Finally got my first Lancia home last night

[Itsa Scorpion]

While it needs quite a bit of work, and has some "unique" options, I can't wait to get started on it!

This car has been in storage for 15+ years and is completely rust free, but does need seats, paint, a roof panel, and other maintenance work. Take a look at the carbs/manifold set up!

I'm not a big fan of NOX, so that will come out for sure and I'd like to reengineer the carbs a bit to make it a cleaner installation, but so far it seems like a pretty cool car to start with. It also has Koni's all around and just 40,000+ original miles!

[DJ]

Looks really nice, Mark.

That carb setup is certainly interesting. I wouldn't want to have to change the spark plugs on that thing. I'd want to get a regular DCOE manifold and move them over where they belong.

What are those wires for that are hanging out of the driver's side door?

Keep us posted on your progress.

Do I have the VIN and other info for the Registry? (I'm running behind on updates but hope to get things updated within a few days.)

[DJ]

FWIW, that actually looks like an Alquati DCNF intake manifold hiding down underneath all that stuff! If so, I'd suggest that you just find a set of DCNFs and bolt them on.

Even, if you decide to keep the DCOEs you should be able to easily sell the DCNF manifold for enough to buy a normal DCOE manifold for it.

[DJ]

I'm curious as to why the intake piping was built with the connectors between the runners. Would that have something to do with the NOS setup?

It also has dual fuel pressure regulators. A very strange setup, to be sure.

[Itsa Scorpion]

It's unique for sure. I'm guessing they were trying to balance the runners?

The execution could be better but the idea might not be bad. They're in much cleaner air than the standard DCOE set up and I wonder what the added runner length does to torque numbers? The current airbox/cleaner has to go though.....

I still have a lot to learn about these cars, but I also wonder about the distributor? Hasn't it been relocated too?

[DJ]

The execution could be better but the idea might not be bad. They're in much cleaner air than the standard DCOE set up.

Not sure how you figure that. They are currently right over the exhaust header which isn't the best place for carbs. In the normal position they would be drawing air that has just come through into the engine bay from the center tunnel. That's about as cool and clean as it gets inside the Scorpion/Montecarlo engine bay.


I still have a lot to learn about these cars, but I also wonder about the distributor? Hasn't it been relocated too?

Yes it has but I'd considering leaving that as is unless you want to go with a DIS or just want to convert back to stock. The standard setup is driven off a gear on the intake cam. I'd be interested in knowing how the drive is arranged on that one. It may have a Beta FI exhaust cam in there or one from something like a Delta HF Turbo which had a cam-end distributor on the intake side.

You may also find that it has some sort of aftermarket performance cams if you pop off the cam covers.

[Itsa Scorpion]

Good point, I forgot about the air tunnel...yep, got a lot to learn!

Guess if the dist is driven off the cam, it would not need the aux gear and shaft then? Wonder if it's been eliminated on this engine?

The block has been painted the same color as the car so it's been out. My guess is like yours, considering all the external stuff and painted block it probably does have some aftermarket stuff inside as well.

Any suggestions on what to look for on the cams to tell?

[DJ]

Guess if the dist is driven off the cam, it would not need the aux gear and shaft then? Wonder if it's been eliminated on this engine?

Aux shaft is still required as it also drives the oil pump. The PO may have eliminated the lobe that is there to drive a mechanical fuel pump, though.


Any suggestions on what to look for on the cams to tell?

If they are OEM cams you can clearly see that they are cast metal in between the lobes. If they are billet aftermarket cams they are clearly machined. Of course, they could also be reground OEM cams. In that case you'd need to compare lift and duration to a known stock cam. I've also had one set of reground cams that were also machined between the lobes to make them look like a billet cam so it's not always that clear-cut.

You could also remove the end covers and see if there is any stamping on the ends of the cams. This is where manufacturers mark their cams and the markings correlate to manufacturer and model/specs of the cam.

I'd also suggest that you check the pistons and see if there's any sort of dome on the top. All the carbs and cams in the world won't do you much good if it still has stock CR. Compression is what really brings these little engines alive.

[davidb]

D.J.: Look @ the passenger's door bolster. You'll see a surface
mount speaker. Ergo driver's side speaker w/wires too. Overall
this is likely THE weirdest Scorpion I've seen.

[DJ]

D.J.: Look @ the passenger's door bolster. You'll see a surface
mount speaker. Ergo driver's side speaker w/wires too. Overall
this is likely THE weirdest Scorpion I've seen.

Oooh. That IS odd. I saw that thing sitting there but it didn't click that it was a speaker.

[Itsa Scorpion]

"Weirdest" ...hey, don't be making fun of my new car now..... :-)

[DJ]

"Weirdest" ...hey, don't be making fun of my new car now..... :-)

Well, let's just say it quite uhhh..."unique". ;)

[davidb]

I know you were scratching your head over those engine pics so
the speaker wires didn't click. I would be absolutely flabbergasted
if that engine doesn't have replacement HC pistons given the other
considerable engine mods done. There's a ton of work & money
there. Man-o-man to figure all that out tho, yikes. Call me a con-
servative moron but I'd prefer to start from stock, build up from
there. I do like the color. 'Course I had two new Azzuro Portifino
Betas back when.

