

The engine is producing considerably more grunt then standard.

The standard 14" wheels are a non starter for accommodating uprated discs and calipers.

Any thoughts, especially from anyone who has a successful uprated set up would be greatly appreciated.

best wishes,

Andybeta

[Pope1]

Andy, no answers for you I'm afraid, only more questions. What is wrong with the standard VX brakes? Mine have always felt a bit soggy unlike the Beta coupe' I had 20 years ago. Of course it may just be my memory!

I've used Tarox pads in the past with standard discs with some reasonable results but that's been about it.

I've got some refurbished front calipers and stainless hoses to go on my VX when I get around to it and in the past it's had the rear calipers looked at and the master cylinder replaced. The car stops but the pedal feel is not great at all.

Why the move to larger wheels apart from looks? I agree the car looks a bit wimpy these days on the standard 14" rims but I'm thinking of keeping mine because larger wheels will mean great weight, possibly less acceleration, maybe even worse fuel consumption and less resistance to aquaplaning. Seems to me that the standard setup provides good grip and I'm not sure that bigger and wider will actually be better. Hate how small they look though.

Chris

[Hamish]

Working on the assumption that the standard calipers and the rest of the breaking system is in perfect order, you can ofcourse fit aftermarket brakes... the EBC "blackstuff" pads in combination with their discs do make a difference, but I sympathise with your frustrations over finding suitable conversions :roll:
I do know that Barry Waterhouse did an Integrale front caliper conversion on a VX coupe - it meant 15" wheels as you surmise and bespoke calipers carriers, but it's a conversion with distinct possibilities :D
I was warned off the Thema conversion, apparently it's only marginally better on a Beta than the standard set up.

It's not a question that the brakes aren't good, they are. Just dead, no feeling before you lock up or any real 'road' sensitivity.

[andybeta]

Looking for alternatives makes my heart heavy as the standard Lancia wheels I think look pretty good. The pedal feel is pretty dull despite replacing all discs, cheaply I might add, with standard Bendix discs a few years ago and putting on two new rear calipers and overhauling the fronts.
Perhaps the servo is the root cause of the lack of feel and bite? Not poor performance as such but just that is the braking system.....

I've been thinking about a decent set of wheels primarily to accommodate new brakes not because I don't like the old wheels. Mind you the larger the wheel the less tyre wall so profile is lower and the ride potentially harsher.

So maybe 16" or 17" are the max......7.5J x 17" with 205 or 215/40 x 17s as the max. A slightly higher diameter 606mm as opposed to the standard 596mm on 185/65 x 14" will alter gearing making it higher but would be more than compensated for by extra grunt. Mind you larger wheels mean more expensive lower profile tyres.......The HPE VX featured in AutoItalia had 215/40 x 17" tyres on 7.5J x 17" wheels!!! But don't know if spacers were used plus it was lowered so there must be enough space.........

Will have to spend a little more time considering.

thanks,

andybeta

[Pope1]

In my case, my car has been sitting for so long that I know that I have to change the brake fluid. The only other thing I'd say is that many moons ago when I lived in the UK, a previous Lancia failed its MOT because of a problem with the rear brakes. They felt fine, the fluid level appeared to be fine but the testing gismo said there was a problem which the guy at the garage diagnosed a leak. I thought he was talking complete rot but I had no choice. One new caliper later all was well.

I've noticed that my brake fluid level went down on the current car while it was sitting in the garage so I think there must be a leak somewhere on this one too. Only thing is that there is not a trace of brake fluid on the garage floor.

All that to say that it seems that you can have leaks that are difficult to detect which may contribute to the lack of pedal feel. In addition, when I took my engine out I discovered the linkage that runs right across the car in the case of our RHD cars. It is a Heath Robinson kind of thing and seems to have the potential to introduce some lack of feel at the pedal if not adjusted correctly. It may be worth checking that all is well in that department.

