How long is your dipstick?

[DJ]

There's been an ongoing discussion between a few of us Scorpion owners about transmission dipsticks. Some folks have dipsticks that fit correctly but do not indicate correctly when the tranny is filled with the specified amount of gear oil.

Both my cars have a correct dipstick but I also have an NOS FIAT stick that fits perfectly but has different graduations. Hence, I've decided to run a poll to see just how prevalent this situation is and I'd like input from Monte owners, as well. I have several questions.

1. The 1976 Scorpion specification in the owners manual is for 0.44 gallons (1.76 quarts) of lube. What does the 1977 owners manual specify?

2. What do the S1 and S2 Monte owner's manuals specify for capacity?

3. What are the measurements of the graduations on YOUR dipstick taken from the flat metal area where the dipstick rests on the tranny case when inserted fully? Please include car model, year, and whether the stick indicates correctly when the tranny is filled with the recommended amount of fluid for your car.

Thanks,

[Will]

I have an original scorpion unit, US spec (car is a '76).
Naturally, markings read "Min" and "Max", I would assume they do not on the I-car version.
Here are the dims:
110.4 mm to "Max"
116.6mm to "Min"
129mm to tip.
I suspect one of your "other" dipsticks might have come from another application entirely, which one I have no idea,but FIAT X-1/9 might be a likely culprit.

[Jon]

The dip stick in my S1 Montecarlo 1978 has the following dimensions:-

Max 90mm
Min 100mm
Total Length 130mm

The Manual states it holds 2.45 litres (0.64 US Gal) But I am as yet to verify this.

[Allen Lofland]

OK WHAT"S UP not my dipstick Mine measures 90 and 100 and 2 qts of fluid doese NOT bring it up to the minumum
Sounds like I got a 78 Monty Soooo lets hear more form the Euro guys, did they upgrade the level in 78 for some reason ?????

[Jon]

Allen,

Our Engines are 2.0 litres over here while yours are 1.8 litres maybe that makes a difference

Jon

[Allen Lofland]

Jon: How would a 1800 be different in the trannie departmenr from a 2 liter.. Since I have upgraded to a 2 liter engine , this interests me greatly. Are ther other Monty's out there that would enlighten us as to what their trannies hold please. We could all be driving aroud the states with under lubed gears :( Thanks

[Jon]

Sorry, Dont know much about how the scorp varies. I just assumed as it origianlly had a smaller engine the gear box might be a different unit all together or that the gear ratios might be different thus having a greater or smaller effective volume on inside the housing

Jon

[Will]

Allen:
It's not under lubrication you have to worry about, rather the other way 'round.
With either level, your gears should be into the oil. If your oil level is too high, then under extreme conditions (and I doubt you spend a lot of time in the 8K and up rev band) your gear oil can froth up. This will probably unseat or possibly pop out your dip stick entirely, provided your sealing o-ring is doing its job.
If you go drive like a madman and find your dipstick keeps popping out, try going with a little less lube- in theory anyway. I've only managed to make mine leak at 4K and 80 MPH for long hauls, and that's just on account of my having a bad o-ring.
Has anybody got a spare o-ring? I got a set of like, 1000 o-rings, and they had the right primary diameter, but the secondary diameter (thickness) was too small.
:(
-Will

[Jon]

Well I finally got around to changing my transmission oil and I can Verify that it does indeed hold 2.45 litres. I put in roughly two and a half litre bottles of oil and it brought the level up to the Max mark on the dipstick. I also changed my oil for a slightly lower W value and now the gear change is perfect even when cold.

However, I also changed my engine oil and the max mark on the dipstick was reached with just about 5 litres (I also changed the filter) but in the hand book a figure of around 6 litres is stated. How long is your engine oil dipstick.

Regards

Jon

[Wallace]

Depends rather how long the filler tube is .. . years ago DJ kindly sent me a photo and the length it protrudes into the sump as measured from the bottom of the engine block .. but then you have to drop the sump to measure this .. .

If it is too-oo low you'll notice the oil light will momenarily flick on if going round a HARD corner (been there, seen it done it etc etc). . but this isn't best practice !!

