Brakes?

[OperaHawk]

I did my front brake work (fun to get the hands dirty again!) and had it taken over to my local mechanic (first time he's looked at Fenice work-wise) to put a new muffler on and also check my work. My pad replacement was good, but the calipers were still sticking and the rears needed work. He freed up the calipers, put new pads on the rear (WITHOUT getting them from Vick - cost more, sob), and things were fine - until I tried to get on the interstate, when the brakes started to stick again. I got to about 40 mph, and they opened up. Then they stuck a little later on.

What's up? They checked everything - is there something they're missing (or I'm missing)?

Besides this, Fenice's running well. And I PROMISE I won't be selling her in the future (unless something catastrophic happens).

Thanks in advance!

SBJ

[rossocorsa]

I think I'd bite the bullet and change the calliper piston seals that will probably bring it all back to life but the front callipers are a work of art typical Lancia style over engineering so it's not as easy as on ,for instance, a Fulvia

[Charley]

It sounds like you need to rebuild or replace the calipers if they are sticking.The rebuild kits are available at most of the regular vendors,but replacement calipers seem to be unavailable.You could try Fun Imported Toys and Autos (http://www.funimported.com/new_shopping.htm) they have the replacement calipers listed here (http://www.funimported.com/parts/index/brake_calipers.htm) if the listing is valid.You could try Bruce's (http://www.fiatparts.com/) or Obert (http://www.fiatplus.com/)also.Good luck !

[davidb]

Redundant advise: re-build all 4 calipers, replace all 6 [wheel-
well] brakes hoses, purge brake fluid [again], re-check sliders.
At this point your booster sounds okay. The rear compensator
is another issue/topic entirely. Irrelevant [almost] if you drive
alone w/an empty trunk. Concentrate on the brake re-do 1ST.

[Jim Keller]

Rear compensator? maybe, but usually the stick open, and the typical "brakes are stuck on Fiat" problem, collapsing brake hoses probably? If you need hoses, I higly recomend Need for Speed in the UK, I got a set of their stainless steel wraped brake hoses, cost was $141 with shipping whbne I bought them. You have to dremel or file the brake hose bracket just a tad, but other wise they install perfectly. Maybe even the master cylinder. There isn't too many things that make the brake system work, so it shouldn't be too hard to find the problem

Check your slides again, make sure he got all the rust wire brushed off brackets and slides, if he didn't , rust particals mixed with grease can jamb them up too

[Charley]

Rear compensator? maybe, but usually the stick open, and the typical "brakes are stuck on Fiat" problem, collapsing brake hoses probably? If you need hoses, I higly recomend Need for Speed in the UK, I got a set of their stainless steel wraped brake hoses, cost was $141 with shipping whbne I bought them. You have to dremel or file the brake hose bracket just a tad, but other wise they install perfectly. Maybe even the master cylinder. There isn't too many things that make the brake system work, so it shouldn't be too hard to find the problem

Check your slides again, make sure he got all the rust wire brushed off brackets and slides, if he didn't , rust particals mixed with grease can jamb them up too

Jim
I too bought the Black Diamond SS Brake hoses for my '75 Coupe but ran into a little problem. I had to source adapters to fit the hoses to the original brake tubing because the original flair nuts were 1.25 thread pich on the flair nuts.the hoses had a 1.0 thread (see photo) (http://lancisti.net/forum/album.php?albumid=57) .I know I could have installed new nuts on the tubing but that opens another can of worms removing the lines and making new bubble flairs,etc. I don't know if the later Betas used a 1.0 thread pitch on the nuts.

[davidb]

Ah-ha, he-he, I knew you'd chime in Jim. I agree w/the sliders
or calipers. I had to spend hours sanding my sliders down w/
plumber's cloth [aluminium oxide] & a bastard file sometimes
to get the rust off. Re: that compensator. Supposedly it's ad-
justable via the clamps on the rear anti-sway bar w/proper
rear loading. Ever tried it? Interesting design in the sense w/
more rear weight, the rod held by the "U" clamps on the anti-
sway bar will flex down changing the compensator valving:
more pressure to the rear calipers. But then there's that "swing"
bar w/rubber bushings involved in the compensation process.
Those might get stuck. Ahhhh, good old Betas, nothing simple.