Back on the subject of the wheels, I have heard that, even if you size the tyres correctly, the difference in rotating mass at the end of the drive shafts can have a negative effect on acceleration. The diameter of the wheel and tyre may be the same but the overall weight is not (apparently). Final comment on that score relates to the guy who sorted out the bodywork on my car. Used to have a nice Honda Accord with 16" rims. Fitted 18s with wider tyres and reckoned that he would get more grip. Went round a corner at the same speed as usual (about 70) but the car went off the road that time due to a lack of grip. So I'm a little wary of just slapping something bigger on there and hoping for the best.

Chris

[andybeta]

Interesting thoughts Chris. A number of other VX owners also report deadness of feel to their systems. I have to say I got mine working fine but it still feels 'dead'. It's as well to change the fluid every 2 years as it does absorb moisture. And interesting comments on the rotating mass ideas and potentially compromising actual road holding. I guess one has to really try it to find out, obviously with an educated guess as to how it's going to turn out. Could be expensive as well as a bit dangerous!!! Or look for some second hand wheels.........

I saw the VX in featured in AutoItalia going around Goodwood a few years back. Unfortunately didn't get a chance to have a close look but it went very well and looked smart.

Thanks,

Andrew

[Hamish]

I wonder if you've touched on something there :?: It might be interesting find a smaller servo and try it out :idea: There must be something withing the Fiat/Lancia parts bin that would do the job :?:

I guess the next step is to consider a whole new system, possibly based on a bespoke or 'off the shelf' race/rally system.....
A lot (not all) Stratos Replicas use Betas as a base car, it's reasonable to assume they may have overcome the dead brake problem althought the Beta is considerably heavier in all its' guises :roll:

One thing that does make a difference (did on my VX HPE but never did it on Mario) is fit all new copper pipes and braded steel hoses everywhere, made an appreciable difference to 'feel' although ultimately the brakes were still 'lacking' in progression :roll:

[Vx gunmetal]

I too have the dead pedal feel. I have put it down to poor brake fluid as the car was sat for a year before I got it, and has since been sat whilst work on it is done for about 9 months. But detailed investigations have yet to commence.

On the wheel issue, I have gone 15" alloys which will be fitted with 195/55 tyres. these have the same rolling diameter as the stock 14". So should be no speedo or other issues. The wider tyre should of course supply more grip (and thus resistance) so economy will be less, however I don't think this should be noticeable.

If you wanted to go 16" alloys closest match on tyres would be 215/45 and 17" 205/40. It is considered not good practice to exceed the rolling diameter by more than 4%

Michael

[chrisc]

My betas are fairly weird with their brakes. My 85 has brakes that are dead sharp, massive amounts of feel and pull the car up really well (standard discs, pads + calipers), When my 84s braking system was working, it was pretty devoid of feel and the pedal always felt a bit spongey. That car had tarox discs + pads at the front and standard rears.

At the monte consortium day at the haynes museum I saw a car with thema calipers and uno turbo diesel discs, seemed to work when it was out on the track.

Both cars brakes were in good order with fresh fluid

[Vx gunmetal]

Correction. Diameter increase should not exceed 2.5%.

[andybeta]

Where do you draw your figures on limits of increasing overall wheel/tyre diameter from gunmetal? Obviously a massive increase in diameter may well be detrimental or even dangerous, but I can't see that 596 to 606mm would be. I'm fortunate to have a full Toyo tyre conversion table for fitting all tyres of any size with total diameters of wheels/tyres etc.

I think basically the VX system is over servo'd resulting in the dead feel. Perhaps the next stage is all copper pipes, etc and flushed with new fluid. If this doesn't work, a different servo.

Still there's always the hand brake to get one out of trouble.

Andybeta

[Vx gunmetal]

The 2.5% is a general rule of thumb used by some alloy and tyre retailers. You can fit whatever you like, go 18" if you wish. But the tyres you fit should give a similar diameter of the original. You may have to get the speedo recalibrated and you may need bodywork modifications if you go too large, which is not good. The figure you quote of going from 596 to 606 gives approx 1.85% increase which is, of course, within tolerance.

Michael

[Will]

I'll share my thoughts on brakes, some may disagree:

Beta brakes are adequate as a general rule, some inprovements you can make if pedal feel is poor are.....

1) Get rid of those swollen, spongy 25 year old rubber hoses. IMO this is the biggest culprit in a poor braking situation.