[Will]

Wallace:
We aren't discussing the ENGINE oil dip stick, but rather the gearbox one.
The engine oil dipstick varies beween the 2L and 1.8L FIAT motors, and the corresponding beta motors, due to the different sump depths and the slant of the beta blocks.
Swapping the upper tubes with engine swaps makes this even more difficult. the best way I know of to determine the correct level is to drain and fill to capactity of the motor's spec book, then re-mark the dipstick.
I use a fine sandpaper or scotch-brite pad on my sticks, which lets me see the oil level better. [/url]

[Wallace]

Oopps !

I think the divide between the differential and the main gearbox is such that it's possible to fill the diff bit up WITHOUT all of it going into the gearbox part if that makes sense. Dunno. I've the remains of a gearbox in the scrap obx - I'll have a look.

Probably not so important as engine levels though - as long as there'as enough so that the gears dip into it and splash it all over the internals, a bit over , a bit under wouldn't make much difference. Not like a engine where if you uncover the oil pick up you're going to hit problems VERY quickly (seconds or so).

A bit over and it will probably weep a bit out of the breather - and possibly the shaft seals. But if they're in good shape, it shouldn't.

As usual - my two penneth worth.

[A1.6HPE]

I went to La Bella Lancia (A1.6 HPE) and checked the oil level and dipstick. A1.6 HPE still has the factory oil in it and the level is about 10mm above the MAX line! Dipstick has the same dimensions as the Montecarlo one (130mm from tip to shoulder of rubber bung, 111mm from MAX to shoulder, 117 from MIN to shoulder). Next stop was the handbooks – Montecarlo (S2) and all FWD variants have the same capacity 1.8 litres/0.47 US Gals and specify draining from both plugs but filling only via the dipstick hole.

[DJ]

The engine oil dipstick varies beween the 2L and 1.8L FIAT motors, and the corresponding beta motors, due to the different sump depths and the slant of the beta blocks.

It's only been 4 years since I first created this post so I figured I'd review it because I wanted to add some recent experience to it.

I know that Will specifically said FIAT motors here but I wanted to add some info here because this is in the Scorpion/Montecarlo forum and I don't want anyone to get a wrong idea.

The Scorpion (1.8 litre) and Montecarlo (2 litre) dipstick lengths and markings are identical. I've looked into this a good bit and have examples of both that I've obtained. The 2 liter block is indeed a bit taller so one would naturally think they'd need a longer dipstick. However, the difference is made up cleverly by the design of the mount for the dipstick tube. It is held at the top by the alternator adjuster bracket and sits at a somewhat different (lower) angle on the 2 liter than it does on the 1.8 liter. The tube slides down a bit further into the gland nut on the block on the 2 liter and makes up for the difference in height.

[Will]

Now you have ME confused, DJ- because if it sits lower into the block, then it is not at the same place relative to the crank. (because the difference in 2L and 1.8 blocks is at the TOP of the block, not the bottom! Are you saving the oil level of the 1.8L and 2L vary vs crank center?

[DJ]

Montecarlo (S2) and all FWD variants have the same capacity 1.8 litres/0.47 US Gals and specify draining from both plugs but filling only via the dipstick hole.

Very odd specs, Leo. Would you mind re-checking them? Also, where exactly did they come from? I ask because here are the specs from the owner's manuals that I have.

1976 Scorpion - 0.44 gallon
1976 Beta Coupe (North American) - 0.64 gallon
1977 Beta Coupe (NA) - 0.64 gallon
1977 Beta Sedan (NA) - 0.64 gallon
S2 Montecarlo (Italia) - 2.45 litres (0.65 gallon)

I've been looking into this further now that my car is again driveable and I believe that the Scorpion manual contains an error with regard to the gearbox oil capacity specification.

The one thing I've always been unhappy with was the noise that my gearbox made. It has always been louder than any other Scorpion or Beta that I've owned or driven. The gearbox has also always been notchy going into first gear on downshift.

In reviewing these specs, I believe that I've been driving the car with too little oil in it. And I have to take issue with Will's comment earlier in this post speculating that the lower oil levels would be fine. I believe this was the primary reason for the noise from my gearbox as it is MUCH quieter AND shifts much nicer when filled with the amount of oil specified in the Beta and Montecarlo manuals.

I had even replaced my original dipstick with another that gave the correct indication with only 0.44 gallon of oil. (See attached photo.) The replacement stick and another NOS stick I have (Lancia part number 82350896) both measure 110 mm and 117 to the "Max" and "Min" marks respectively. The original Scorpion stick I have measures 90 mm to "Max" and has no "Min" marking. With approximately 0.64 gallon of oil, the level indicates slightly above the "Max" mark and I attribute that to my lack of precision in filling.

