'76 Scorpion Sells for $10213.00 on Ebay!

[Allan Sieben]

All I can say is...WOW!

I know it was an original, unmolested, stock Scorpion with 35K miles on it, but I thought we were in a resession?! This is good news for average value I think, as this particular car was not a "pristine" example by concours measure. But it appeared to be in excellent condition just from the photos provided. Perhaps I'm speaking out of turn, and certainly it is not my intention to rattle the cage or offend, but you have to admit; you just don't see these cars bringing in top dollar like that!

If I'm way off course here, please educate me. One thing I do know: To determine the value on a collectable, rare car; it is worth what a prospective buyer is willing to pay for it. I have to admit also, that the silver exterior with the red interior, is one of the best factory colour schemes the Italians came up with. Just MY opinion! Looks great on the Lancia. Congrats to whoever bought it! Allan

[Allen Lofland]

Agree with what you said, however I would be curious if the high bidder follows thru with the sale. I hope this is a result of Scorpion inflation :)
I love the silver/red combination also .

[1,6 HF]

It's certainly not bad news for values, but it's always dangerous to read it as anything other than what it is--one single auction (and eBay at that--I'd second Allen Lofland's caution about the buyer actually following through).

BTW, auctions don't exactly conform to the "willing buyer" principle. Auction prices are not determined by what the successful buyer is willing to pay; instead, they're determined by what the underbidder (the highest losing bidder) is willing to pay. The buyer was almost certainly willing to pay more than $10213 (maybe a lot more, maybe very little more), but he ended up paying one bid increment more than the point at which the competition dropped out.

[DJ]

Even better, that's like $13,072.00 today in Canadian bucks! :cheers:

Although, as previously mentioned, it's only one sale, overall I think it's a great sign.

Since the Scorpion I bought new so many years ago was silver I've always been a big fan of Scorpions in that color. But the red interior just isn't my cup o' tea. Mine had blue interior and I always thought it was a beautiful combo. Everyone who ever saw it thought it looked great.

[Allan Sieben]

Thanks for the comments. I'd like to point out the typo in DJ's thread. Color is spelled: C O L O U R! LOL

-Some good ole' Canadian humor from this dyed in the wool Canuck!

[DJ]

Thanks for the comments. I'd like to point out the typo in DJ's thread. Color is spelled: C O L O U R! LOL

Only if you're using the wrong dictionary! ;)

For a people who have so many, ummmm, "issues" with the French, I find it odd that the British are so adamant to hang on to the Norman (Anglo-French) forms of so many of their words. Truth is, the American "...or" version is derived from much earlier Latin forms.

When I worked in the UK a couple years back I used to derive great and twisted pleasure from showing the Scots and Englishmen I worked with that their own Oxford English Dictionary ("The Definitive Record of the English Language") indicated that forms of common words with a "Z" (zed) were preferred over those with an "S" (e.g. realize, organize, etc.). None of them believed me until I made them look it up in the dictionaries on their own desks. 8)

[Allan Sieben]

Ah! The French! Oui.

[DJ]

Ah! The French! Oui.

LOL! I know. You Canucks still can't seem to make up your mind...

[Allan Sieben]

DJ. I re-read your thread. It amazes me how people see colour (color) combinations so different. You say that the red interior is not your cup-o-tea. I once had a white Dodge Caravan (company vehicle) that had a red interior. I HATED IT! I found the red velour to be too aggresive. Yet as my affection grew for the Italian automobile, I discovered that many of the manufacturers' were doing the silver/red thing. I soon became an admirer of that colour combination. Maseratis, Ferarris, all the great marques were adapting that colour combo into their repertoire.

As far as a blue interior is concerned. I've always loved the blue interior of the 80-81 Fiat X1/9. Stunning!!!

90167574_8.jpg (http://lancisti.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=646&stc=1&d=1236748923)

[Allan Sieben]

LOL! I know. You Canucks still can't seem to make up your mind...
But you Americans LOVE us. Right?

[DJ]

But you Americans LOVE us. Right?

We absolutely do! Except for those Canadian weather exports this time of year.

Besides, if it weren't for Canada, Minnesotans would just talk like the rest of us here. :)

[1,6 HF]

DJ. I re-read your thread. It amazes me how people see colour (color) combinations so different. You say that the red interior is not your cup-o-tea. I once had a white Dodge Caravan (company vehicle) that had a red interior. I HATED IT! I found the red velour to be too aggresive. Yet as my affection grew for the Italian automobile, I discovered that many of the manufacturers' were doing the silver/red thing. I soon became an admirer of that colour combination. Maseratis, Ferarris, all the great marques were adapting that colour combo into their repertoire...