2) Purge the heck out of the system- I use a vacuum pump and pull close to a gallon of fluid through the Scorpion brake system when I bleed it.

3) Move to a pad with higher friction and heat range- you can get EBC Greenstuff pads for the front, you may have to modify them slightly for the rears.

4)For very high heat applications, i.e. track, it would be beneficial to go to vented rotors. Or if you live in the mountains. For regular driving and autocross, or a short duration sprint where trhere's not enough time for brake temps to climb very high, vented rotors will only add rotational mass, not improve braking aside from the fact that they may be larger in diameter than your old solid ones, which will help of course.

5) If you are willing to make your own brackets, there are a plethora of disc and caliper options that you could go with. People here have done Thema, Uno, Toyota MR2, and others. Go have a look at Jim Fierst's album in the photo sections.



I'm concerned about the earlier post where the fluid level was going down. You need to find that leak- it could be getting caught up by the car, say, in the carpet or by something that passes under the brake line, or it could be squeezing out of the caliper and getting flung out by the wheel under hard pressure only, but you need to find it. I had an inexplicable fluid loss and poor brakes, it took me months to find the fitting- a threaded adapter installed by the PO had cored the thread out of the caliper and was leaking, but the fluid was only escaping slowly and getting flung clean by the wheel, so the evidence was hard to spot- add to that, with the rear engine there is always some kind of oil back there around the rear wheels ;).

[rossocorsa]

on right hand drive fwd betas particularly those in infrequent use it is important to check the pedal connection to the mastercylinder if this seizes the brakes will still work with bad feel but the flexing of the metal has potentially fatal consequences. i know of one individual whose Trevi had this rod snap due to the constant flexing of the metal luckilly he only ran into his garage door!

[andybeta]

Crikey that doesn't sound good. I think go through the whole sytsem again fit decent hoses and poss fit EBC green pads.

Thanks for all contributions,

Andybeta

[Hamish]

Going over the brakes does make a lot of sense, especially with more grunt :wink:

In summary then:
Clean and rebuild calipers - fronts are a bugger to do but well worth it :wink:
Check brake compensator valve working correctly (pipes are prone to leak around here).
Replace rubber hoses with Goodrich or similar braided hoses 8)
Replace metal brake pipes with copper throughout.... nice :P
Check master cylinder - can be rebuilt.
Check (replace with smaller item :?: ) brake servo and all linkages (especially on RHD cars).
Fit quality new discs and pads....... I confess that I can't see beyond the kit offered by www.evocars.com of Brembo discs and Mintex pads - the mutts nuts in my book 8O

To be honest, seems that the above makes sense on all Betas regardless of power output - none are really less than 20 years old now :roll: and the brakes were never that 'dynamic' in the first place :evil:

[Will]

Hamish, you aren't advocating the use of COPPER for brake lines, are you?? I assume what you are talking about is a copper plated steel line?
I certainly wouldn't trust malleable copper tube with brake line pressures, but I guess to each thier own?
-Will
PS> Yes, I know burst on malleable copper would be around 175psi, but it'll start to stretch way before then.

[rossocorsa]

in the uk it is normal practice in classic cars to use copper brake lines have a look here for an example www.automec.co.uk

[Will]

Well, I'll be...and it looks like they are graded to some Brit standard that I don't recognise. I've never seen such a beast here, materials of choice on this side of the pond are chromated steel alloy (standard) or stainless (expensive) with flexible lines being high pressure rubber or stainless over teflon.
Learn something new once in a while, I guess today was my day! Thanks.
-Will

[badboyboogzy]

drb do a great set of slotted and crossed driled also a set called gold which are both these are the discs fit any of theses with ebc green upwards whith original calipiers or drb calipers and you will have supureb brakes i used cross drilled and ebc greens and now can go from 100kph to 0kph in bugger all

[wellingtonvx]

I'm replacing all my discs with Brembos (the old ones are shot), but what pads should I use?

I really like the sound of Mintex M1144 compound (Street and Track Performance), but it seems like I can't get this for a Beta.

The only Mintex pads a local shop can get are MDB1203 or MDB1087 which I think are standard a compound.