As a result of all this, I believe that the specification in the Scorpion manual was a typo.

[DJ]

Now you have ME confused, DJ- because if it sits lower into the block, then it is not at the same place relative to the crank. (because the difference in 2L and 1.8 blocks is at the TOP of the block, not the bottom! Are you saving the oil level of the 1.8L and 2L vary vs crank center?

Perhaps I stated that badly. Because the position of the top of the dipstick tube is dictated by the angle of the alternator bracket, the dipstick is set to the same spot on both the 1.8 and the 2.0. If you compare the angle of the bracket between the head and the alternator on the 2 engines, you'll see that the 2 liter has a slightly steeper angle because of the taller block.

[Will]

I believe that I've been driving the car with too little oil in it. And I have to take issue with Will's comment earlier in this post speculating that the lower oil levels would be fine. I believe this was the primary reason for the noise from my gearbox as it is MUCH quieter AND shifts much nicer when filled with the amount of oil specified in the Beta and Montecarlo manuals.



With all due respect, DJ, please note that what I actually wrote was that the lower level was not a problem i.e. immediate concern while OVER lubrication WAS. It's self-evident that ideally one would want the "correct" level, but if that is not known then IMO you are better with the lower level. I do not feel this is merely speculation since it has happened to me several times until I managed to sort it out, that the dipstick lifted out due to excessive pressure and proceeded to slowly empty the contents of the gearbox out of the dipstick hole. I have posted a lot of stuff and while it's admittedly not *all* correct, I also feel that I've been accused of "speculating" many times (usually by one of a couple of people) in instances where I have specifically had a problem, tried to evaluate and think through the problem, diagnosed and/or rectified the problem and am trying to share the end result with other folks who might have the same problem somewhere down the road. And while it's quite possible that the gearbox oil never gets viscous enough and the old seal cold enough in California to blow out the dip stick, when I do post something precautionary like that I think that the front radius rod brackets and chassis connections need to be checked because they appear to be a weak point, and several people jump in and say that's bullshit because they are driving their cars and haven't had the front suspension come apart, it pisses me off because I can look at my car and see it happening, I feel like saying WTF dude I am trying to save your a$$, why don't you get that?!

Don't get me wrong, DJ- I'm not looking to make an "issue" out of the lousy gearbox oil level. All I'm trying to do is share that in my personal e-x-p-e-r-i-e-n-c-e under a limited set of conditions (old seal, etc) that overfilling and driving results in the gearbox throwing oil out of the dipstick hole until there is no oil left that can come out of the hole- and this level is now surely underlubricated vs. 10mm or whatever it is in the variants of the dipsticks.

I'm not suggesting that if you know what box and stick you are dealing with and everything is OEM and as-correct that you should necessarily deliberately underfill the box. Unfortunately, a lot of people aren't really sure what they have, and it's not unusual to find various X, beta, and even 124 parts substituted for odd bits on Scorpions as I'm sure you've BTDT many times before, as have I. I can pull an engine dipstick out of a box in my garage and have no idea if it came from a 1.8 or 2L, FIAT or Lancia, or volumex engine, partly because I'm sloppy with record keeping, and partly because most of the FIAT parts here were previosly owned by someone who might have tried to substitute anything remotely similar. IMO it doesn't help that some Scorpions carry FIAT badging in the engine bay while others carry Lancia, since one guy could try to use a 124 dipstick and the other guy could try to use a Beta's (now THAT'S speculation) :)

Hope it's all good in Snow-Country. :)

[Will]

Perhaps I stated that badly. Because the position of the top of the dipstick tube is dictated by the angle of the alternator bracket, the dipstick is set to the same spot on both the 1.8 and the 2.0. If you compare the angle of the bracket between the head and the alternator on the 2 engines, you'll see that the 2 liter has a slightly steeper angle because of the taller block.

I'm trying to follow this but I can't, I'm thinking if the tube is the same length from where it exits the block to the dipstick seat, what does the angle have to do with it? I think I would need to actually see this to figure out what you're talking about- and the only ones I've got here are set up for alternator on the exhaust side / dipstick coming out between the timing gears so that's not not an option. I will kind of file what you wrote in my head with a post-it note and try to observe at some point in the future though- thanks.