OK. Hang on a second here. There's a universe of difference between a refrigerator on wheels with red velour, and a silver GT with red leather (or even vinyl). It's possible to appreciate the latter while regarding the former as an aesthetic crime against humanity.

[John O]

OK. Hang on a second here. There's a universe of difference between a refrigerator on wheels with red velour, and a silver GT with red leather (or even vinyl). It's possible to appreciate the latter while regarding the former as an aesthetic crime against humanity.

I can agree with you to a point. One is simply "gross" while the other is "over-the top". It's also fine to admire while standing outside the car, but the first Scorpion I looked at to buy had a red interior and I felt like I was sitting inside some giant animal's gutted body cavity. The blue interior that some Scorps came with is an easy-on-the-eyes shade. I think if Lancia had done the same with their red, spec'd it more in a maroon range than freshly-slaughtered-antilope-red, I'd probably like it more. From a driver's perspective, I feel that once the driving begins, the interior (like the rest of the car's technology) should become "transparent to the user" and get out of the way of the driving experience. I think RED would distract too much.

Also, all manufacturers should to get the message: dashboads need to be BLACK irrespective of the color of the rest of the interior. I've been in too many cars recently where light or medium colored dashboards reflect into a good portion of the front windscreen like an accidental heads-up display. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

John O.

[John O]

If I'm way off course here, please educate me. One thing I do know: To determine the value on a collectable, rare car; it is worth what a prospective buyer is willing to pay for it.

I don't think you're way off on the "buyer is willing to pay for it". That's absolutely right. Where I think we go off the rails in the US is that with Scorpions, as with many entry level enthusiast vehicles, "rare" almost never equals desirable. Many of us bought our I-cars simply because we could see a high fun-to-dollar ratio where most normal people saw something which was far to much hassle too keep on the road. Said simply, most (not all) got them because they were cheap.

It's interesting to me that first generation Miatas are now becoming like Fiat Spiders once were, dirt cheap sports cars for poor college kids. I'm also not trying to rattle anyone's cage either, but as interesting as it is to see Scorpions "valued higher", you have to ask yourself, "would you pay that much for a Scorpion?" I'd say "no", and I have my own reasons for that choice, YET I'm getting closer to that number every day in what I've already spent on it. My experience over 20 years with cheap I-cars has taught me it's smarter to spend incrementally on a car I know inside-and-out, repairs done right BY ME, than pay too much for PO problems and mysteries hidden under pretty paint. On the other-hand ...it's better to buy the most car you can afford and it's far cheaper to buy someone else's restored car than to do it yourself.

John O.

[Will]

I think you have to actually own a red-interiored scorpion to realize how it truly wears on the old retinas. I bought mine with a red interior, the PO's idea was to take a silver scrapper and pull the red interior and put it into a RED car! Boy, that red-on-red was tough to deal with! Going to buckskin improved the interior 100 percent. I have learned to hate the red interior so much if I bought a silver/red car it would be silver/black in short order. The silver/red looks good when you see it from the outside and the red is an accent, drive around in there for a while and it has all the appeal of a rolling whorehouse. YMMV, then again, if you owned one, you might find the red interior and a pleasant aesthetic becoming rapidly divergent.

[Allan Sieben]

I think you have to actually own a red-interiored scorpion to realize how it truly wears on the old retinas. I bought mine with a red interior, the PO's idea was to take a silver scrapper and pull the red interior and put it into a RED car! Boy, that red-on-red was tough to deal with! Going to buckskin improved the interior 100 percent. I have learned to hate the red interior so much if I bought a silver/red car it would be silver/black in short order. The silver/red looks good when you see it from the outside and the red is an accent, drive around in there for a while and it has all the appeal of a rolling whorehouse. YMMV, then again, if you owned one, you might find the red interior and a pleasant aesthetic becoming rapidly divergent.

Hmm. Perhaps I should feel fortunate that I have a black interior. Although not original, it still was refitted properly and looks like it belongs there. Was there a black interior offering on the North American Scorpions?
I am a stickler for original unmolested cars. When I say molested, I mean "changed". I appreciate the upgrades and mods that people do to their cars. It's just that my dad drilled it into me when I was a lad, that original is better!. So I bought a red car (originally gold), with a replacement black interior. Go figure!8)
All in all I've done my best to bring her back to original specs. The PO had the colour change done properly. Nothing worse than having your door sills not match the rest of the car!
I am now trying to get my car to pass Air Care. In the Greater Vancouver area we have to get our collector cars to pass just once. Then when I finally get the collector plates, it doesn't have to go through Air Care for as long as I own the car.
P1010013.JPG (http://lancisti.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=647&stc=1&d=1236822055)

[HF Stinger]

As a result of having pieces from several cars and different colors, I toned down my blue interior a bit by adding some black.