[davidb]

Re: hoses. I vote for rubber ones, Vick's, Obert, I.A.P. whoever.
They fit, they're inexpensive & will last for years. By the time
those rubber hydraulic brake hoses perish it's caliper time too.
In the interim you're doing rotors & pads . . .

[Charley]

I replaced the compensator on my Coupe and replaced the bushings on the linkages to the sway bar.It is not that bad. (Photo) (http://lancisti.net/forum/album.php?albumid=57&pictureid=466) To adjust,you have to loosen the bolts which attach the compensator body to it's mounting bracket with the suspension "unladen" with an empty fuel tank and the spare removed and with the wheels on the ground.Then you rotate the body of the compensator counter clockwise until the end of the linkage just touches the compensator's piston.

[len_newstrum]

<snip> Then you rotate the body of the compensator counter clockwise until the end of the linkage just touches the compensator's piston.
I agree, adjusting the compensator is no big job. It is very important to do it if you lower your car from US to Italian specs! Obviously the car has to be raised, supported on its tires, and level.

One question, that I posted earlier, but to which there was no reply:

Should the linkage "just touch the compensator" or should there be a gap?

I ask because the factory manual says to set the gap to what is given in the spec sheet--and I don't have the spec sheet! Haynes, as usual, gives no real answer. Maybe it doesn't matter, but you wouldn't know until you were in a panic braking situation; which would be a little late.

Len

[Charley]

I agree, adjusting the compensator is no big job. It is very important to do it if you lower your car from US to Italian specs! Obviously the car has to be raised, supported on its tires, and level.

One question, that I posted earlier, but to which there was no reply:

Should the linkage "just touch the compensator" or should there be a gap?

I ask because the factory manual says to set the gap to what is given in the spec sheet--and I don't have the spec sheet! Haynes, as usual, gives no real answer. Maybe it doesn't matter, but you wouldn't know until you were in a panic braking situation; which would be a little late.

Len

I adjusted mine following the procedure in the Haynes manual...(condensed) "Rotate the compensator then turn it back until the plunger (compensator piston) contacts the torsion bar end (linkage).Do not place any load on the torsion bar,the compensator plunger must just rest against the end of the rod".
I have had no problems with bleeding the system or in the car's braking action adjusting the compensator in this way.

[len_newstrum]

I adjusted mine following the procedure in the Haynes manual...(condensed) "Rotate the compensator then turn it back until the plunger (compensator piston) contacts the torsion bar end (linkage).Do not place any load on the torsion bar,the compensator plunger must just rest against the end of the rod".
I have had no problems with bleeding the system or in the car's braking action adjusting the compensator in this way.
That's what I ended up doing, too. Still, I wonder why the Lancia engineers called for some specific gap.

I wouldn't expect that you would be able perceive any difference in normal braking action or bleeding. The function of the compensator is to keep the rear end from breaking loose too early when braking hard under different weight distribution conditions. It is a matter of safety and I would prefer to have it working exactly as designed.

Len

[Charley]

Still, I wonder why the Lancia engineers called for some specific gap.


Len

Yes Len,I too have wondered how and why those Lancia eggheads come up with some of the unreal measurements and specs for things. For instance I remember a measurement of something like 290.5 mm to be taken at the rear struts for loading the rear suspension when replacing rear suspension components. .5 mm??? I couldn't even see 1/2 mm ! :scratch:

[Jim Keller]

But WAIT! There's MORE!

I was studying the brake system in the factory manual the other day and think I have it figured out, at least if what I am reading and seeing is correct! ha ha, the rear compensator shuts down pressure at the rear brakes as the butt goes up, but that in turn increases the braking pressure at the front too as the two systems are connected thru a small piston in the front caliper working off the rear brake hydraulics, (that's the second set of brake lines on the front), so when the pressure of your foot on the pedal is prevented from going to the rear by the compensator, it has to go to the front!

They way the system is made, if you lose the rear brakes, such as if a line rusted or blew out or the master cylinder seal went, you still have front brakes, 80% stopping, now, with most cars, if a front line blows out, all you have are rear brakes, 20% stopping power, but with the system in the Beta, if you blow your front line, you still have brakes at all four corners due to the way the system works with the small piston in the front caliper working off the rear brake system!, cool hu?......I though so