[davidb]

Gearbox/transaxle dipstick depth I do not know. This much I do:
they have seperate chambers. When I got my Scorp. 3 months
ago I pulled the rear plug, lotsa dirty fluid. Then later I found
another further forward plug covered by oil & road nasties.
When I pulled that plug more dirty fluid came out. I flushed
both chambers, both plugs out w/Vicks GL-1. The car remains
on jackstands. What fluid level is proper/required I have clue zero.
Me-thinks both plugs need be pulled, each chamber re-filled thru
the dipstick hole. Not much help huh ?

[1,6 HF]

The one thing I've always been unhappy with was the noise that my gearbox made. It has always been louder than any other Scorpion or Beta that I've owned or driven. The gearbox has also always been notchy going into first gear on downshift.

In reviewing these specs, I believe that I've been driving the car with too little oil in it. And I have to take issue with Will's comment earlier in this post speculating that the lower oil levels would be fine. I believe this was the primary reason for the noise from my gearbox as it is MUCH quieter AND shifts much nicer when filled with the amount of oil specified in the Beta and Montecarlo manuals.

DJ,

Did I read on another thread that you're using engine oil in your gearbox? If so, why? It's possible that you've been running not only too little oil, but the wrong type, IMO.

[DJ]

DJ,

Did I read on another thread that you're using engine oil in your gearbox? If so, why? It's possible that you've been running not only too little oil, but the wrong type, IMO.

Not at all, Ed. The Lancia owners manual specifies either SAE 85 W 90 gear oil, SAE 90 Gear Oil (GL-1), or straight SAE 40 or 50 motor oil. The weight rating system is different between motor oil and gear oil and a 40 weight motor is essentially the same weight as a 80/90 weight gear oil.

Same on the FIAT Spider and many of that crowd use motor oil as well. Most of them seem to really like Castrol 20W50.

I am absolutely convinced that the specification listed in the Scorpion manual is simply an error because I can't find that number in any other Beta or Montecarlo manual and having the higher volume makes a huge difference. It's essentially a 30% difference in volume (3/4 liter) between the two specs.

Now that I've located a cheap and steady supply of GL-1 I will be switching back to using it soon. When I first tried it I didn't like it quite as much as the motor oil but I think that may been due to using the lower (I believe incorrect) volume. We'll see as soon as we get some warmer weather again.

[DJ]

With all due respect, DJ, please note that what I actually wrote was that the lower level was not a problem i.e. immediate concern while OVER lubrication WAS. ...

Will, I wasn't trying to accuse you of "speculating" on anything. Sorry if you took it that way. I just read your post as meaning that you thought it was better to have the lower level of oil as specified in the Scorpion manual. I am stating that I believe it's an error and too low a level to adequately lubricate the gearbox.

That was really the entire original purpose of this thread because there are definitely a couple of different specs and different dipsticks out there. I've come to believe that the information in the Scorpion owner's manual represents a dangerously low level of oil for the gearbox.

[Will]

Well, now that you have plugged up the holes that aren't supposed to be there, you IMO need to go out and take a good run well into the triple digits and take a good look at the dipstick seal, but first make sure it seals tight. On MY car, and I'm not saying this is necessarily true on all of them, filling above the dipstick mark created potentially dibilitating problems. "Normally", this is would go unnoticed but when I drive to the lake I drive my car FLAT OUT when I get upstate, so somewhere between 85MPH (indicated) for local driving and 120+ (indicated) for touring, it seems the oil at the higher level foams, gases, and/or the FD box vibrates enough (or combination of the three) that the seal disengages. The danger is that it settles nearly back into place afterwards, leaving only a little oily evdence. Now, the oil level is low- how low, I don't know, but the dipstick will test DRY. I thought I was losing it through my speedo drive seal and went to a lot of work to seal up the speedo drive- because like most people, I have made plenty of mistakes and found myself pretty much in the dark with regards to some problems with the Scorpion. I know somewtimes I sound like a pushy know-it-all, maybe even most of the time. And you are free to disagree on the oil level, I'm just trying to make you aware of the potential, non-obvious consequence that may occur if you decide to run more lube than stated in the manual. The type of lube may make a difference too, I used to use 95W gear oil because I already had it for my trucks, now I use MTL. The shifting problems with my car all originate outside the gearbox, so it would be foolish of me to comment on the relatively subtle difference between MTL and 95W.
Best of luck.