The seats were redone with black bolsters and blue fabric inserts, and the rest of the interior was a blue/black combo as well. In a white car I loved it...

Not the best pic, but it's all I can do for now.

[DJ]

Was there a black interior offering on the North American Scorpions?

Nope.

[QUOTE]I am now trying to get my car to pass Air Care. In the Greater Vancouver area we have to get our collector cars to pass just once. Then when I finally get the collector plates, it doesn't have to go through Air Care for as long as I own the car.

Exactly like Colorado. But the registration has to be renewed every 5 years for a nominal fee.

Wow. That sure is some shiny black trim, Allan. My new rear trim panel is being covered in a low-reflection black that actually looks more like a really dark gray. I would have preferred to do it in the original tan but couldn't find a close enough match. The closest was Oxen Brown like davidb is using but I'm not doing the whole interior. There are already 4 different shades of tan in the original interior between the dash, the door cards and armrests, the carpet, and the seats, and I didn't want to add a fifth shade. Instead, I opted to use the black to blend in with the dark gray trim around the rear windows and A pillars. Tomorrow we'll see how well that choice pans out.

[DJ]

I am a stickler for original unmolested cars. When I say molested, I mean "changed".

So is all the original smog equipment and stock exhaust still on your car?

I was like that when I first got Lucia but I got over that fairly quickly after a bit of driving that poor little 86 HP engine at the elevations here in the Rockies.

I remember when I had my new Scorpion back in the late 70s. After about a year I finally ripped out the catalytic converter and it was like I had been driving it all that time with a potato stuck in the tailpipe. The improvement was dramatic and just that one change really made the engine sing.

[John O]

As a result of having pieces from several cars and different colors, I toned down my blue interior a bit by adding some black. The seats were redone with black bolsters and blue fabric inserts, and the rest of the interior was a blue/black combo as well. In a white car I loved it... Not the best pic, but it's all I can do for now.

Ya know Sean, your picture has really been sticking with me. I'd wondered how a two-tone black/blue interior might look and I think I really like the combination. I was thinking of the reverse of what you have, with black on the dash cap and side bolsters and blue below on the center and shifter console, glove box, door cards, with a mix on the seats similar to what you describe. Any more pictures?

John O.

[HF Stinger]

I john I do have a few more. These were all taken back in the day when a decent digital camera was VGA quality. I kick myself for at least not borrowing a better camera to document my restoration better.

I will try and get some of the project pics uploaded here soon. I took alot of pics, but they weren't of great quality.

[Andrew S]

Back to the original thread subject; there was a very nice S2 Monte sold here in the UK just recently for a few pounds short of £10,000. And that was in a classic car auction. That makes the eBay Scorp look good value!

On the subject of originality, it counts for nothing with me. Taken absolutely literally, S2 Montes are not original because they are an altered S1. Sure, I'm not stupid, I know the point is they are original insomuch as that's how they left the factory but! They are not true to the original car. I see no difference in buying a car 2nd hand that has been "altered" or "improved" by the PO. The only issue is has the work been carried out to a good enough standard or not. You are buying a car that has someone elses ideas of what is good, tasteful or indeed "improved" but take away their skills from the equation and I maintain that is exactly the same as buying a S2. Some Italian guy(s) decided they could improve on the S1 and we got the S2. Just because they worked for Lancia, Fiat or Pininfarina didn't necessarily make them more qualified than any competent mechanic to decide what was the best way to improve the S1 Monte/Scorpion. In fact, actually owning a Monte for many years; living with it's design flaws; pondering for waaaay longer than the Italians did about how to make the car "work" and then carrying out the necessary improvements to, say, brakes and engine power possibly makes the majority of us far more qualified than the original modifiers anyway! I'd say without a doubt the likes of Will and Tom McG are more qualified than most of the original design team...
Yes, it's always "nice", "interesting" etc. to see a factory original car but that's as far as it goes for me. I bought it, I'll do what the f*** I like to it because I'm doing it for me, no-one else, and certainly not with an eye towards the next owner because when I'm carrying out the modifications my mindset at that time is there ain't gonna be a "next owner"! That's the way I look at it.

And anyway, with a point aimed at you unfortunate Americans who got the car in this way- what's so great about a Monte on stilts, with pointless "pop-up" headlights, a strangled engine and an exhaust system with something blocking it...?

Just a few provocative thoughts to throw into the discussion pot...

Andrew.