On the following Mintex site they list MDB1088 for a Volumex but it doesn't say what compound.
http://mintexcat.mintex.co.uk/mintexcat/selection.php

Also, where do I get Goodrich braided hoses that people talk about here? Are these the best or just one brand that fits Betas.

Thanks

Colin

[Hamish]

I'll have a look into pads for you - have an idea that Pagid are pretty good but the EBC pads are very good, even the standard ones are damn good at stopping a Beta VX at full 'chat'. :wink:
Lots of Stratos replicas run Beta 'parts' and some common ground may be found on pad compounds - I'll do some digging 8)

Goodrich hoses are available from a variety of sources such as the ones listed in the links pages, but also worth a try are www.needforspeed.co.uk . Goodrich hoses are factory 'custom' made sets of stainless hoses etc to replace the standard rubber pipes from brake pipe unions (be that copper or not :!:) to calipers - so for a Beta that's 6 pipes.
Always choose the TUV rated pipes, they have better fittings and are made to the rigorous German TUV regulations, they're worth the premium over standard.

[omicron]

I don't think anyone has mentioned brake fluid!

Use good quality brake fluid. DoT 4 at the absolute minimum, and if possible something that exceeds these specifications. Castrol make some racing brake fluids (one at about £ 40 a bottle), and a cheaper version at around £ 12 a bottle. This is good stuff. Silicone fluids can result in a spongy pedal and have a tendancy to froth more easily than normal brake fluid making it hard to bleed.

One has to tread slightly carefully when upgrading brakes. The tempation to fit larger calipers and things should be carefully considered. Lancia had a whole team of engineers and experts, whereas an individual doesn't.

Don't forget to consider the capabilities of the master cylinder. Fitting bigger calipers doesn't always work because they're now beyond the capabilities of the master cylinder and servo.

If you uprate the pads and fluid etc., you are retaining the tried and tested original design, so you can be pretty condident the resulting setup will be safe.

The brake system is the single most important aspect on a vehicle, you put your life and those of your passengers at risk each and every time you stamp on the middle pedal. You can't take any chances whatsoever.

[Hamish]

Andrew,
I hear what you're saying, but surely you have to concede that most - if not all - cars of that genre were built to a price and therefore not as good as they might have been.

I'm not saying corners were cut in the design/research but a distinct lack of thought went into the practicialities of the Beta system in everyday use- ie: Beta brakes are, even in fine fettle, marginal and do require very regular maintenance (on UK roads at least).

It really should go without saying that brake fluid should be a high quality DOT4 or 5, we've already touched on silicone fluids not being the best in a classic install.

We've already posted in the past that the first step should be a thorough overhaul of the braking system as a whole - modifications of a moreserious kind should only happen from there.

Anyway - a link for the EBC Lancia products page : http://www.ebcbrakes.com

[omicron]

If you read contemporary road tests and driving reports, the brakes are generally praised, even on late road tests. Lancias were always regarded as a drivers car, and from a company with a sporting heritage, I would hope that the design of the brakes were not

We have to remember that brake and tyre technology (and I guess road surface technology) has progressed steadily.

A brand new 2004 Renault Modus will stop from 60-0 in 2.8 seconds. I chose this because it was a typically average car and is featured in the current issue of Autocar I plan to read at lunchtime. Its slightly lighter than the Beta.

A 1984 VX road test chose 70-0 for their test and this was 3.6 seconds.
Not too bad for a heavier car, from a higher speed, one tested January 1984, the other October 2004

Out of interest a back copy of Autocar (5th October issue) did a road test of the new Porsche 911 Carrera S with steel brakes rather than the expensive ceramic discs. In the text of this article it is mentioned that the new 911 stops from 70mph in just 44 metres. The VX road test referred to earlier gave a 70-0 distance as well - 58metres. So the £ 65,000 2004 Porsche stops 14 metres short of the 1984 Beta VX, but does have 330mm drilled and ventilated discs all round and 8" wide front wheels and 11" wide rear wheels to help! The Porsche also stops from 60-0 in 2.9 seconds.

Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic...

I think we're all agreed that safety is paramount...

If you want to improve your brakes using Lancias basic design, then change pad material, fluid etc., to take advantage of improvements in materials rather than improvements in basic design.