[DJ]

And you are free to disagree on the oil level, I'm just trying to make you aware of the potential, non-obvious consequence that may occur if you decide to run more lube than stated in the manual.

I understand what you're saying and I think that too much oil could certainly create problems. But I don't see how the amount of oil specificed in the Montecarlo or Beta manuals could be "too much".

I just believe that the specification in the Scorpion manual is an error because every other manual for other Lancia models with the exact same transmission specifies almost a liter more oil than the Scoepion manual. That fact, combined with my experience with gearbox noise and shifting leads me to conclude that one should use the amount of oil specified in the Montecarlo and Betas manuals.

[1,6 HF]

Not at all, Ed. The Lancia owners manual specifies either SAE 85 W 90 gear oil, SAE 90 Gear Oil (GL-1), or straight SAE 40 or 50 motor oil. The weight rating system is different between motor oil and gear oil and a 40 weight motor is essentially the same weight as a 80/90 weight gear oil.

Same on the FIAT Spider and many of that crowd use motor oil as well. Most of them seem to really like Castrol 20W50.

I am absolutely convinced that the specification listed in the Scorpion manual is simply an error because I can't find that number in any other Beta or Montecarlo manual and having the higher volume makes a huge difference. It's essentially a 30% difference in volume (3/4 liter) between the two specs.

Now that I've located a cheap and steady supply of GL-1 I will be switching back to using it soon. When I first tried it I didn't like it quite as much as the motor oil but I think that may been due to using the lower (I believe incorrect) volume. We'll see as soon as we get some warmer weather again.

This is as much a question as a response, but I'm guessing that both motor oil and gear oil specifications have changed quite a bit in the 30 years since those manuals were written. I wonder if the different additives in current motor oil and gear oil make them less interchangeable than they used to be.

[Timo04]

This is as much a question as a response, but I'm guessing that both motor oil and gear oil specifications have changed quite a bit in the 30 years since those manuals were written. I wonder if the different additives in current motor oil and gear oil make them less interchangeable than they used to be.

Ed,

This is a great question. In one of my other vintage brand-X car's (a '70 BMW 2002 sold last April) gearbox GL-1 gear oil was also specified in the factory manual. On the vintage BMW on-line forums there has been quite a bit of discussion with regards to the "yellow metal" of syncros used in vintage gearboxes being harmed by the modern additives in the gear oil available today, particularly the synthetic type of gear oil. I'm not sure if this has any validity or if it is one of those urban myths.

I also remember that a chemical engineer once posted that he had been using standard, straight 40wt engine oil as a substitute for GL-1 gear oil for over 20 years in his vintage BMW gearbox without any issue. I used straight 40wt oil in the old BMW gearbox for at least 5 years and it was little notchy when cold (pretty much all vintage BMW's are) but after it warmed up it shifted smoothly and always ran quiet. Straight 40wt motor oil is supposed to equal GL-1 spec gear oil. Of course straight 50wt oil can also be used however mpg may suffer a little, not a big deal.

DJ

What in your opinion what is the correct capacity of gear oil that should be used in the Scorpion? In other words what is the exact euro-spec capacity for the Monte transaxle? This is interesting as I may have been running with a low level as well.

Will,

I'm sure you already know about this fix but am posting it for the benefit of others, your post helped me to remember this. I had a leaky speedo cable fitting in on my Scorpion last year and I removed the cable fitting from the transaxle and learned that it was simply a bad O-ring the was causing the gear oil to leak. I promptly replaced the O-ring and all the leaks went away (at least for now :)). One of the easiest repairs that I ever performed on the car. I wish all leaks were this easy to fix!

Take care and happy holdays to all!

[1,6 HF]

Ed,

This is a great question. In one of my other vintage brand-X car's (a '70 BMW 2002 sold last April) gearbox GL-1 gear oil was also specified in the factory manual. On the vintage BMW on-line forums there has been quite a bit of discussion with regards to the "yellow metal" of syncros used in vintage gearboxes being harmed by the modern additives in the gear oil available today, particularly the synthetic type of gear oil. I'm not sure if this has any validity or if it is one of those urban myths.