[1,6 HF]

...On the subject of originality, it counts for nothing with me. Taken absolutely literally, S2 Montes are not original because they are an altered S1. Sure, I'm not stupid, I know the point is they are original insomuch as that's how they left the factory but! They are not true to the original car. I see no difference in buying a car 2nd hand that has been "altered" or "improved" by the PO. The only issue is has the work been carried out to a good enough standard or not. You are buying a car that has someone elses ideas of what is good, tasteful or indeed "improved" but take away their skills from the equation and I maintain that is exactly the same as buying a S2. Some Italian guy(s) decided they could improve on the S1 and we got the S2. Just because they worked for Lancia, Fiat or Pininfarina didn't necessarily make them more qualified than any competent mechanic to decide what was the best way to improve the S1 Monte/Scorpion. ...

I couldn't possibly disagree more with your idea of "originality'.

You may well not care about maintaining your car as it left the factory; that's your prerogative. You may well believe that an S2 is not as "pure" as an S1, though I believe that 'purity' arguments can get pretty silly in themselves.

And you may choose to believe that your (or a previous owner's) 'improvements' are better than production alterations made by those engineering buffoons who worked for Lancia or Pininfarina. It's certainly true that a long-term owner has the time to address whatever 'improvements' he wishes, unconstrained by production deadlines, 30 year-old regulations, or marketing considerations, all with the luxury of 30 year's worth of technical advancements. In terms of performance, who could argue that Bosch L-Jetronic (let alone a single Weber DATRA) is as good as today's fully-programmable FI?

But the idea that a factory-stock S2 isn't "original" simply because it's an S2 doesn't take the word 'original' "absolutely literally". Rather it reduces the word to the point of utter meaninglessness. It's a bit like saying that my Fulvia Fanalone can't be original because it isn't an all-steel 1,2 Coupé.

Taken to its absurdly literal conclusion, the S1 Montecarlo isn't 'original' in the sense you want to use the term, because it's not an Abarth 030 rebadged as a Fiat X1/20.

[Will]

Hahahaha...I can't speak for Tom but I'm just another idiot trying to make it the way I want it- usually unsuccessfully! :D

I think an S2 is a factory car, hence original- would you say the fourth or fifth (or sixth) generation Corvettes or Mustangs are not "original" cars?

Does a new model have to be designed from the floorpan up including an all-new chassis to be original?

My personal opinion is the S2 is an improved S1, but the Scorpion with its cross-eyed headlights, carrying-handle bumpers and 4x4 ride height is just kind of a retarded-looking caricature of a Monte. I would not say it is not an "original" factory car but my personal view is that is was so woefully compromised from the original design intent to meet regulations that it's like somebody handed Rembrandt a box of crayons and a legal pad and told him he had to recreate The Night Watch.

I think the Monte (just MO) is one of the very sexiest cars ever made, along with the 512BB, the 308, and the GT40. The difference is, the other cars had at least twice the number of cylinders and at least half again the displacement of the Monte, the only real serious shortcoming of the car in my opinion (well OK, brakes).

[DJ]

I like to it because I'm doing it for me, no-one else, and certainly not with an eye towards the next owner because when I'm carrying out the modifications my mindset at that time is there ain't gonna be a "next owner"! That's the way I look at it.

Pretty much exactly my view, really. Except that if I had an older Lancia I'd be more inclined to keep it as original as possible.


And anyway, with a point aimed at you unfortunate Americans who got the car in this way- what's so great about a Monte on stilts, with pointless "pop-up" headlights, a strangled engine and an exhaust system with something blocking it...?

LOL! Why do you think all of these things have been "corrected" on most of the Scorpions still around today, Andrew? :rolleyes:

Regarding, the pop-up headlights, they were hardly pointless. I'm not saying I prefer them but they were simply necessary to meet the headlamp height requirement in our laws at the time. This is the exact same reason that all UK-spec Fulvias have headlamps with "eyebrows" instead of as they were originally designed. Without the pop-ups, the slightly taller ride height, the smogged engine, and the bumpers, we would never had seen this marvelous little car in North America. That would have a great loss, to be sure.

[1,6 HF]

I think it’s a real shame to sacrifice a rare version in the name of ‘improvement’, and I general prefer period-correct modifications, but don’t get me wrong; I usually don’t have an issue with an owner wanting to remake a car in his own image. Do whatever you think improves it--I’d never argue against any Scorpion owner who felt their car needed more power or better brakes than the standard US version. And I have no doubt that many of those ‘improvements’ are just that–real improvements. Just don’t call your improved version ‘original’. And please don’t argue that it’s the same thing as factory model changes.

Oh, and only the S2/S3 UK Fulvias had the 'eyebrows'.

[DJ]

Oh, and only the S2/S3 UK Fulvias had the 'eyebrows'.