[DJ]

'Course I had two new Azzuro Portifino Betas back when.

David, you've used that term numerous times and I finally feel compelled to ask where you get it.

That color is #142 (#132 for Beta) and is called Azzurro Metallizzato in the UK and Italian literature and simply Metallic Blue in the North American literature.

[Itsa Scorpion]

Which manifold should I be looking for to convert the existing side draft 40s to the more accepted location?

It looks like pierce makes one, but there's probably others?

[DJ]

Pierce sells Mangoletsi manifolds but I'm not sure how available they are for the FIAT/Lancia TC nowadays.

You can also get a manifold from the Monte Hospital (http://www.montehospital.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=27_22&products_id=532).

Also, they do come available from individual sellers on eBay and other sites so keep your eyes peeled. I'd still suggest that you investigate what's underneath that "custom" piping and if it is indeed an Alquati manifold I'd seriously consider finding a set of DCNFs. They are readily available.

With the DCOEs there are other potential complicating factors like shifter and alternator interferences but there are also parts available to solve these things.

[davidb]

D.J.: paint color answer, off topic I know. "Portifino" is the light
blue color of the bay/sea in Italy near that city. Well before it got
horribly polluted. I know for a fact they called it that, in a U.S.A.
brochure, dunno? I'm certain I read it somewhere accurately long,
long, long ago. Metallico, whatever, works for me. It was a nice
color to my eyes. As long as the clear coat didn't craze like my 1ST
Beta did.

[1,6 HF]

Mark,

Congratulations; looks like a nice car. If David thinks this is the "weirdest" Scorpion he's ever seen, you may take that to mean that he hasn't seen many of them. We have one local one that's been made into a roadster--no top at all; it's got yours covered for oddity by a factor of 10.

I think you've been getting good advice about the carbs & manifold. Long runners do generally increase low-end torque, but yours may well defeat that general argument by having tight turns at the inlet ports. And I suspect that the "cross pipe" may simply be a brace rather than an actual cross-runner. In any case, I'm not sure the existing set-up is providing enough benefit to offset its "uniqueness". But, as DJ points out, the DCNF manifold is worth enough to pay for a better DCOE manifold. And the converse may also be true; the DCOEs are probably worth enough to pay/swap for DCNFs. So you've got options.

Good luck with it all.

[DJ]

D.J.: paint color answer, off topic I know. "Portifino" is the light
blue color of the bay/sea in Italy near that city. Well before it got
horribly polluted. I know for a fact they called it that, in a U.S.A.
brochure, dunno? I'm certain I read it somewhere accurately long,
long, long ago. Metallico, whatever, works for me. It was a nice
color to my eyes. As long as the clear coat didn't craze like my 1ST
Beta did.

It's just that I've never heard nor seen the Portofino term used anywhere except in your posts so I'm just curious. Perhaps pre-1976? That's as far back as my literature and information goes for the Beta line.

[Will]

Congratulations on your new purchase!

If you dig around you should find a THIRD FPR, since that's a wet system your car has and wet nozzles are usually sized for 2-3 pounds DYNAMIC (flowing) fuel pressure.

I'd be surprised if it has HC pistons with the NOS, but it does have dual carbs, so it's anybody's guess.

Cams are easy to verify visually or with a dial indicator. A stock cam has a nose that has a radius equivalaent to roughly a 1/4" diameter rod or drill bit, (1/8" radius), a 40/80 can will have a more blunt profile that looks like a 3/8" drill bit (3/16" radius).

Checking the duration with a dial indicator and mutiplying by two will give you the duration in degrees. Stock is roughly 125 (250 crank degrees) at just above base circle, aftermarket will be 150 (300 crank degrees) or more.

Last word of caution is the tank placement. You need to be really careful to have adequate headspace in the NOS tank or you can blow a burst disk, nitrous oxide is a liquid and it expands when warm- if there is too little headspace it can jack the pressure up until it ruptures the burst disk. See pics of my engine compartment in the "old photo albums" and you'll understand why I know this specific bit of info. Heating the aluminum tank isn't the greatest idea either, but a filled-to-the-brim tank is a big no-no. :)

Good luck with that car!

PS> check for an ignition retard, and check your base timing.

[davidb]

Okay, okay, okay already I apologize for "weirdest". D.J. employed
a preferable word: "unique". As for that blue color, my '78 Sedan &
'81 Coupe was that color. That was the appellation/suffix I read/saw
back when, I'm certain. Let's drop it. I'm pleased we have a new,
interesting example, Scorpion owner. Provides fodder for posts.

[Itsa Scorpion]

Thanks for the input! Hey, I was just kidding about being the "wierdest", no problem here!