I also remember that a chemical engineer once posted that he had been using standard, straight 40wt engine oil as a substitute for GL-1 gear oil for over 20 years in his vintage BMW gearbox without any issue. I used straight 40wt oil in the old BMW gearbox for at least 5 years and it was little notchy when cold (pretty much all vintage BMW's are) but after it warmed up it shifted smoothly and always ran quiet. Straight 40wt motor oil is supposed to equal GL-1 spec gear oil. Of course straight 50wt oil can also be used however mpg may suffer a little, not a big deal.

Tim,

Very interesting. But I was actually thinking just the opposite--that modern additives had improved both motor oils and gear oils, but that they now had very different types of additives that made them less interchangeable. Most modern motor oils, for example, have some detergent additives.

Personally, I think I'll stick with dedicated gear oils. I've been using Red Line ShockProof (non-syn) gear oil in my Fulvia without any issues whatsoever. But as far as synthetic gear oils are concerned, Red Line (to take one example) does not recommend their lighter weight synthetics for gearboxes with synchros; apparently the lightweight synthetic gear oils are too slippery for some synchros to mesh properly.

[Timo04]

But as far as synthetic gear oils are concerned, Red Line (to take one example) does not recommend their lighter weight synthetics for gearboxes with synchros; apparently the lightweight synthetic gear oils are too slippery for some synchros to mesh properly.

Hi Ed,

I believe this to be correct and I will digress here from Lancia cars. For example on the Alfa transaxle cars (the GTV-6 & Milano) some owners claim that the use of synthetic gear oil, like the Red-Line brand, is actually too slippery for the "older style" synchros. In other words the synthetic gear oil does it's job too well for the these old transaxles and eventually smooth shifting will decline as will the synchro life. Once upon a time I purchased a used 2.5L Alfa Milano with just about 60K original miles on the clock, a nice clean car for daily driving. However the transaxle had that dreadful 2nd gear crunch that is so common to these cars. I followed the advice of a long time Alfista/Italian car friend; "get all the old sh*t out of that box, flush it out a couple of times within 1k miles with Shell Spirax and you will see the difference, as you drive it the shifting will improve." He was spot on correct and the shifting greatly improved over time once all the synthetic oil was out of the system. The 2nd gear crunch did not go completely away but the shifting was much smoother than when I first purchased the car.

Shell Spirax gear oil is one of brands recommended by the Alfa Romeo manuals for the transaxle cars which by the way is the very same gear oil that my father had used (the above friend reminded me of this fact) for many years and many years ago in his Aurelia transaxles. Shell Spirax was and I believe still is just about the only mineral based, "dino" gear oil that is readily available here in the states that works well in the old Alfa transaxle cars. The knock against the Spirax is poor shifting in colder climates, not an issue in warmer climates like here in Ca. I wonder how works in cold winters of Milano/Torino/Northern Italy?

Other users claim otherwise, many claim they have run Red-Line synthetic for many miles/years in their transaxle cars without any issues. Not sure if it is Red-Line Manual Transmission Lube (MTL) or what type of synthetic it is. I also hear from some that Ford Motorsports makes an expensive synthetic gear oil that is available over the counter at most Ford dealers and that works well in colder climates for the transaxle cars too. I believe Shell Spirax would offer no benefit in a Fulvia or Beta transaxle.

Happy holidays!

[DJ]

DJ

What in your opinion what is the correct capacity of gear oil that should be used in the Scorpion? In other words what is the exact euro-spec capacity for the Monte transaxle? This is interesting as I may have been running with a low level as well.

I would think that the Italian version of the owner's manual should be as close to a "Bible" on this as anything. My copy of an Italian Montecarlo owner's manual says to use 2.45 liters of oil in the gearbox. This is almost exactly the same as the 0.64 gallon (2.42 liters) specified in all the North American Beta owner's manuals.

See my post here (http://lancisti.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1926&highlight=gl-1) for a good source of GL-1.

[macster]

Just thought I'd add my info from my '77 Scorpion owners manual - says .44 gal. Tranny dipstick has max. mark @ 90mm and min @ 100mm. Haven't ever drained it but planning to do that this weekend and see how much comes out. Think I'll try the 40wt motor oil and see if it shifts any smoother - has 90wt gear lube in it now - not sure if its GL-1 or something else.


Mac