More good info for the old "knowledgebase". I'm certainly no font of Fulvia knowledge (or any other sort of knowledge, really). Were there actually true UK-spec S1 cars or were they just brought in from elsewhere?

[Andrew S]

LOL! Why do you think all of these things have been "corrected" on most of the Scorpions still around today, Andrew? :rolleyes:

My point (well, one of 'em) EXACTLY!!!! Imagine if you had to live with them forever because the Originality Police said you had to because that's the way it was designed! It WASN'T the way it was designed, dammit! It was the way it was compromised! This is applicable to a great many things on a great many cars of course, but the Scorpion especially has a lot of compromises.

Will, the fourth, fifth or sixth generation Mustangs and Corvettes I can't comment on with any accuracy because I know nothing about American cars, but I would imagine they were merely using the name of the "original". Certainly, the original Corvette looks nothing like the Sharknose Corvette, I know that much. The S1 and S2 Montecarlos look, to the average Joe, identical. One is purely a "modified" version of the other. And Indeed, the factory modifications that were being applied to the S2 were already being carried out by the owners of S1s at that time because they so desperately needed it to brake better! So- is the S1 with improved brakes fitted by some guy in a lockup garage in a Manchester back street worth less than an "original" S2? Of course not! But it is to the Originality Police! Because it wasn't "factory fitted"!!! Stupid.

Also, I'm picking up on a little bit of sarcasm too... I don't, for one minute, "choose to believe that my "improvements" are better than production alterations made by those engineering buffoons who worked for Lancia or Pininfarina...". They're not "buffoons", they created our wonderful car! But the bit about reducing the word "original" to one of "utter meaninglessness...", hmmm, I kind of think that anyway. Y'see, at what point is a car "original" anyway? The original sketch? The original clay mockup? The original prototype? The original preproduction cars? The first dozen originals off the production line that were altered and improved with desperate haste before the public realized they had original design flaws...? And when one is embarking on an "original" minded restoration, which of the above does one aspire to? It's all bollocks. "It's all original, right down to the shite brakes, hopeless exhaust, strangled engine, plastic interior, too small wheels and headlights designed to meet the legislation imposed on the automotive world by some guy in a suit who thought it was a good idea and then admitted it really wasn't but by that time it was too late... Oh, and I spent years looking for some original roof straps just so I can watch them disintegrate again because that's what they were meant to do obviously. Musta been, they're original.."

So, I stand by my original (LOL) statement: It's interesting to see a factory original but that's as far as it goes for me. I have no desire to tolerate design flaws, certainly no desire to actually re-create them!!! That's just silly masochism.

As I said, admittedly provocative thoughts but that's the attraction of our hobby, indeed perhaps the main trait of all humanity- we're all different!

And no-one was impressed with £10,000 for a Monte...;-)

Andrew.

[DJ]

And no-one was impressed with £10,000 for a Monte...;-)

Not really. That's only $14,000 dollars today. Allen Lofland's Scorpion recently went for significantly more than that. And it was even the wrong color! :D trollllling...

[1,6 HF]

More good info for the old "knowledgebase". I'm certainly no font of Fulvia knowledge (or any other sort of knowledge, really). Were there actually true UK-spec S1 cars or were they just brought in from elsewhere?

Depends, I suppose on what you mean by "true UK-spec". There were RHD Fulvias made for every model variant (except maybe the S3 Safari--don't know about that one). But they were just RHD versions with no differences, except for the 'eyebrows' on the S2/S3 Coupés.


My point (well, one of 'em) EXACTLY!!!! Imagine if you had to live with them forever because the Originality Police said you had to because that's the way it was designed! It WASN'T the way it was designed, dammit! It was the way it was compromised! This is applicable to a great many things on a great many cars of course, but the Scorpion especially has a lot of compromises.

Will, the fourth, fifth or sixth generation Mustangs and Corvettes I can't comment on with any accuracy because I know nothing about American cars, but I would imagine they were merely using the name of the "original". Certainly, the original Corvette looks nothing like the Sharknose Corvette, I know that much. The S1 and S2 Montecarlos look, to the average Joe, identical. One is purely a "modified" version of the other. And Indeed, the factory modifications that were being applied to the S2 were already being carried out by the owners of S1s at that time because they so desperately needed it to brake better! So- is the S1 with improved brakes fitted by some guy in a lockup garage in a Manchester back street worth less than an "original" S2? Of course not! But it is to the Originality Police! Because it wasn't "factory fitted"!!! Stupid...

First, there is no "Originality Police"--you can do whatever you want to your car, as long as you accept the fact that your improvements may not impress a prospective buyer. But don't tell us that you couldn't care less about originality--that you make mods as though you were going to keep the car forever, and then in the same breath complain about the fact that the market values original cars more. You either care or you don't.