On manifolds, I am no expert but it looks to me like the Alquati mainfold has some compromises in flow for packaging. My preference would probably be to keep the DCOEs and look for another mainfold.
I agree that the current setup is surely not the best arrangement.

I'll pull the intake off and check pistons when I get a chance. H/Cs would be a nice find.

Anyway, if anyone has a used DCOE manifold they want to get rid of or trade for a DCNF manifold, please let me know!!!

Thanks again!!

[Itsa Scorpion]

Got a few minutes to check the pistons and they have quite noticible domes, so I'm assuming they're H/C.

The cams look to be billet, with no typical cast texture between lobes like most OEM cams.

Hopefully I'll get some time and have it running this week!

[Will]

Got a few minutes to check the pistons and they have quite noticible domes, so I'm assuming they're H/C.

The cams look to be billet, with no typical cast texture between lobes like most OEM cams.

Hopefully I'll get some time and have it running this week!

Yep, if it has domes it's a HC piston sure enough.

As DJ mentioned, sometimes reground cams will have been machined down, this usually leaves significantly skinnier than stock shafts since the originals are so far out of balance/center as to be almost ludicrous.

There is another more subtle test I've found: test the electrical resistance on the base circle, but not directly opposite the lobe. The factory cams are nitrided, the nitriding process adds a black, non-conductive coating that remains non-conductive even when you can no longer visually see the black finish (kind of like anodizing). Most aftermarket, modern cams are induction hardened, which builds a deeper boundary layer but leaves the cam electrically conductive.

Since regrinding can/will remove the nitride layer, and reground cams could theoretically be hardened with either method (I guess) the above trick works better to determine the age/technology/hardening method than to differentiate between an OEM cam and aftermarket cams. But, the above bit of info may prove useful to you one day. For example, determining whether a crank has been nitrided or not, or whether the nitride layer has actually been worn off of a part (since it disappears visually well before it is actually worn away).

Normally, the shape of a non-stock cam is a dead giveaway, your application perhaps not because of the nitrous, typical nitrous move is to hold the exhaust closed late to capitalize on the increased cylinder pressures, so the duration could be very close to stock. But it sounds like your car (dual carbs, HC pistons) was set up as a N/A performance engine and the nitrous was an afterthought, so you most likely have something like 40/80's in there, either welded/reground or billet.

[Itsa Scorpion]

Thanks Will!

That's great info. I know next to nothing about Metallurgy so I definitely learned something new today!

Got some fresh gas in and the car started last night. After a few minutes of spitting and popping (but suprisingly no smoke) it settled into a very smooth idle with 50-55 psi oil pressure at idle. One of the carbs is dripping a bit of fuel and there is a noticeable mid-range hesitation, but all in all things are looking good so far. Probably nothing a good cleaning and set up won't fix.

Guess it would be wise to change the cam belt, seals and water pump before actually driving it.

[Will]

Thanks Will!

That's great info. I know next to nothing about Metallurgy so I definitely learned something new today!

Got some fresh gas in and the car started last night. After a few minutes of spitting and popping (but suprisingly no smoke) it settled into a very smooth idle with 50-55 psi oil pressure at idle. One of the carbs is dripping a bit of fuel and there is a noticeable mid-range hesitation, but all in all things are looking good so far. Probably nothing a good cleaning and set up won't fix.

Guess it would be wise to change the cam belt, seals and water pump before actually driving it.

AWESOME! congrats!

Seals and water pump, you'll know if you have a problem. Cam belt I'd change if it looked iffy or old at all, but I wouldn't go crazy and do it every year because modern polymeric/kevlar or polymeric/nylon belts last a lot longer than the original rubber/cotton type, and I don't think the original service schedule reflects that. If you have a newish Gates belt with fresh writing on it you're probably safe, but don't blame me if she lets go!

It's a standard automotive L section belt (3/8" pitch) , no need to order from an Italian car vendor and I would avoid that route for fear of getting a "NOS" or poor quality belt. There is another running thread on here about that subject FWIW.

Side note: the regualar common industrial drive belt in "L" (lightweight) section appears to fit visually but stay away from that, it's not technically correct as the automotive L pulleys have a very slightly different diametral pitch. This is no problem if you order from an auto supply place but if you go straight to Gates online, etc, then be advised you want AUTOMOTIVE L section..

[Itsa Scorpion]

I'm thinking it might be easier to go ahead and drop the engine out the bottom to do the belt/seals and any gaskets that look to be questionable. It would also make it a LOT easier to clean everything too.

Do you have any pointers on what to watch for or suggestion that might make it easier?

[Will]

My advice is: not worth the effort unless she's leaking!

My pointer is: make sure the MS carriers (prticularly the RMS) are pushed UP FLUSH TO THE BLOCK before you tighten them, else thay can locate too low and interfere with the oil pan. This is mostly due to manufacturing slop, if allowed to self-locate on the crank and tightened in that position they can make it impossible to seal the sump. I practically got to wrench-throwing stage once before figuring this out. :)