If you want to use a more modern system, and are able to calculate the supply capabilities and the demand requirments of the various components, then an improvement can be made as well. If you do, keep a record of all the changes as it would help the next owner of the car...

Which everway, make sure your brakes are safe and will stop you whenever you need to.

[wellingtonvx]

Thanks for the info Hamish and Andrew.

Hamish, searching online I read one person's opinion that compared to Mintex pads EBC Greenstuff were rubbish, then I read someone complaining about Mintex M1144 squealing to much, so it only leads to my confusion. Did you use Mintex pads on Mario? I wanted a harder compound because I have experienced fade with the standard pads which is disconcerting after a lot of use.

Also the link page doesn't work, but I looked on the Need For Speed site, is the brand of brake lines Goodridge? That's all I can find on that site (in other posts they were called Goodrich).

What about the Tarox Strada fast road pads on Need For Speed? They make them for Betas.

Andrew, I had read not to use silicone brake fluid, so I will check out the Castrol if I can get it here.

As for altering the brakes, I wasn't aware that swapping the original discs for Brembos, rubber hoses to stainless and standard pads to fast road compound would cause a safety issue. Don't these manufacturers ensure that the replacements are safe? I won't be fitting them myself, so I assume the mechanic will have enough experience to do a proper job.

Colin

[omicron]

Colin

Swapping parts for ones which are basically the same, but made using better quality materials will not compromise safety at all (and one could argue would increase safety) assuming everything else in the system is in good working order and its fitted properly and bled properly.

Andrew

[wellingtonvx]

Thanks Andrew,

I agree that safety shouldn't be compromised when modifying brakes, also insurance could be invalid if the modifications weren't suitable for the car.

Should I get all calipers rebuilt?

The other day my left rear seized (have to use the handbrake on my drive), when I accelerated at first I didn't go forward. I thought what the hell the handbrake is off! After giving it a bit more acceleration I moved forward with a clunk. It's been making this sound for months, but it never seized before so I ignored it.

Colin

[omicron]

Insurance: tricky one. Its sensible to declare any modifications or deviations away from standard.

Insurance companies are always looking for an easy get-out clause.

I would investigate the linkages and make sure everything operates smoothly. Do you use your car regularly?

Andrew

[andybeta]

Ferrodo DS 2000s are supposed to be very good pads. about £90 for a front set though. Coming with the suggestion from a Fiat bravo application. Maybe there are some for the Beta?

Andy

[Pope1]

Just found this topic again. My goodness, you guys have been busy today.
Here's my 2 cents worth.

First, I tend to agree with Andrew. I've always thought that the Beta's brakes were better than average way back in the eighties. Maybe they're not up to modern standards and, yes, with the conversion to RHD they have that stupid linkage that I assume is not there in the LHD versions.

I agree that the key thing here is to check all the linkages and not to go swapping the calipers for non-standard ones without a lot of solid research to back it up. Swapping the discs, pads and hoses does seem to be a good idea but I believe in swapping both the front and rear discs instead of the fronts only, which many people seem to do.

If I had sticking calipers, I'd tend to go for an overhaul. Otherwise I would be tempted to check they are working OK and not mess with them unless necessary.

Pads are an interesting subject because I've been looking into that one in the past few days for my VW Golf. I changed to EBC greenstuff a couple of years ago because the standard VW pads were too dusty. They've been OK for me (nothing fantastic though) and have lived up to the promise of minimal dust. However, I saw comments from 3 other VW guys yesterday who said that they don't like EBCs and won't recommend them. Reasons given: they need to warm up first, performance is inconsistent and sometimes worryingly so, prone to fade at motorway speeds. I have also heard some people complain of excessive and inconsitent disc wear with them.

Pagid were highly rated but do produce black dust. The Ferrodo DS 2000s also got a positive mention today. I have used Tarox to good effect on a previous Lancia and may have some fitted to the current one, I'm no longer sure. I did try them on my Fiat Punto GT when it was around but quickly removed them because I got the impression that they were eating the discs. A lot of Golf people have used Mintex but the consensus seems to be that they are affordable rather than outstanding in their performance. Hawk pads seem to be highly rated by the US guys but I don't know whether they are available in the UK, Australia or New Zealand.