More importantly, though, the claim that the first production iteration of a car is "original" (or is it the first prototype? or is it the first show car?) and that all subsequent versions aren't original is simply perverse.

No production car is the clone of its first prototype; all cars are compromised to get them into production, and all cars are improved to get them into production. Although there are always exceptions, most prototypes are beautiful crap--badly put together and not the least bit sorted for drivability or ergonomics. But they're the "original" expression of the idea, so everything else is just "modified"? And therefore there's no point in distinguishing between modification by individual owners and modification by the factory? Rubbish.

So you're entirely free not to give a damn about originality. And you're entirely free to believe that your modified version is better than the original--in some ways it may well be. But you're not free to redefine the word "original" to suit your own opinions.

[Andrew S]

...you're not free to redefine the word "original" to suit your own opinions.

Ed, I wouldn't dream of attempting such a thing, nor do I believe my posts have suggested that I would wish to. I have merely tried to point out that originality isn't all it's cracked up to be, and that one shouldn't be afraid to alter and improve. After all, if we all thought like that then a car would never evolve into a Series 2, would it...? And as for "there is no Originality Police...", you're having a laugh surely!? Ever met a Concours judge? Rip you apart because you used the wrong kind of washers on your headlight adjusters...! Those guys are anal.

And DJ, "not really" impressed with £10,000 for a Monte? That's significantly more than the thread starter. Impressed me. I can't imagine what it would've made if the owner hadn't fitted the leather... ;-)

Voiced provocative thoughts always lead to interesting responses... It's all good.

Andrew.

[DJ]

[QUOTE=Andrew S;18351And DJ, "not really" impressed with £10,000 for a Monte? That's significantly more than the thread starter.[/QUOTE]

OK, so yeah, that's a fine price, too. A little too provocative for you, Andrew? ;)

But $19,000 (roughly 13,500 GBP today) is even finer. Montes seem to draw a good price in Italy and Germany nowadays and the UK prices seem to be improving significantly, too, as your post reflects. Scorpions also seem to be finally be getting a bit more respect in the price arena.

All-in-all it's a great thing IMO.

[1,6 HF]

Ed, I wouldn't dream of attempting such a thing, nor do I believe my posts have suggested that I would wish to. I have merely tried to point out that originality isn't all it's cracked up to be, and that one shouldn't be afraid to alter and improve. After all, if we all thought like that then a car would never evolve into a Series 2, would it...? ...

You'll forgive me if I'm misreading your earlier posts, but you said,

"Taken absolutely literally, S2 Montes are not original because they are an altered S1. Sure, I'm not stupid, I know the point is they are original insomuch as that's how they left the factory but! They are not true to the original car. I see no difference in buying a car 2nd hand that has been "altered" or "improved" by the PO. "
As I read that, you're trying to redefine the word "original"; it's certainly more than just pointing out that "originality isn't all it's cracked up to be".


And as for "there is no Originality Police...", you're having a laugh surely!? Ever met a Concours judge? Rip you apart because you used the wrong kind of washers on your headlight adjusters...! Those guys are anal. ...

Again, I'm just reading your earlier post. You weren't talking about concours judges. Rather you said,

"Imagine if you had to live with [perceived design flaws] forever because the Originality Police said you had to because that's the way it was designed!"
Those anal concours judges may deduct dozens of points, but they can't prevent you from altering your car, which is what you were talking about in the earlier post. No one's preventing you from altering your car, and no one's forcing you to enter it in a concours. So, no, there is no Originality Police as you were using the term.

So, no offense intended, but I'll stand by my previous comments.

[HF Stinger]

All's I got to say is: Where is all the money coming from to pay these prices for these cars?

I thought everyone was broke - everywhere.

It takes at least two buyers interested for a car to approach $10-$15k Are people legitimately bidding on these cars?

[Will]

All's I got to say is: Where is all the money coming from to pay these prices for these cars?

I thought everyone was broke - everywhere.

It takes at least two buyers interested for a car to approach $10-$15k Are people legitimately bidding on these cars?

Considering Craigslist has listings for a 76 for $1500 in Maine, a 77 for $2500 in Atlanta and another 77 for the same price in Philadelphia, a 77 in Denver, 76's in Portland, Phoenix and Seattle, I think you may see some of those ebay cars relisted soon.

Just a hunch.

[Andrew S]

As I read that, you're trying to redefine the word "original"; it's certainly more than just pointing out that "originality isn't all it's cracked up to be".