Chris

[Hamish]

Folks,
The EBC link in a previous post has been changed :wink: it worked before, honest :oops:
I liked the Mintex pads, they did the job and worked damn well in the much missed Mario I didn't have any issues with squealing, but that said a pal who has a MK2 Golf GTi went with Mintex and his brakes squeal like buggery 8O but we're having a look at them tomorrow as we think it could be discs, not pads, that are the problem.
EBC - I haven't tried the Greenstuff so can't comment, but the 'Blackstuff' (standard compound) pads I rate highly, their discs aren't too shabby either.
I know I've prattled on before about building up the brakes, but it is time and money well spent and a rebuilt system with reconditioned calipers does make an appreciable difference - you just have to keep any eye on regular maintenance of the system (and free off the bleed nipples every now and again :roll: ).
Be warned :!: Beta caliper repair kits can be tricky to find, more so the rears :arrow: last set I got was courtesy of our host when he popped over the pond for a visit a couple of years ago. Andrew had plenty of front kits available at www.omicron.uk.com and maybe some rears now Andrew :?:

[Grundo Farb]

Can I suggest the following link for anybody interested in uprating or changing brakes, it is from the 'Dunlop Targa' website which is a tarmac rally run in NZ typically with classic cars which people can't source new parts for. This gives a very good summary of what should be looked at and you don't have to do a heck of a lot really.


http://www.targa.co.nz/Forms/Form%20B2%20Brake%20Information.pdf

[wellingtonvx]

That info is taken from http://www.0800brakes.co.nz

They can supply Goodridge braided hoses that will pass a WOF (warrant of fitness). You can only fit approved braided hoses in NZ. I probably won't because of the cost $100 NZ per hose, so $600.

I'm trying to get Pagid RS 4-2 BLUE pads, but yet again the cost here would be $600, so I'm not sure yet. (the WOF will be $2000+ then!)

I will probably use the ELF XT3167 fluid as mentioned on that info, Castrol SRF is $145 a litre, so not cheap.

Found the following links useful

http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q=Buyers%27+Guide+-+Hi-Performance+Street+Brake+Pads
click on the link to www.autospeed.com (should be the first link in Google)

http://www.easytrack.co.uk/poll/poll_res.asp?poll_id=13

Colin

[SubGothius]

FWIW, I seem to recall that the factory rallyed Betas used a fairly stock braking system, no fancy drilled/slotted/vented rotors, nor special calipers nor any other such business, just a few of the more modest optimizations to the factory kit as some are discussing here.

IMHO, before you even consider undertaking extensive mods to the major components, first try getting your current stock kit fully up to snuff with fresh fluid, good quality pads apropos to your actual driving needs (no racing pads for street use nor vice-versa), fresh rubber hoses (or upgrade to braided-stainless jacketed hoses if you wish), calipers in sound working shape.

If all that's done and things still aren't ideal for your needs, then consider the trickier business of replacing the metal lines (in case of corrosion inside the pipes impairing proper fluid pressure dynamics). Only after having exhausted all those steps and still failing to achieve satisfaction should one even begin to entertain contemplation of major component replacements and custom fab work, IMHO.

[Fingers]

Back to this post again! I've finally fitted the goodrich hoses to my VX but the brake pedal travel seems to be a lot longer than I remember, anybody have any ideas why this happens. I might try bleeding them again this weekend. Failing that I dunno.

[Jim Keller]

Air in the lines maybe, that will surely cause it, but also, if you used the brake pedal to pump the brakes to bleed them, you may have popped a seal in the master cylinder, thats a common occurance as the seals get pushed past the normal zone and get into rust and/or dirt and are torn up, that will make the pedal go low as you will only have front or rear brakes working, depending on which seal gave up the ghost. I highly doubt new brake lines would have enough effect on the pedal travel to notice it, other than being less if anything, not more with the new stiffer lines.

[Fingers]

It could be a seal I guess, there's no air in the lines, the pedal is rock solid. I'm going to have another go tonight, but make sure the pistons are hard against the discs.