I was not trying to redefine "original" at all; I was actually attempting to illustrate the difficulty in deciding what actually IS original. Let me put it this way: No Scorpion is truly original. It can be "factory original" in that it may be the same as the day it left the factory but so what? The Scorpion was never true to any original design- it was altered, modified and bastardized to suit silly local legislation. Yes, yes, I know, if they had never done that then you guys would never have had the car in America so I understand how you're all glad they did do that but, come on, you have to take that point, surely? That's the best analogy I can come up with to clarify my way of thinking. Feel free to disagree but (and this is in no way meant to sound arrogant because I'm not) I can't see how you can.




You weren't talking about concours judges. Rather you said,

"Imagine if you had to live with [perceived design flaws] forever because the Originality Police said you had to because that's the way it was designed!"
Those anal concours judges may deduct dozens of points, but they can't prevent you from altering your car, which is what you were talking about in the earlier post. No one's preventing you from altering your car, and no one's forcing you to enter it in a concours. So, no, there is no Originality Police as you were using the term.

I used the Concours judge purely to illustrate the point. I see and hear the Originality Police at every Classic Car Show I go to, nit-picking over details as they wander round the cars. "It's got the wrong tyres on... those wheels came out in '79, the car's a '74... Oh! My! God! He's chromed the bracket, idiot, it should be anodised..."
You're quite right, no-one's forcing me to enter my car into a Concours and nor would I ever wish to. I maintain it is always interesting to see originality; especially when it's worthy of being kept that way. I enjoyed keeping my 308 as original as possible when I had it but those comments listed above were aimed at my old Ferrari by a fully paid up member of the O.P. and said in such a derogatory manner that the guy made me puke.


So, no offense intended, but I'll stand by my previous comments.

Absolutely none taken and my original post was only ever intended to stimulate some interesting opinions on the subject matter...

Oh, and DJ, NOTHING is ever too provocative for me... as a musician I do see life. Lol!

Andrew.

[1,6 HF]

I was not trying to redefine "original" at all; I was actually attempting to illustrate the difficulty in deciding what actually IS original. Let me put it this way: No Scorpion is truly original. It can be "factory original" in that it may be the same as the day it left the factory but so what? The Scorpion was never true to any original design- it was altered, modified and bastardized to suit silly local legislation. Yes, yes, I know, if they had never done that then you guys would never have had the car in America so I understand how you're all glad they did do that but, come on, you have to take that point, surely? That's the best analogy I can come up with to clarify my way of thinking. Feel free to disagree but (and this is in no way meant to sound arrogant because I'm not) I can't see how you can. ...

No one else seems to be having much "difficulty in deciding what actually IS original".

The term "original" is almost universally taken to mean "original as it left the factory". And based on the emphasized quotes above, you want "original" to mean "true to its original design".

No car that ever left a production line was "true to its original design". No "original" prototype has ever made it to production unchanged, and therefore, using your purported definition, no production car is "truly original". Some may be closer, and some may be farther away, but none is "original" as you want to use that term.

So, yes, you're trying to redefine the term "original", and your definition of the term renders it essentially meaningless in the context of production cars.

That's the point I've been trying to make. I don't know how it could possibly more clear, and I honestly don't see how you can keep claiming otherwise. In any case, this is the last time I'll make it on this thread.

[Andrew S]

No one else seems to be having much "difficulty in deciding what actually IS original".

I agree, they don't, including the Oxford English Dictionary: "The first and genuine form of something, from which others are derived".


The term "original" is almost universally taken to mean "original as it left the factory".

Agreed, but that's 6 words, not 1...and is that correct? Personally, I don't think so, which is my point exactly. It is, in reality and in your words, essentially meaningless.


And based on the emphasized quotes above, you want "original" to mean "true to its original design".

I don't WANT it to mean that; it just DOES.


No car that ever left a production line was "true to its original design". No "original" prototype has ever made it to production unchanged, and therefore, using your purported definition, no production car is "truly original".

...the term renders it essentially meaningless in the context of production cars.



Agreed in principle. Except for the "purported definition" bit. ;-)

We got there in the end, eh Ed?

I think the bottom line here is... It's a Lancia Beta. And while some Lancias might be worth big money, the Beta/Monte/Scorpion isn't. I remember seeing one sell here in the UK for £33,000 in 1989 when Classic Car values went crazy, but that's not gonna happen again. You wouldn't dare to change the headlights on a Boxer or a Countach because you just don't mess with cars like that. I love Lancias of all varieties, Fulvias, Gammas and especially Betas because they're what I grew up with. But are they worthy of keeping "factory original"? To me, only if they are museum quality. Or if you are just simply 'into that' then fair enough. It's your car. That is a way of thinking adopted by a great many Montecarlo owners, which is why you see so many with modifications. Tuned engines, different lights, better brakes, different colours, leather interiors etc. I love the mods. It's great to see what the Monte could have been... originally. ;-)

Andrew.

[1,6 HF]

..We got there in the end, eh Ed?...

Clearly not. And the fact that you think so underscores the futility of our continuing this argument.

What we need now is the definition of "sophistry"...

[John O]

Now all we need is the definition of "sophistry"...

I think THIS ONE (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sophistry) will do.

[Andrew S]

Clearly not. And the fact that you think so underscores the futility of our continuing this argument.

Ha ha ha. "We got there in the end" was just metaphorical sarcasm Ed. I thought you might've picked up on that and afforded me a wry smile but maybe not... 'Sophistry' is a great word Ed and, whilst I appreciate the self-deprecation you really shouldn't put yourself down like that... ;-)

Andrew.

[1,6 HF]

Ha ha ha. "We got there in the end" was just metaphorical sarcasm Ed. I thought you might've picked up on that and afforded me a wry smile but maybe not...

Your previous post involved some of the weakest logic and some of the most intellectually dishonest editing I've run across in quite some time, but I was trying to end the discussion without using language any stronger than 'sophistry'. Maybe it's just better to respond in kind. With a wry smile, of course.


I agree, ... I ...WANT .. to ...think ..., but that's not gonna happen...

[Andrew S]

Ha! Nice one! That's funny!!
We DID get there in the end...
Agree to differ, that's the best we can do. That's human nature. I see it one way, and believe I have supported that. You see it another way, and believe you have supported that. I'm sure we would've enjoyed the discussion much better over a beer but with a few thousand miles between us this marvellous forum was a great substitute.

Andrew.

[Allan Sieben]

But I like the pop-up headlights.:) When I was first introduced to the Scorpion, I always new it as the Scorpion. It wasn't until much later that I learned of it's roots starting out as the Beta Montecarlo in Europe.
My first site and knowledge of these cars came long after their introduction and tenure here in Canada. I was a teenager in the mid seventies, and had my eyes more focused on girls than cars at the time.

My point being that to me, the Scorpion is still king! Yes, the original version of the cleaned-up front clip looks absolutely stunning. But there's something about those pop-up lights that are alluring too. It's kinda cool to have an X1/9 and a Scorpion who share similar design developments. I wouldn't trade my pop-ups fer nuttin'.;)

[Will]

But I like the pop-up headlights.:) [\quote]

I think you are the only one! LOL!

[quote]
It's kinda cool to have an X1/9 and a Scorpion who share similar design developments. I wouldn't trade my pop-ups fer nuttin'.;)

Mechanically similar, although the boxy Bertone X and the curvy streamlined Pinin Monte are quite dissimilar stylisticaly IMO. And yes, that's just my opinion and I'm not knocking you if you like the X styling, I just feel the Monte has an elegant continuity of line that the angular X lacks, kind of like comparing a 308 to a first-gen MR2.YMMV.

[John O]

...boxy Bertone X and the curvy streamlined Pinin Monte are quite dissimilar stylisticaly IMO. And yes, that's just my opinion and I'm not knocking you if you like the X styling, I just feel the Monte has an elegant continuity of line that the angular X lacks...

One of the things I love is a PF vs. Bertone discussion. I like them both for different reasons, and I mean the specific cars we're talking about and the houses' design traditions in general. I always felt the Scorp/Monte was PF borrowing some of Bertone's angularity schtick. To see both cars out on the road as I have on DC Fiats drives, I have to say that the X looks to me a bit more agile and business-like when in the curves as it's aspect changes rapidly to the viewer. The Scorp looks more at home on the highway, appearing more powerful and stately. Frankly, I think they both drive a bit that way too.

...and ya, about the Scorp headlights... when I first got my Scorp, DJ said I would get used to and eventually prefer the '76 solid sail panels, which I definitely have. Never said anything 'bout the headlights. The X's pop-ups just add to the general WTF funky quality of the car overall, but Scorps IMO kill some truly lovely sweeping lines when they are up.

All opinion there, no agreement necessary.

John O.

[Andrew S]

...I always felt the Scorp/Monte was PF borrowing some of Bertone's angularity schtick.

I've always thought exactly the same! I would say from below the window line it's more Bertone than Pininfarina; above it's obviously Pininfarina and, not only that but one of their finest works ever.

I used to own an X1/9 1500 and it was, without doubt, the best car I've ever owned through the twisty bits. Like driving a Kart.

Andrew.

[HF Stinger]

So there are crackheads in the heartland...

That poor blue hallowed shell of a scorpion didn't draw more than what - 400 bux by the time it closed.

The owner just relisted it with an opening bid of $2999. LMFAO bless his heart...